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Thread: Only 144,000 Elect in the End Days

  1. #1
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    Only 144,000 Elect in the End Days

    This is very humbling to me, only 144,000 will be deemed elect in the eyes of God, that means the other 6 billion or so (probably more by that time) will be classified as "true sin".

    I guess my question is with the amount of Christians around the world, there is no way they can all be Elect. The numbers dont add up.

    Some theologians postulate that 144,000 really means millions because they interpret it as their offspring, but I'm not so sure about that.

    Opinions???

  2. #2
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    The 144,000 are specifically from the 12 tribes of Israel. Says nothing at all about the rest of the world, nor those to whom the 144K witness to.
    The number of saints, when it's all said and done, will be too numerous to count. Read the book for yourself and see what it actually says.

  3. #3
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    Hi:

    As Kahtar has mentioned, the 144K is not to be confused with "The Elect", nor with those who will eventually go to Heaven.

    The 144K, 12K from each of the 12 tribes, are those pure Israelites living during the Great Tribulation, who have been selected to be spared of the harshness of the remaining Tribulation (at the point they are spared of this harshness we are told that the 6th seal has been opened, so the harshness of the 6th seal, 7th seal, trumpets and bowls they are spared) - this can be read in Rev 6 & 7.

    These 144K later appear with The LAMB on Mount Zion (see Rev 14).

  4. #4
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    Posting some verses that I believe Kahtar was speaking of....

    After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:9-10 NKJV)


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walstib View Post
    The next verses may just have some relevent information.

    After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:9-10 NKJV)

    I'm aware of that verse, but were those people killed during Tribulation and then resurrected, or did they all survive the Tribulation???
    Because if they were killed during they couldnt have been sealed (or elect)

  6. #6
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    That direction of questioning is better for end times chat.

    All those found to be in Christ at any point in time are elect as I see it. Since he is The Elect. Then obviously that is something not all people agree about as well.

    Lets try a different angle.

    Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. (Act 2:41 NKJV).......
    ......praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Act 2:47 NKJV)

    However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. (Act 4:4 NKJV)

    There is 8 thousand in a few chapters with more added daily. Adds up quick.

    Or the angle of the children of Abraham being as the sand in the sea....

    Peace,
    Joe

  7. #7
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    The 144,000 & the twelve tribes of Israel
    The 144000 is an analogy, it is not a list of the tribes of Israel. Notice that, Even though Reuben is the firstborn instead of Judah, it begins with the tribe of Judah. Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah, and was the firstborn from the deadHe is put first. Rom 8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Col 1:15, 18. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Josephs is also listed along with his two sons. The Bible tells us Joseph gave his birthright (which should have been Reubens' 1Chr 5:1Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.) to his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh.
    Even though his two sons had the same land they are often spoken of as two separate tribes. Jacob also gave Ephraim the blessing and not Manasseh, who is the eldest, but we see Manasseh here and not his brother.

    Priests never inherited any land;Jos 14:3For Moses had given the inheritance of two tribes and an half tribe on the other side Jordan: but unto the Levites he gave none inheritance among them.The tribe of Levi is included here when they were never included in inheritance before; the reason is because we are a holy priesthood and a royal priesthood 1Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.1Peter 2:9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:


    This analogy does not have Dan probably because of Idolatry. In conclusion, If God was actually giving us a list of the tribes of Israel; He would have just put them in order of birth and inheritance, and wouldn't add or leave a Patriarch out.

    It then says that each one of them was sealed. A seal is made from wax that has been imprinted on with a signet ring. Today we use our name as our seal. Since it is a unique way of writing our name, it is a personal seal that we call our signature. We will only put our signature on thing that we agree to or approve of. This is saying that God has put his approval on them.2Corinth 1:22Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.Eph 1:13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 4:30 and grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    This is how the Tribes are placed in Revelation 7:5-8
    I will put the tribes' actual placement number to where it should be it the order of their birth

    The first name is Judah. #4.

