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Thread: The flesh

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Okay but notice his mental process in Romans 7. The question he asks is, " Is the Law sin?" That is, is it bad? Is the law evil? Is it something to be avoided? In verse 8, I would argue, he begins to inform his readers of the true intent of the Law. God gave the law to serve a purpose. What is that purpose?

    Romans 7:8 *But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

    He points out that the Law serves to highlight sin in a special way. Not only does the Law define God's moral vision for everyone, but it also paints an existential picture for those who attempt to keep it. One might say to himself, "I can live a life without lust." Then the Law will say to the sinner, "Go ahead and try. See how far you get." The law becomes the opportunity (Paul's word) for the sinner to find out something about himself. Without a law to challenge the sinner, sin isn't a live issue. I could be lusting all the time, but until the Law challenges me to stop, I'll never know if it's actually possible to stop.

    And so Paul builds his case for why the Law is actually a good thing and not a bad thing.

    9 *And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died;
    10 *and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;


    That passage describes a moment of discovery Paul experienced when the commandment against coveting finally "came". We might say in our idiom, the Law finally "came home" to me. It finally got to me. It's implications concerning me as a sinner finally settled into my soul such that I was finally willing to admit to myself that I am a sinner.

    Out of the Ten Commandments, the Tenth is not doable. It is simply not possible to avoid an inner desire. We can hide it. We can ignore it. We can run around the room, or lift weights, go for a jog, or take a cold shower. But we can not remove our desire. We can avoid murder. We can avoid theft. We can avoid adultery. But we can't avoid WANTING another man's life. We can't avoid WANTING another man's stuff. We can't avoid WANTING another man's wife. And when the Law challenged Paul, "Okay don't want stuff." he found he couldn't comply.

    11 *for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.

    It must have been the sin of pride and presumption that induced him to take up the challenge of the commandment. It must have looked deceptively easy. But he lost the challenge and in the process he came to the realization that he was dead with respect to his search for God's favor.

    I should note here that Paul is revealing his mental process to his readers. In order to arrive at all these conclusions, especially the existential conclusions that he is a dead sinner he must already be in an internal dialog with God in which Paul is open and willing to look afresh at himself, his moral condition, and his standing before God. I would argue that this "righteous" view of himself is the work of the Spirit. Not that he is righteous, but he has the right, rational, true perspective on his condition. Only a child of God is willing to admit to himself that he is a dead sinner. Everyone else makes excuses, justifications, and rationalizations for it.

    12 *So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

    Conclusion: the law serves a good purpose. While a man can not use the Law to gain God's favor through his meritorious efforts; the law is useful as a mirror into which a man might learn to see himself as he really is. If the law is used properly, it is a good thing.

    13 *Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

    Here Paul defends those who would accuse him of saying, "out of good, evil has come." In his defense he points out that it was not the Law that caused his death; rather, it was in the process of his coming to learn the great hold of sin, that he died. In other words, it was the sin, not the law that became the result of his "death."

    Remember that Paul is describing a process of self-realization in which he abandons a faulty, distorted view of himself in favor of a more realistic and true view of himself. He refers to this as his "death" because he is speaking in terms of his condemnation -- his being declared guilty and worthy of punishment. Before his eyes were opened, he mistakenly believed he was "alive" -- not subject to punishment. But when his eyes were opened, he came to learn the truth about himself.

    He will set out to demonstrate that his "death" was not actually an evil thing but a good thing because in the process of coming to terms with the Law he discovered something else about himself.

    14 *For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

    We must be careful to understand his phrase "of flesh" in contrast with his assertion that the Law is "spiritual." When Paul says the Law is spiritual, he means the Law is the product of a rational mind, reflecting reason, common sense, what is fitting and what ought to done. So Paul is "of flesh" in exactly the opposite sense that the Law is rational. Paul is subject to the irrational as he goes on to explain.

    15 *For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
    16 *But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good.

    Paul admits to being subject to bouts of irrationality. Just like a man sold into slavery, he doesn't always get to do what HE wants to do. Sometimes he does the very thing he hates to do. By comparison to the rational law, he acts contrary to reason, doing the things he doesn't understand. But he concludes, and this is his main idea, if while he is acting irrationally he agrees with the Law, if he is doing what he hates to do while agreeing with what the law says ought to be done, he is confessing that the law is good.

    In other words, there is Paul, the one who sometimes acts contrary to good reason, especially as dictated in the law, which is the same guy who also agrees with the law while he does it. He goes on to explain that while he commits sin according to some irrational aspect of himself, he is able to stand aloof and above it all in order to allow the law to be critical of his actions and side with the law as it does.

