Trix are for heathens?

[oscarkipling]

also, lemmie axe you something. Lets say for instance I was a less diligent crusader of truth. Lets say that someone did present what seemed like a rational argument to this fictitious inane version of me... And this hypothetical lazy less attractive Oscar was convinced intellectually by the obviously logic free "proof"...now could our imaginary indolent Oscar (now believing in Christ strictly intellectually because of that silly baseless argument) repent accept Christ and become a Christian?

so can you be tricked into Christ?


also, can you be tricked into not believing in Christ? and if so then do you go to hell for being slow witted and dull?

[Pilgrimtozion]

You make believing in Christ out to be an intellectual exercise; it is not in the least such. Of course, there are intellectual aspects to the Christian faith. The heart of the matter, however, goes much deeper than the intellect. Faith itself is not based on the rational, not based on deductive reasoning or scientific proof. Rather, faith is based on God who reveals Himself to us and our response to that revelation. The only problem is that a person needs to have an open heart in order to receive God's revelation. If you're determined to be intellectually satisfied in your search for God, you will never find Him because God is per definition supra-rational - He exceeds the rational. Our biggest problem as human beings in relating to God is that we exalt our rational capacities to the level of Deity and then expect God to still reveal Himself to us in a way we will accept. Either your rational capacity is God or God is God - it cannot be both. Again, it does not mean the Christian faith is anti-intellectual; it just means it is supra-intellectual.

[HisLeast]

also, lemmie axe you something. Lets say for instance I was a less diligent crusader of truth. Lets say that someone did present what seemed like a rational argument to this fictitious inane version of me... And this hypothetical lazy less attractive Oscar was convinced intellectually by the obviously logic free "proof"...now could our imaginary indolent Oscar (now believing in Christ strictly intellectually because of that silly baseless argument) repent accept Christ and become a Christian?

so can you be tricked into Christ?


also, can you be tricked into not believing in Christ? and if so then do you go to hell for being slow witted and dull?

Here's an interesting counter-question (or at least I find it interesting ). If something is true, can one be "tricked" into knowing it? Can I trick someone into understanding the Pythagorean theorem?

[oscarkipling]

Here's an interesting counter-question (or at least I find it interesting ). If something is true, can one be "tricked" into knowing it? Can I trick someone into understanding the Pythagorean theorem?

that is interesting, I imagine I could keep the relationships the same and change the nomenclature and it wouldn't change the truth of the Pythagorean theorem. But then my question isn't really about whether or not the truth of Jesus remains, its about the assertion that its impossible to come to Jesus through intellectual conviction....and also trix

[oscarkipling]

You make believing in Christ out to be an intellectual exercise; it is not in the least such. Of course, there are intellectual aspects to the Christian faith. The heart of the matter, however, goes much deeper than the intellect. Faith itself is not based on the rational, not based on deductive reasoning or scientific proof. Rather, faith is based on God who reveals Himself to us and our response to that revelation. The only problem is that a person needs to have an open heart in order to receive God's revelation. If you're determined to be intellectually satisfied in your search for God, you will never find Him because God is per definition supra-rational - He exceeds the rational. Our biggest problem as human beings in relating to God is that we exalt our rational capacities to the level of Deity and then expect God to still reveal Himself to us in a way we will accept. Either your rational capacity is God or God is God - it cannot be both. Again, it does not mean the Christian faith is anti-intellectual; it just means it is supra-intellectual.

okay, but that's just it...what if I was intellectually satisfied and that's why I believe....I mean when people say this to me is like they are saying "nope, no, Christianity doesn't make sense and it cant possibly make sense to anyone...not with their brains at least...you've got to feel it"

[Gulah Papyrus]

Silly Rabbit! Why do I have the feeling I have just been insulted?

If by 'lazy' and 'indolent' you mean he has curbed his selfish pride and his arrogance, then yes, he could be saved...but it would have nothing to do with breakfast cereal.

[Pilgrimtozion]

okay, but that's just it...what if I was intellectually satisfied and that's why I believe....I mean when people say this to me is like they are saying "nope, no, Christianity doesn't make sense and it cant possibly make sense to anyone...not with their brains at least...you've got to feel it"

Your post made me smile. I understand that this is how it could sound like to you. C.S. Lewis is a great example of a brilliant man who set out to prove that Christianity is not true, only to come to the conclusion that it is. His writings are some of the best there are as far as the defense of the Christian faith is concerned.

Look at it this way, I find it very illogical to expect to be able to completely explain Christianity and God. If there were a God, after all, He would far exceed our rational capacities. People want the intellect to explain everything, but it doesn't. We are made up out of so many different components! I am not debunking the intellect, just giving it its rightful place.

