Judaism

[Willem]

Hi,

found article with the following references, would like to know if anyone can corroborate or debunk.

Regards
Willem

Endnotes:
1 The Talmud said Jesus was, along with Balaam and Titus, one of the three greatest enemies of Judaism (Gittin 56b-57a). The New Testament confirms that the Pharisees considered Christ demon-possessed (John 8:48), a charlatan empowered by the devil (Matt. 12:24), a deceiver (Matt. 27:6), a blasphemer (Jn. 10:36), and having an unclean spirit (Mk. 3:30). The Talmud says He was a bastard, son of adulterous Mary (Sanhedrin 106b). He was hung on the eve of Passover because He was a sorcerer and apostate (Sanh. 43a). He was a fool who fell down and worshipped a brick (Sanh. 67a). He was executed by stoning, burning, decapitation, and strangling (Sanh. x.2:90a). Jews are encouraged to lecture against Christ (Sanh. 106b). Christ is in hell, wallowing in boiling hot excrement (Git. 56b-57a).
The Talmud recommends persecution of Christians. Christians are heretics (Abodah Zarah 16b), apostates (Shabbethai 116). Christians may be legally thrown into a pit to die (AZ, 26b). Christians deserve death for observing the Sabbath (even though they observe the Noahide laws) (Sanh. 58b) and studying the Old Testament (Sanh. 59a). Christianity is an unforgivable sin, seducing Jews to idolatry (AZ 17a). The testimony of a Christian is unworthy to be admitted to a Jewish court (Shulshan Aruk, Hoshen Mishpat 34,31). Jews are forbidden to return a lost article to a Christian (HM 266,2). Matthew, Luke, Nicodemus, and Thaddeus were executed as heretics (Jewish Encyclopedia, "Jesus," page 171). Jews should rejoice, dress in white, and eat, drink, and be merry at the death of a Christian. They should hate a Christian with utmost hatred and consider him an enemy (Semahot ch. 2, p. 35).
The Zohar sanctions killing of Gentiles, including Christians. "Take the life of the Kliphoth [Gentile and Christian] and kill them, and you will please God the same as one who offers incense to Him." (Sephar or Israel 177b) "The people of the earth are idolaters, and it has been written of them, 'Let them be wiped off the face of the earth.'" (I 25, Pranaitis translation, "The Talmud Unmasked," p. 80) "When these shall be exterminated, it will be as if God had made heaven and earth on that day." (I, Bere****h, 25b) "At the moment when the Holy One, blessed be he, will exterminate all the goyim of the world….the Lord alone will appear great on that day." (Sec. Vayschlah, folio 177b, de Pauly translation) "It is certain our captivity will last until the princes of the Gentiles who worship idols are destroyed." (I, 219, Pranaitis, p. 80) "In the palaces of the fourth heaven are those who lamented over Sion and Jerusalem, and all those who destroyed idolatrous nations, and those who killed off people who worship idols…" (I, 38b, 39a)
The preface to the Soncino edition of the Zohar says: "The Zohar appeals to many Jews in a way that makes them regard it as the most sacred of sacred books! For it mirrors Judaism as an intensely vital religion of the spirit. More overpoweringly than any other book or code, or even than the Bible, does it give to the Jew a conviction of an inner, unseen spiritual universe - an eternal moral order." (p.12)

[Fenris]

Oh dear. Where to even begin?

Hi,

found article with the following references, would like to know if anyone can corroborate or debunk.

Regards

Where did you find the article? These are some of the worst antisemitic canards about the Talmud.

Endnotes:
1 The Talmud said Jesus was, along with Balaam and Titus, one of the three greatest enemies of Judaism (Gittin 56b-57a). The New Testament confirms that the Pharisees considered Christ demon-possessed (John 8:48), a charlatan empowered by the devil (Matt. 12:24), a deceiver (Matt. 27:6), a blasphemer (Jn. 10:36), and having an unclean spirit (Mk. 3:30). The Talmud says He was a bastard, son of adulterous Mary (Sanhedrin 106b). He was hung on the eve of Passover because He was a sorcerer and apostate (Sanh. 43a). He was a fool who fell down and worshipped a brick (Sanh. 67a). He was executed by stoning, burning, decapitation, and strangling (Sanh. x.2:90a). Jews are encouraged to lecture against Christ (Sanh. 106b). Christ is in hell, wallowing in boiling hot excrement (Git. 56b-57a).