    17 *So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me.
    18 *For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
    19 *For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish.
    20 *But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
    21 *I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good.
    22 *For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
    23 *but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

    And so we see that contained in the nature of a single man, a principle of evil that allows a man to joyfully concur with the Law of God, even as he is doing the very thing he hates and does not wish to do. He finds in himself the ultimate weirdness in that his very own members are at war with his own mind causing him to be a prisoner in his own body. And yet, even in this strange and awful state, he is able to maintain his aloof perspective on himself, the law, and his God. He is able to joyfully concur with the rational, moral vision contained in the law, even as he sees himself a prisoner of his own body.

    In my view, the fact that Paul is able to concur with the law, come to agreement about his true nature, lament and mourn over it, is substantial evidence that he is a born again believer. The processes of the inner man having a "dialog" with the Spirit of God as he comes to a true picture of himself and his hunger to be freed from his prison is all evidence that Paul has come to belief. His prayer of thanksgiving to God for the Lord Jesus Christ is also clear evidence of his right standing as a believer.

    And I think that all believers can say, without hesitation, that they serve the law of God with the mind, even if they find themselves, at times, serving the law of sin. Has any man truly transcended his sinful nature?
    I would have no problem with any of what you say until you get to where most go... and that is you ultimately... it as an excuse to continue in sin as opposed to Paul's point in that thanks be to Jesus... I can be free from even this.

    I am not saying at all that the Law of God is bad! God forbid I ever even think such as that. It is what Paul says it is... a teacher that teaches us what sin is. Nevertheless... it has no power to do anything but teach us what sin is. And while folks might think it the catch all end all and all one has to do is follow it.... they are simply setting themselves up for failure because of that nature of man. You cannot do it.

    Paul is not talking about being free from the law when he speaks of freedom. He is speaking of being free from the bondage of sin.

    Romans 7:23 *but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 *Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
    25 *Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


    He goes on to show us how we can even live our life free from the sin which binds the flesh... live by the Spirit and then you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh (enter into Romans 8).


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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProjectPeter View Post
    I would have no problem with any of what you say until you get to where most go... and that is you ultimately... it as an excuse to continue in sin as opposed to Paul's point in that thanks be to Jesus... I can be free from even this."
    Well, we can't base our exegesis on what others might to with it, can we? But if most people think, "aha, Paul is giving me an excuse to sin" then they haven't understood the answers he gave to the first two questions. Of course we shouldn't continue in sin.

    But as we stand at the threshold of chapter 8, our difference of opinion seems to be whether Paul sets out to teach us the technique of how to avoid sinning.

    I am not saying at all that the Law of God is bad! God forbid I ever even think such as that. It is what Paul says it is... a teacher that teaches us what sin is. Nevertheless... it has no power to do anything but teach us what sin is. And while folks might think it the catch all end all and all one has to do is follow it.... they are simply setting themselves up for failure because of that nature of man. You cannot do it.
    I totally agree with your perspective that the Law is a teacher, but has no power to do anything else. But the question we might explore is, has Paul set out to show us how to get such a power? I assume we will have different things to say about Romans 8.

    (I do wish we were able to get this far in our Romans discussion. )

    He goes on to show us how we can even live our life free from the sin which binds the flesh... live by the Spirit and then you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh (enter into Romans 8).
    I would love to. Would we be derailing the thread?

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Well, we can't base our exegesis on what others might to with it, can we? But if most people think, "aha, Paul is giving me an excuse to sin" then they haven't understood the answers he gave to the first two questions. Of course we shouldn't continue in sin.

    But as we stand at the threshold of chapter 8, our difference of opinion seems to be whether Paul sets out to teach us the technique of how to avoid sinning.

    I totally agree with your perspective that the Law is a teacher, but has no power to do anything else. But the question we might explore is, has Paul set out to show us how to get such a power? I assume we will have different things to say about Romans 8.

    (I do wish we were able to get this far in our Romans discussion. )

    I would love to. Would we be derailing the thread?
    Shoot no.... go ahead and start. I'll get to it.


    Visit our new website
    ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

    A.W. Tozer said,
    "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

    GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!


  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirus View Post
    Sorry to take so long. I was prayerfully meditating on all angles with scripture. I certainly see where you are coming from and understand why, but I keep coming back to these.....

    Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

    Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

    So let me ask you a question. The resurrection, is it physical? Was the resurrected Christ physical? I say both physical and spiritual. The Messiah walked through walls, could translate, and said touch and see I am flesh and bone (not blood), not a spirit. What else am I to conclude?