    The second name is Reuben. #1.

    The third one is called Gad. #8.

    The fourth name is Asher. #9.

    The fifth name is Naphtali. #10.

    The sixth name is Manasseh.

    The seventh name is Simeon. #2.

    The eighth name is Levi. #3.

    The ninth name is Issachar. #6.

    The tenth named is Zebulon. #5.

    The eleventh is Joseph. #11.

    Remember, there is no actually no tribe of Joseph, but there is here. He gave his inheritance to his sons.

    The twelfth is, Benjamin. #12

    This is the true Israel of God:
    Gal 6:16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (the Church and saved Israel). When the time of the gentiles is complete, God will then move His attention to Israel once again and Israel will be completed and saved.
    Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
    Rom 11:15-32 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? :16 For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bears not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou stands by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    What about this number, 144,000? Notice that John said he heard the number, he didn't see it; this tells us that it isn't an amount (as in quantity) of people, it must mean something else. The number 12 represents 12 tribes of Israel from the Old Testament and 12 Apostles of the New Testament. The number 1000 represents from Hebrew, the sense of yoking or taming an ox or joining together, maturity and full stature.
    Let's do some math.
    12 x 12 = 144. Then it multiplies 12 by 1000 in which we see above the meaning of these numbers, Israel and the Church being yoked together in peace. So we see the 144000 as the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament. The completed Israel of God.

    This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Church and saved Israel also makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from v: 9 as the rapture taking place.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walstib View Post
    Posting some verses that I believe Kahtar was speaking of....

    After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:9-10 NKJV)

    I have always been of the mind that this innumerable multitude were not tribulation saints, but rather saints from the cross to the time of the rapture of the saints.

    In Revelation, we see 144,000 sealed for a specific purpose, but I have not found any verses to speak of repentance of any of mankind during the tribulations. As a matter of fact, in one place it speaks of a third of mankind being destroyed and the rest of mankind repenting not but continuing to with their sorceries and other evil deeds.

    Revelation 9:18-21 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
    Continuing through the bowls of wrath and the judgments, repentance is still never mentioned.

    I am not sure exactly why the 144,000 are sealed out of the twelve tribes, but they are for a specific purpose. What are they evangelizing? I believe it may not be a salvation message, but rather 'the Gospel of the Kingdom' following the tribulation... the Millenial Reign of Christ upon the Earth.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommanderRobey View Post
    Continuing through the bowls of wrath and the judgments, repentance is still never mentioned.

    I am not sure exactly why the 144,000 are sealed out of the twelve tribes, but they are for a specific purpose. What are they evangelizing? I believe it may not be a salvation message, but rather 'the Gospel of the Kingdom' following the tribulation... the Millenial Reign of Christ upon the Earth.
    I agree 'then shall this gospel of the kingdom be preached' but I would say it is no different than when Jesus and John said 'repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand' -earthly reign. Repentance is mentioned (Rev 16:9;11). The sheep and goats are decided based on works, not faith, and the works are things done to His brethren who are being persecuted. This of course is after Mat 24 where one is left and another is taken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CommanderRobey View Post
    I have always been of the mind that this innumerable multitude were not tribulation saints, but rather saints from the cross to the time of the rapture of the saints.
    Oh, and I agree. The trib saints are not given white robes, they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirus View Post
    I agree 'then shall this gospel of the kingdom be preached' but I would say it is no different than when Jesus and John said 'repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand' -earthly reign. Repentance is mentioned (Rev 16:9;11). The sheep and goats are decided based on works, not faith, and the works are things done to His brethren who are being persecuted. This of course is after Mat 24 where one is left and another is taken.
    Revelation 16:9-11 states that they repented not of their deeds.

    Still no repentance at this point.

  12. #12
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    I never said anyone repented, just that a time were man could is stated. If they couldn't it wouldn't say they didn't. Your statment that repentance is not offerred must first establish it must first be offered. That's calvinism and reformed theology not scripture.

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