The flesh

[Sirus]

Greetings Sirus,

Be assured that I am not here to convince anybody of anything....God is the Great Convincer of men....all Glory goes to him.

As you are probably aware, we are to be in this world but not of it, and when observing the World I have noticed a definite trend.

However you must first understand, that I am nobodys Judge...lest I be Judged, yet I have noticed a...way... of this World.

The way of the World today is....actualy those first seven words should start spiritual alarm bells ringing in the heart of the elect, so I will repeat them.

The Way of the World today seems to be that a heterosexual, will base their right standing with God on their Sexuality or what their flesh does, then Judge sombody of different sexuality at the same time.

A double wammy !

I think it is a very alarming trend indeed.

Grace and Peace to you

Well now I see how you intended 'disposed to', and I agree. Of course those that live after the flesh are not in 'right standing with God'. I don't think anyone would disagree with that and I don't see anything in holyrokker's post that indicated he did either, so I wonder why you mentioned it. Like holyrokker, I was referring to man being made with flesh (Gen 2:7).

You said;
After God caused Adam to Sin, he removed Adam from the Garden, because man still has a million things to experience first...before becoming like God!
God caused Adam to sin? Really? What scripture do you have for that?


Since when has clay had right over the clay ?
Since the clay was made at creation? Who made decisions for the clay in Jer 18?


1 Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.
Condemnation in Romans 8 only refers to the judgment in Adam. It doesn't seem that is how you are using the word so, why do Christians end up in condemnation? 1Co 11:34, 1Ti 3:6, Jam 5:12


1...Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit,
So a Christian cannot walk after the flesh? That's not it says. It says you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if Christ is in you. What they walk after is another story all together.

[Just_Another_Guy]

We're really walking in a dead perishing body right now. Our flesh is in a constant decaying state..and we are in a dead or perishable form even before our transformation and emergence into God's new kingdom..despite whether or not we act on the flesh's desires or not. Anyone who tells you that they are in a completely perfected state before having been transformed and perfected by God is a liar, and there is no truth within them. Even Christ was made perfect by God, as the Apostle Paul states in Hebrews 2:10.

I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit on this..Job was described as a perfect man by God(Job 1:8), and I think Noah was probably considered to be in the same boat as Job. Christ describes and asks us to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect(Matthew 5:48) Now I don't think Jesus was saying for us to be able to transfigure ourselves like him into new spiritual bodies..I do think he was insinuating that we could indeed reach some sort of spiritual perfection...in this walk and not worry about any stumbling blocks. Think about what John states in his gospel(1 John 3:2) When we see him, we will be like him..everyone who has this hope purifies himself..even as he is pure. So I think we are pure or "perfect" in our walk through our faith in Christ. This doesn't advocate lawlessness though, but it does advocate us to walk in faith and love to produce peace..love, and kindness to others within our walks. God bless.

[Friend of I AM]

I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit on this..Job was described as a perfect man by God(Job 1:8), and I think Noah was probably considered to be in the same boat as Job. Christ describes and asks us to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect(Matthew 5:48) Now I don't think Jesus was saying for us to be able to transfigure ourselves like him into new spiritual bodies..I do think he was insinuating that we could indeed reach some sort of spiritual perfection...in this walk and not worry about any stumbling blocks. Think about what John states in his gospel(1 John 3:2) When we see him, we will be like him..everyone who has this hope purifies himself..even as he is pure. So I think we are pure or "perfect" in our walk through our faith in Christ. This doesn't advocate lawlessness though, but it does advocate us to walk in faith and love to produce peace..love, and kindness to others within our walks. God bless.

I just don't like saying "I'm perfect." I just like to leave judgements like that up to God...that's all I'm saying. I've seen first hand what people with "great faith" can do..sometimes they think their faith can justify just about everything they do...and I don't think that's the type of faith that Jesus was advocating. If you feel comfortable calling yourself perfect in God's eyes that's fine...I'm just going to be a little bit reserved and state that I'll wait until God says something on the matter..and be concious of nothing before the appointed time...that's all I'm saying..grace.

[Friend of I AM]

Edit..whoops wrong thread..

[Just_Another_Guy]

I just don't like saying "I'm perfect." I just like to leave judgements like that up to God...that's all I'm saying. I've seen first hand what people with "great faith" can do..sometimes they think their faith can justify just about everything they do...and I don't think that's the type of faith that Jesus was advocating. If you feel comfortable calling yourself perfect in God's eyes that's fine...I'm just going to be a little bit reserved and state that I'll wait until God says something on the matter..and be concious of nothing before the appointed time...that's all I'm saying..grace.