    Christ's glorified body, by which believers are sanctified, is not made with hands.
    That's what Col 2:11 says. Jesus was physically buried and physically raised by the Spirit. It was not just spiritual. It was not natural as in earthy or temporal. Physical and earthy are two different things. There are different kinds of flesh. Are not things in 'Heaven' that Moses saw and made the tabernacle after physical?
    Before Jesus was manifest in the flesh that was crucified He arguably was seen in OT times and ate with Abraham, wrestled with Jacob..... Though I would say the connection in fullness to the fallen creation was not present. This being the profound difference between a touchable appearance before being born of Mary and after ascension. Honestly I don't know enough to describe it in full, there is a mystery part of this, but the difference is what matters toward the focus of our conversation I think.

    So while you can call his resurrected body physical in a way, in another way I would say it was not connected to the the fallen creation in fullness. I don't know really how to put it better right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sirus View Post
    "Has our physical flesh been crucified, buried, raised and ascended with him?"
    That's a tough question. I can only say that it is in believing I am crucified buried and raised that I am delivered of my 'stronghold sins'. With that fruit, substance, and evidence, what do you think I should conclude?
    I figure that since we still have a full connection to the fallen creation, we are not the same as Christ yet. Like the circumcision in the verse verse below, there are reckonings. We can be circumcised without hands while our physical flesh remains uncircumcised. An actual change in us has happened, we are empowered and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and so much more giving us victory now, but there is still more to come. There are many other spiritual truths about us that are reckoned to us now while we wait and groan within ourselves for the fullness of them to be accomplished. Saved while at the same time being saved and at the same time waiting to be saved. Time is a funny thing. We are crucified with Him and yet still walking up the hill daily with our own cross.

    Then one can take word pictures used to describe something intangible to literally. That is part of this I think.

    I am also enjoying this conversation, thanks
    Joe

    In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Col 2:11-14 NKJV)

    For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. (Rom 8:22-25 NKJV)

    For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. (2Co 5:1-4 NKJV)

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walstib View Post
    Unfortunately Yuke as there are many things we do agree on, some of the things that you teach as so far away from what I believe I must say it is not as close as you think it is. Between having no freedom to think for ourselves and your view on sin and forgiveness... well after the cornerstone it seems even our foundations are different. I still love you
    Yuke,

    I trust I did not push you away from the discussion with this comment, the cornerstone is what matters the most and I am sure there are many important things we do agree upon. I think there is a good chance you may be born again

    I do still want to keep talking with you about this, not teach you but see if we can find agreement. There is allot of talk on Romans 7 here and rightly so for the topic. I am figuring this part is where we see things the most different.

    So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. (Rom 7:17 NASB)

    I am thinking you figure sin mentioned here is actually a force or something like that with a power or will of it's own. Is this a fair statement of what you believe? I'm trying to understand your view.

    Seeking agreement for the Glory of God,
    Joe

  6. #126
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    Hi Bernie,

    Sorry it took so long to get back to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie View Post
    Firstly, the disposition toward gluttony is a spiritual defect, while the disposition toward satisfying a need for sustenance is a biological urge. Different mechanics, I think. But might not a human simultaneously possess two different natures? I think this is true of spiritual things; any given person holds a variety of often contradictory values. And even in the natural realm, depending on how this duality played out, even natural biological urges can be rendered defective. For example, the defect known as cancer (and numerous other biological disorders) often stifle appetite, a defect which renders a natural urge unnatural.
    I wanted to say here that I think definitions are somewhat personal in the long run. We can mean the same thing using two different terms. I might not call what you are speaking of natures but I do agree with your points here. I think allot of this for me comes from not believing in "total depravity" and how this ties into the term nature as it is often used in theological camps that do believe this. Too often I think people are so rigid on their definitions that they miss the agreement they have with another person. If I were to agree to the term nature I would just qualify that these are within the same person-hood and not defining a separation of self.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie View Post
    One chilling facet of spiritual degeneration is its capacity to produce deception in the human mind. Jesus' detractors thought themselves, their theology and religiosity to be the very pinnacle and proprietorship of righteousness. Scary that the human mind holds within it the potential to embrace evil while believing that very evil to be good.
    I agree. I have often said there is "good flesh" but it is still flesh. Makes me think of Mark 10:18.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie View Post
    It may be for example that placing human ability and power to choose on too high an altar might lead to blinding the mind to the sovereignty of God--and deny Him the proper place in one's inner reflections.
    I think I understand you here, leading to self righteousness instead of God granted righteousness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie View Post
    At the same time, though, possession of the belief that man is fallen does not automatically--nor even logically, for that matter--lead to a denial that one has the capacity to serve God even in the midst of fallenness.
    I agree again, especially with my not believing in total depravity.

    Peace,
    Joe

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