Discipleship

[Dani H]

This thread is an outcropping of a conversation had elsewhere that threatened to turn into its own rabbit trail. So, here is the official trail for our discussion, and I hope others will join in.

We were discussing discipleship, and specifically, what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ.

I'm copying our conversation here so we can continue it:

[DaniHansen]

Back in the first century ... well, all throughout the history of Christianity, really, being a disciple of Jesus meant you were willing to die for the Savior and suffer horrible persecutions up to and including martyrdom. I do not consider a child to be able to make such a weighty decision. Perhaps this is where you and I differ in our assessment of things.

[Wheatbread]

I do think you have pointed out the difference in our views.
Personally I prefer a more modern...? perhaps... definition of disciple. Many I know who hold your view believe there were only 12 disciples of Christ

disciple:One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of another.

[DaniHansen]

I see a disciple of Jesus Christ, specifically, to be one who is willing to take up the cross and follow Him. And following means being willing to give our life to the one who gave His life for us. So I guess I take it to be more narrow, because Jesus already defined those who could, and could not, be His disciples, specifically (Luke 12 and Luke 14).

There were more than 12 disciples during Jesus' time, out of who He named His original 12 apostles (Luke 6:13). I consider myself such (disciple, not apostle) in that narrower sense of the word. I have embraced His teachings, I have received Him as Lord, I have surrendered to Him as Master, I have entered into His death and resurrection and understand that martyrdom is a very real part of the picture, and I am ready for that, if He so chooses. I have been baptized and have denied myself and forsaken all sin and any and all attachments, to "come, follow Me." And I've lived out the reality of it in my personal life with the decisions I've made thus far (which I won't get into now), and so I can say this with confidence.
To me, it's more definitive than "Christian" because the definition of that seems to wafer around depending on whom you ask.

[Wheatbread]

I don't disagree with any of that, but I think there is a lot more to being prepared.
I do think it is very limiting for one to attempt to define another as a "Christian" or not. I need not convince you nor fit your definition in order to be a Christian. (Not that you have said or insinuated such to me )

There are certainly adults who are not capable of grasping such a weighty decision, yet by your standards since they are of age they meet the requirement.
There have certainly been times when my daughter has shared her understanding of scripture and has provided me insight or understanding I had not realized.

-----------------------

Comments? Scriptures?

What does it mean, really, to be a disciple of Jesus Christ? What does it mean to be a "Christian?" A "believer"? Which would you consider yourself to be? Based on what?

[wheatbread]

Thanks Dani, I added the posts that began the trail



[DaniHansen]

And would you consider a 12-year-old to be a disciple of Jesus Christ?

The age of accountability according to the early Church Fathers was 14, by the way. Which is roughly the age that Mary was pregnant with Jesus, according to common belief, give or take.


[wheatbread]
Yes .

[DaniHansen]
Okay.

And what brings you to such a conclusion?

[wheatbread]
I do not place an age limit on being a student.
To be more correct in answering your question, I believe a 12 year old can be a disciple. My daughter is 10 and I do consider her to be.

[DaniHansen]
My son is 11 and as much as I can see his heart for God, I do not consider him to be a disciple, because he lacks understanding in many ways about life and its reality yet. I just see a child who loves God and who will one day when he has a grasp on things, make that decision for himself to follow Jesus to the uttermost.

[tt1106]

Follow me. It was a command not a request. Those who lose their life in my name will gain it.
Pick up your cross daily.
You don't know what you are asking? Are you able to drink the cup from which I drink?.....You will indeed drink from my cup.




Before long, the mob reached the University. They found many of the teens and forced
them to come out of hiding.
Roy Pontoh was forced from his hiding place and made to stand before the mob.
“Renounce your Jesus, or we will kill you!” they threatened.
Roy was terribly frightened. Though trembling, he answered, “I am a soldier of Christ!”
At this, one of the Muslim attackers swung a sword at his stomach. The sword hit the
Bible Roy held, and ripped into it, knocking it out of his hand. The man’s next swing sliced
open Roy’s stomach. His last word was “Jesus.”
The mob dragged Roy’s body out and threw it in a ditch. Four days later, his family found
it.
(excerpt from Jesus Freaks, DC Talk)

Disciple is more about willingness to follow, than knowledge of the Bible.
When Jesus commanded the disciples to follow him, they did. That is what made the difference. You recall they fled. Then they returned after Christ rose and were martyred. Well, Christ has risen. It is now time to spread the good news, at whatever cost.