It's difficult to make the case that the Talmud mentions Jesus at all. Most of the above references do not mention him by name- they are referring to other, named, people. The two times someone names 'Yeshu' is mentioned are not contemporaneous with Jesus's lifetime. One was 'Yeshu Ben Stada', who lived about the year 100AD. His stepfather was someone named 'Pappos Ben Yehudah'. He doesn't sound like the NT character. The second one is 'Yeshu Ben Pandira' who lived about 80BC. We know little about him.

The Talmud recommends persecution of Christians.

OK, these I'll handle one by one since they are applications of law and not obscure refrences.

Christians are heretics (Abodah Zarah 16b), apostates (Shabbethai 116).

According to most rabbis, Christians are practicing a monotheistic(more or less) religion and are fine with God. I also never heard of "Shabbethai", whatever that is.

Christians may be legally thrown into a pit to die (AZ, 26b).

I don't know what "AZ" is. Regardless, killing Christians is just as illegal is killing Jews.

Christians deserve death for observing the Sabbath (even though they observe the Noahide laws) (Sanh. 58b)

Christians don't even observe sabbath on the same day.

and studying the Old Testament (Sanh. 59a).

What's wrong with that?

Christianity is an unforgivable sin, seducing Jews to idolatry (AZ 17a)

Well, Christianity is idolatry for a Jew. But then, don't you guys consider Judaism as it is practiced today to be idolatry? So you can call other religions false but other religions can't say that to you? But I digress...

. The testimony of a Christian is unworthy to be admitted to a Jewish court (Shulshan Aruk, Hoshen Mishpat 34,31).

This is true.

Also, non-practicing Jews may not testify in front of a religious court.

Jews are forbidden to return a lost article to a Christian (HM 266,2).

On the contrary- a Jew is obligated to return a lost item to a non-Jew. Also, what is "HM"?

Matthew, Luke, Nicodemus, and Thaddeus were executed as heretics (Jewish Encyclopedia, "Jesus," page 171).

What is the Jewish Encyclopedia and why should I care what it says?

Jews should rejoice, dress in white, and eat, drink, and be merry at the death of a Christian. They should hate a Christian with utmost hatred and consider him an enemy (Semahot ch. 2, p. 35).

What is "Semahot"? The claim is nonsense. Christians die every day. Should I walk around rejoicing all the time?

The Zohar sanctions killing of Gentiles, including Christians. "Take the life of the Kliphoth [Gentile and Christian] and kill them, and you will please God the same as one who offers incense to Him." (Sephar or Israel 177b)

The ten commandements prohibits murder.

"The people of the earth are idolaters, and it has been written of them, 'Let them be wiped off the face of the earth.'" (I 25, Pranaitis translation, "The Talmud Unmasked," p. 80)

"When these shall be exterminated, it will be as if God had made heaven and earth on that day." (I, Bere****h, 25b)

"At the moment when the Holy One, blessed be he, will exterminate all the goyim of the world….the Lord alone will appear great on that day." (Sec. Vayschlah, folio 177b, de Pauly translation)

]What source is this? "It is certain our captivity will last until the princes of the Gentiles who worship idols are destroyed." (I, 219, Pranaitis, p. 80) "In the palaces of the fourth heaven are those who lamented over Sion and Jerusalem, and all those who destroyed idolatrous nations, and those who killed off people who worship idols…" (I, 38b, 39a)

These are all utter nonsense.

The preface to the Soncino edition of the Zohar says: "The Zohar appeals to many Jews in a way that makes them regard it as the most sacred of sacred books! For it mirrors Judaism as an intensely vital religion of the spirit. More overpoweringly than any other book or code, or even than the Bible, does it give to the Jew a conviction of an inner, unseen spiritual universe - an eternal moral order." (p.12)

Perhaps. On the other hand, the Zohar is almost impossible to understand. It covers many metaphysical concepts. It doesn't call for the death of gentiles or other assorted nonsense.