Gotcha. Keep on running the race. Love God, and Love one another...and you'll do fine. God bless.

[Friend of I AM]

Personally I think we are all still flesh along with all that is associated with it UNLESS you happen to know someone who is already in their incorruptable, changed new body to match their born again spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:14
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

John 11:24-27
Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world."

I think it's possible that some people may be with God right now based on the verses above. I don't know of anyone off hand, but I'm sure it's possible.

[Spirit Driven]

Well now I see how you intended 'disposed to', and I agree. Of course those that live after the flesh are not in 'right standing with God'. I don't think anyone would disagree with that and I don't see anything in holyrokker's post that indicated he did either, so I wonder why you mentioned it. Like holyrokker, I was referring to man being made with flesh (Gen 2:7).

You said;
After God caused Adam to Sin, he removed Adam from the Garden, because man still has a million things to experience first...before becoming like God!
God caused Adam to sin? Really? What scripture do you have for that?

See my thread, The Incident in the Garden, post there if you like


Since when has clay had right over the clay ?
Since the clay was made at creation? Who made decisions for the clay in Jer 18?

I noticed in Romans 9 that in some Bibles God asks us, for who has resisted his (my) intention....and in some other Bible Translations he states...nobody can resist his (my) will.


1 Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.
Condemnation in Romans 8 only refers to the judgment in Adam. It doesn't seem that is how you are using the word so, why do Christians end up in condemnation? 1Co 11:34, 1Ti 3:6, Jam 5:12

I just take God at his word...Nothing means just that...Nothing, in the same way that all means just that...all


1...Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit,
So a Christian cannot walk after the flesh? That's not it says. It says you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if Christ is in you. What they walk after is another story all together.

Paul speaks of that it was for Freedom that Christ set us Free, so I guess you are dead in your Sins, or Dead to Sin.

To be dead to Sin means you are Free of your Sins in the midst of them, because you are still alive flesh and blood, and sinning less often, because instead of focusing on what your doing, and becomming a slave to that, you are focused on what Christ did right, and are a Slave to that.

You do not stop sinning, because that is not possible for the Flesh, but you Sin less often.

You will never stop sinning entirely, to remind you that your right standing with God will....never.... be because of anything you do or do not do.

Our right standing with God is solely and only because of the actions and deeds of Jesus Christ on our behalf....and for no other reason.


Peace

[holyrokker]

It refers to the physical body, as opposed to what is spiritual.

It's the same word used in verses such as Luke 3:6 "...and all flesh shall see the salvation of God."

It's also used in John 3:6 when Jesus said; "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

After Adam sinned, God drove him from the Garden of Eden, and banned him from the tree of life.

Genesis 3:22-24 "Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."

As a result, we also do not have access to the tree of life. When we are born, we are separated from God (spiritually).

That why Jesus said; "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' " (John 3:7)

Since we are born physically, not spiritually, we do not have the advantage of the Holy Spirit to direct our hearts and minds. We naturally do what the body desires.

Those desires aren't inherently sinful, though; just natural. (similar to animals?)

So when we begin to be aware of right and wrong, we are already accustomed to choosing whatever pleases the body (flesh).

If we get a sense that maybe giving into a particular desire is inappropriate in a certain instance, it's foreign to us.

That's why James can say:

James 1:14-15 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Once we've made a choice contrary to our conscience, we've sinned.

Romans 2:14-15 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

Once we've sinned, we are guilty, and condemned by our conscience, becoming slaves to sin.

Romans 6:15 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Romans 6:19 For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

5 For those who are in accord with flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit.


May I ask what has led you to believe that being disposed towards the flesh...or what the Flesh does...gives you right standing with God ?

Peace

I don’t believe that. What part of my post leads you to think that’s my belief?

[Spirit Driven]

Since we are born physically, not spiritually, we do not have the advantage of the Holy Spirit to direct our hearts and minds. We naturally do what the body desires.

Those desires aren't inherently sinful, though; just natural. (similar to animals?)

So when we begin to be aware of right and wrong, we are already accustomed to choosing whatever pleases the body (flesh).

If we get a sense that maybe giving into a particular desire is inappropriate in a certain instance, it's foreign to us.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not focus on the Flesh at all....you will only become enslaved to it.

Like the Christian that goes to confession twice a day everyday, has become a slave to sin.