[tango]

also, lemmie axe you something. Lets say for instance I was a less diligent crusader of truth. Lets say that someone did present what seemed like a rational argument to this fictitious inane version of me... And this hypothetical lazy less attractive Oscar was convinced intellectually by the obviously logic free "proof"...now could our imaginary indolent Oscar (now believing in Christ strictly intellectually because of that silly baseless argument) repent accept Christ and become a Christian?

so can you be tricked into Christ?


also, can you be tricked into not believing in Christ? and if so then do you go to hell for being slow witted and dull?

also, lemmie axe you something. Lets say for instance I was a less diligent crusader of truth. Lets say that someone did present what seemed like a rational argument to this fictitious inane version of me... And this hypothetical lazy less attractive tangowas convinced intellectually by the obviously logic free "proof"...now could our imaginary indolent tango(now not believing in Christ strictly intellectually because of that silly baseless argument) now reject Christ and cease to be a Christian?

so can you be tricked into rejecting Christ?

also, can you be tricked into not believing in Christ? and if so then do you go to hell for being slow witted and dull?

Bingo! We have a winner! That's exactly what the devil does, tricks people into not believing in Christ.

But you don't go to hell for being slow witted, you go to hell because you chose to be separated from God.

[markinro]

...
can you be tricked into not believing in Christ? and if so then do you go to hell for being slow witted and dull?

MATT 16:17 ...for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven

People spend eternity separated from God because they separated themselves from God while they walked on this earth.

70,80,90 even 100 years is not a long time compared to eternity.

MATT 10:28 Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

[watchinginawe]

so can you be tricked into Christ?

Perhaps. One could start with an honest attempt at a new philosophical paradigm in which to assimilate knowledge. With this consideration alone, many of the things that might not be considered can all of a sudden be considered.

Now there are silly ones out there like the flat earth society or some such that demonstrate how this would work. That would be a demonstration of one that "tricks" or leads one to a belief that is wrong.

One could also try what Descartes did and just throw any assumptions aside and build knowledge only from things which could not possibly be doubted. He claimed to have deduced the existence of himself (I think therefore I am) and God (the existence of doubt) from the exercise. Pretty good stuff.

I don't know if any of that would really work though. For me, it was an inside out kind of thing. There are some things that we just come to "know" through some other means than philosophy. But even then, I believe that we can shut ourselves off from recognizing and examining the "inward" things and so maybe some exercises might open one up to things they hadn't given space to before. Certainly this is true for one who "hears" the Gospel. But one can not hear unless they put themself in attendance. Come to think of it, I can remember hearing many testimonies of those who were only going to Church for one reason or another and came to "know" Jesus. Tricked?

God Bless!

[Dani H]

so can you be tricked into Christ?

No. It's a deliberate decision, followed by baptism.

also, can you be tricked into not believing in Christ?

People's minds have been blinded by the god of this world to keep them from seeing the truth (with their minds). Which is why salvation isn't a mental exercise, but a spiritual one based on faith.

and if so then do you go to hell for being slow witted and dull?

No. Nobody goes to any sort of hell for something they don't know and cannot help. That would be horrible. God is not an ogre.

[oscarkipling]

Silly Rabbit! Why do I have the feeling I have just been insulted?

If by 'lazy' and 'indolent' you mean he has curbed his selfish pride and his arrogance, then yes, he could be saved...but it would have nothing to do with breakfast cereal.

no that's not what I meant exactly although he certainly could have curbed his selfish pride and arrogance, and i don't think it affects the core of my question though....anyway you shouldn't feel insulted we can all laugh at how silly our make believe Oscar is...i'll bet he even wears one of those oversized mariachi hats.

[oscarkipling]

Your post made me smile. I understand that this is how it could sound like to you. C.S. Lewis is a great example of a brilliant man who set out to prove that Christianity is not true, only to come to the conclusion that it is. His writings are some of the best there are as far as the defense of the Christian faith is concerned.

Look at it this way, I find it very illogical to expect to be able to completely explain Christianity and God. If there were a God, after all, He would far exceed our rational capacities. People want the intellect to explain everything, but it doesn't. We are made up out of so many different components! I am not debunking the intellect, just giving it its rightful place.

I like Lewis too, he was sharp and a very engaging writer, though his process and conclusions often aren't as rational as they might seem at first or even after some examination...very very enjoyable and thought provoking though.

I find it difficult to codify exactly what it is that we can't understand about God...it might be paradox in itself or while trying to describe itself. I guess all I expect is that those things that God has supposedly told us be logical and consistent.

[Gulah Papyrus]

no that's not what I meant exactly although he certainly could have curbed his selfish pride and arrogance, and i don't think it affects the core of my question though....anyway you shouldn't feel insulted we can all laugh at how silly our make believe Oscar is...i'll bet he even wears one of those oversized mariachi hats.

Them big goofy hats do make me laugh.

[oscarkipling]

also, lemmie axe you something. Lets say for instance I was a less diligent crusader of truth. Lets say that someone did present what seemed like a rational argument to this fictitious inane version of me... And this hypothetical lazy less attractive tangowas convinced intellectually by the obviously logic free "proof"...now could our imaginary indolent tango(now not believing in Christ strictly intellectually because of that silly baseless argument) now reject Christ and cease to be a Christian?

so can you be tricked into rejecting Christ?


Bingo! We have a winner! That's exactly what the devil does, tricks people into not believing in Christ.

But you don't go to hell for being slow witted, you go to hell because you chose to be separated from God.

okay if you can be tricked into not believing that God doesn't exist and you go to hell for it how are you not being punished for being gullible? You didn't choose to be separated from God because you don't even believe it exists to make a conscious choice you have to be aware of the options...right?