[Jerome1]

The Talmud says He was a bastard, son of adulterous Mary (Sanhedrin 106b). He was hung on the eve of Passover because He was a sorcerer and apostate (Sanh. 43a).

Thanks, I was looking for this reference before and couldn't find it. Someone told me before that the Talmud states Christ was the result of an adulterous relationship between Mary and a Roman solider, but i couldn't find the reference.

[Fenris]

That's great. I post a refutation, and you run with the untrue refrence anyway. I don't know why I bother.

[HisLeast]

That's great. I post a refutation, and you run with the untrue refrence anyway. I don't know why I bother.

I always appreciate your input Fenris.

[Fenris]

I always appreciate your input Fenris.

Thank you.... it's tiring dealing with this stuff.

[Ta-An]

That's great. I post a refutation, and you run with the untrue refrence anyway. I don't know why I bother.

1+1 = 2
3+3 = 6
3+4 = 7
9+1 = 11
2+3 = 5

What do you observe....

Sorri not trying to derail this thread, just making an observation.....

Many will say.... Silly, don't you know that 9+1 = 10 and NOT 11

But what about the rest?? what about the others that are correct??

Sorri.......

[Willem]

Oh dear. Where to even begin?

HI Fenris,

Thats why I posted here, I knew I would get some answers and the truth hoepfully, I appreciate the patience and if you will bear with me I want to get to the truth.

Where did you find the article? These are some of the worst antisemitic canards about the Talmud.

On the net, where else, was a link on a page to a link ... BUT you are helping me to weed out the rubbish from the facts

It's difficult to make the case that the Talmud mentions Jesus at all. Most of the above references do not mention him by name-

OK , but why not, I mean after everything He did and claimed?
Are there no records in Jewish history of Him? I mean even the Romans and Greeks mention him, sometimes more than their own rulers etc.

OK, these I'll handle one by one since they are applications of law and not obscure refrences.

According to most rabbis, Christians are practicing a monotheistic(more or less) religion and are fine with God.

? We worship ,a blasphemer and that's ok? I don't follow... unless they are tacitly admitting Jesus was the Messiah ?... this answer.... I dont know

I don't know what "AZ" is. Regardless, killing Christians is just as illegal is killing Jews.

Note to self, READ before posting... ten commandments

Christians don't even observe sabbath on the same day.

Right DITTO ... I get the anti-semetic .... stupid argument that one...

Well, Christianity is idolatry for a Jew. But then, don't you guys consider Judaism as it is practiced today to be idolatry?

Honestly I never thought about religion much till 2 years ago,just did it. BUT now, I know GOD was , and is and will be ( sort of changes everything ? don't you agree? ) and the only difference between us is believing or not what Jesus said about himself

So you can call other religions false but other religions can't say that to you? But I digress...

No we can not! Pot calling kettle black, just does not ring true... the point is not if we are called false religion, but what penalties / actions will be applied due to that.

Personally, I will not judge,even though the Bible teaches any other way than Jesus is wrong, I will not judge for it is not mine to judge... all I can do is pray and tell people about Jesus. If asked ,the bible teaches that perfect religion is this:"to take care of children who have no fathers and of widows who are in trouble, and to keep oneself untouched by the world."To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

This is true.

Question now becomes , what does religious court decide and in a Judaic ( ? apologies if wrong ) state ; will that be the high court of the land? Can I testify and or defend myself there..

Perhaps. On the other hand, the Zohar is almost impossible to understand. It covers many metaphysical concepts. It doesn't call for the death of gentiles or other assorted nonsense.

Fenris, thanks for the response, cleared up quite a few issues here for me.

Is there perhaps copy of Talmud / explanation what difference is between Talmud and Greek septuagint which froms basis for my bible's old testament? website etc? Know a lot will be lost in translation, but at least it will be more relaible to read myself than unkonwn referances like this I came across...

[Fenris]

HI Fenris,

Thats why I posted here, I knew I would get some answers and the truth hoepfully, I appreciate the patience and if you will bear with me I want to get to the truth.

Yes, let us do that. The truth is important.

OK , but why not, I mean after everything He did and claimed?
Are there no records in Jewish history of Him? I mean even the Romans and Greeks mention him, sometimes more than their own rulers etc.