Peace

[Walstib]

The verses you used testify to this. Since matter is not capable of embodying sin--again, because "sin" (transgression of the moral law) is a peculiarly consciousness-driven circumstance--the "lust of the flesh" cannot apply to literal flesh; lust is a certain quality inherent to human consciousness. Who ever heard of an arm or leg lusting? Hence, the NT teachers had to have in mind a contradistinction or comparison of certain terms they used to other realities. We "hear" physically by sound waves acting on atoms and we "hear" with the intellect, and the intellect is imho of necessity always in view where spirit and flesh are compared in the Bible unless context demands only its literal use.

Thanks for your reply Bernie,

You are on the exact focus I was looking at and make many great points I think. The Mat 5:28 verse and points you made speaks toward cutting off an arm if it sins I think. We sin, not something separate from us. That said we don't have to sin either.

Thanks for the stuff to chew on and the new words learned like contradistinction. Seems like I learn one or two a week around here.

Peace,
Joe

[Walstib]

Thanks for coming over Yuke!

8. The born again have sin living within their flesh that sins.

I can't wrap my head around this concept. Does this sin have a name? A personality? Who is this sin if it is doing something without the person?

We have sin abiding in our flesh, but no sin abides in our spirit. We are our spirit. The flesh is dead, profiting nothing.

We are our spirit? I guess I would ask first what you base this conclusion on. Who is our flesh if it is not us?

Therefore, Paul does not sin when he states, it is no longer he that does it, but the sin living within him.

To make sure I understand, you believe this whole chapter is Paul speaking from the perspective of a born again person?

Peace,
Joe

[holyrokker]

Thanks for your reply Bernie,

You are on the exact focus I was looking at and make many great points I think. The Mat 5:28 verse and points you made speaks toward cutting off an arm if it sins I think. We sin, not something separate from us. That said we don't have to sin either.

Thanks for the stuff to chew on and the new words learned like contradistinction. Seems like I learn one or two a week around here.

Peace,
Joe

Matthew 5:29-30 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Is this the passage you were thinking of?

Notice Jesus used the word if then causes. What causes us to sin? Our eyes or hands? Isn't it our own will that causes us to sin?

I take this as saying I need to "cut off" my own will - surrender to His will. That's the only way to be free from sin.

As Jesus said elsewhere "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Luke 9:23

[Walstib]

Notice Jesus used the word if then causes. What causes us to sin? Our eyes or hands? Isn't it our own will that causes us to sin?

I take this as saying I need to "cut off" my own will - surrender to His will. That's the only way to be free from sin.

Hi holyrokker,

That was the passage. I am in agreement with you I think...

I have seen people say that the flesh does things (does sinful acts) on it's own without "us". As Bernie said "Who ever heard of an arm or leg lusting?". As if we could cut off our hand and it actually solve the desires within us to sin.....

For another couple examples are these literally itching ears and adulterous eyes?

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; (2Ti 4:3 NKJV)

But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. (2Pe 2:12-14 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe

[holyrokker]

Hi holyrokker,

That was the passage. I am in agreement with you I think...

I have seen people say that the flesh does things (does sinful acts) on it's own without "us". As Bernie said "Who ever heard of an arm or leg lusting?". As if we could cut off our hand and it actually solve the desires within us to sin.....

For another couple examples are these literally ears itching and adulterous eyes?

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; (2Ti 4:3 NKJV)

But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. (2Pe 2:12-14 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe

I'm pretty certain that we'd be in agreement in saying that the ears themselves aren't itching, nor that the eyes themselves are committing adultery.

These are idiomatic expressions which indicate that those individuals have committed themselves fully to pursuing the sin they desire.

[Yukerboy]

Thanks for coming over Yuke!

You know me. I'm always up for a discussion about flesh.

I can't wrap my head around this concept. Does this sin have a name? A personality? Who is this sin if it is doing something without the person?

The flesh is no longer us. The flesh is the flesh.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

We are our spirit? I guess I would ask first what you base this conclusion on. Who is our flesh if it is not us?

The flesh is me, but it is not I. Confusing?

The born again are spiritual. The flesh remains flesh.

To make sure I understand, you believe this whole chapter is Paul speaking from the perspective of a born again person?

Absolutely. Paul states in this chapter "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. "

For that to be a sinner, then Paul is saying the sinner doesn't sin, but the sin dwelling within his flesh does. If that is a sinner, then Paul has declared sinners to be sinless as it is no longer they that sin.