He is not mentioned in the Talmud at all. Neither are the subjects of any other religions. The Talmud is a compendium of Jewish law, not comparative theology.

? We worship ,a blasphemer and that's ok? I don't follow... unless they are tacitly admitting Jesus was the Messiah ?... this answer.... I dont know

The Jewish understanding is that only Jews are required to follow the rather strict rules in the the bible. Other peoples have somewhat relaxed standards of what they may and may not worship.

Honestly I never thought about religion much till 2 years ago,just did it. BUT now, I know GOD was , and is and will be ( sort of changes everything ? don't you agree? ) and the only difference between us is believing or not what Jesus said about himself

Hmm. Well, the differences are sometimes glaring and sometimes subtle. I have said many times here that Christianity is a fine religion for gentiles, that definitely brings people closer to God. I just don't think it's the truth.

No we can not! Pot calling kettle black, just does not ring true... the point is not if we are called false religion, but what penalties / actions will be applied due to that.

I don't think there's any penalties for a non-Jew being Christian.

Personally, I will not judge,even though the Bible teaches any other way than Jesus is wrong, I will not judge for it is not mine to judge... all I can do is pray and tell people about Jesus. If asked ,the bible teaches that perfect religion is this:"to take care of children who have no fathers and of widows who are in trouble, and to keep oneself untouched by the world."To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

I can't argue with that.

Question now becomes , what does religious court decide and in a Judaic ( ? apologies if wrong ) state ; will that be the high court of the land? Can I testify and or defend myself there..

The point is moot- Jewish religious courts today have no power. they do...what? Weddings, divorces, conversions...that's pretty much it.

Fenris, thanks for the response, cleared up quite a few issues here for me.

I am glad that I could be of assistance.

Is there perhaps copy of Talmud / explanation what difference is between Talmud and Greek septuagint which froms basis for my bible's old testament? website etc? Know a lot will be lost in translation, but at least it will be more relaible to read myself than unkonwn referances like this I came across...

If you're interested in the Jewish perspective, Artscroll is the best. It has the bible, translated into english, with interesting Jewish commentary.

[Dani H]

If you're interested in the Jewish perspective, Artscroll is the best. It has the bible, translated into english, with interesting Jewish commentary.

This web site reminds me of popular Christian book/Bible sites. Wow. Except it's very foreign to me, like a different language. I can now imagine how you must feel perusing ours ... makes me appreciate you sticking around here even more.

Stupid question: What's the difference between Tanach and Torah? And what would you recommend for a total Jewishness noob with perhaps just a bit of a glimpse but most of that probably jaded?

[Diggindeeper]

I prefer to accept the refutation supplied by Fenris. Thank you, Fenris.

Honestly, my heart's desire is to grow closer and closer to Almighty God.
And I honestly believe there would be no Christian religion had it not been from the Jewish people and their God. I see Jesus, and Christianity, as the Branch.

It hurts me to see Christians or Jewish people so hated by so many. It hurts me to see Jesus spoken about in the manner presented in the first post of this thread. I saw nothing but hatred in what was quoted. I pray you can see that hatred also, and throw the quotes in the trash where it belongs. May you find truth, and in the truth, may you find peace.

I often wonder why, WHY, are the Jews AND the Christians so hated around the world. People we don't even know want to wipe us off the face of the earth.

All I can do is pray for them...

[Fenris]

I prefer to accept the refutation supplied by Fenris. Thank you, Fenris.

You are welcome. I'm glad people see that the Talmud is not some horrible evil secret book...

I often wonder why, WHY, are the Jews AND the Christians so hated around the world. People we don't even know want to wipe us off the face of the earth.

My 2 cents? Because they hate God for eventually holding them to account for their behavior. But they can't hurt God. So they hurt us instead.

[Dani H]

You are welcome. I'm glad people see that the Talmud is not some horrible evil secret book...

My 2 cents? Because they hate God for eventually holding them to account for their behavior. But they can't hurt God. So they hurt us instead.

Oh, they can hurt God. By hurting His people. If somebody wanted to really get to you, they wouldn't hurt you, they would hurt your children ...

[Ta-An]

Are all the Torah's glossy pages full of pictures??

[Fenris]

You have to make the pictures in your head usually