The question is not about when it is about will.

Just my 2 cents.

[wheatbread]

Follow me. It was a command not a request. Those who lose their life in my name will gain it.
Pick up your cross daily.
You don't know what you are asking? Are you able to drink the cup from which I drink?.....You will indeed drink from my cup.




Before long, the mob reached the University. They found many of the teens and forced
them to come out of hiding.
Roy Pontoh was forced from his hiding place and made to stand before the mob.
“Renounce your Jesus, or we will kill you!” they threatened.
Roy was terribly frightened. Though trembling, he answered, “I am a soldier of Christ!”
At this, one of the Muslim attackers swung a sword at his stomach. The sword hit the
Bible Roy held, and ripped into it, knocking it out of his hand. The man’s next swing sliced
open Roy’s stomach. His last word was “Jesus.”
The mob dragged Roy’s body out and threw it in a ditch. Four days later, his family found
it.
(excerpt from Jesus Freaks, DC Talk)

Disciple is more about willingness to follow, than knowledge of the Bible.
When Jesus commanded the disciples to follow him, they did. That is what made the difference. You recall they fled. Then they returned after Christ rose and were martyred. Well, Christ has risen. It is now time to spread the good news, at whatever cost.


The question is not about when it is about will.

Just my 2 cents.

Great point tt, thanks.

I agree about being willing, would I be able when faced with the challenge...that is what I can not answer for certain as I realize my weakness as mere man. If I were able it would not be by my power but God's.

[Scubadude]

For me, John 13:35 is the most meaningful for defining what it means to be a disciple. You must have love love for one another.

I realize that what it will look like to love someone will be different from person to person. A 10 year old can fulfill Jesus requirement for being His disciple, because she can love. I think we make it all too complicated by adding "marks" of a disciple with things like scripture memory, bible study and such. They are all very important as far as informing our faith, but if a child doesn't know or understand accepted methods of hermeneutics, they can still be a disciple. We must come to Him as a child.... that doesn't mean childish.

Just my thoughts.

[Followtheway]

Some of the disciples may very well have been around 10 and up because from 6-10 all jews wouldve memorized Torah and if they were unable to continue they would be sent to learn their fathers trade, the next level would be for a smarter bunch and that would be from 10-14. We know that the galileans were not movie stars and were found doing their fathers trade.

Also remember that the 12 disciples Jesus had were scared to give their life for Jesus, and they didnt make that commitment until he had died.

[Scubadude]

Some of the disciples may very well have been around 10 and up because from 6-10 all jews wouldve memorized Torah and if they were unable to continue they would be sent to learn their fathers trade, the next level would be for a smarter bunch and that would be from 10-14. We know that the galileans were not movie stars and were found doing their fathers trade.

This is a very interesting statement! Was Jesus not seen as a good candidate to become a disciple? He was learning his father's (Joseph) trade.

[Pilgrimtozion]

Let's keep this thread on track - which is discipleship in general, not the disciples of Christ specifically or their age...

[Scubadude]

Let's keep this thread on track - which is discipleship in general, not the disciples of Christ specifically or their age...

Sorry. That was the thread that spun this thread. I get confused, sometimes.

[wheatbread]

Sorry. That was the thread that spun this thread. I get confused, sometimes.

Actually the thread that spun this one was about abortion

Actually I think there may be some relevance here....




Luke 2:41-52 (New International Version)

The Boy Jesus at the Temple

41Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. 43After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." 49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?"

50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

[Dani H]

To me, a disciple is one who disciplines himself/herself to become like his/her master. Can't spell disciple without d i s c i p l i n e.

There's no such thing as a disciple without a master.

So yes, my master is Jesus, and I always keep Him before me in order to understand the end result and the purpose of it all.

I understand that were my master a regular human being, it would be possible to supersede my master's abilities.

But, He's not, and Jesus specifically stated that a disciple is never greater than his master (otherwise he'd be a master and not a disciple, no?). So what is good enough for my Master, has to be good enough for me.

I also find it interesting that in such a relation, the master gets to call all the shots, and the disciple is required to obey, emulate, and follow.

We have examples of this in the OT such as with Elijah/Elisha.

If you study their relationship, you see that Elisha was always hot on Elijah's trail. Like the disciples of Jesus went with Him everywhere (except on a few occasions). It was a "live in" situation, not some situation where there's e-mail exchange with some pointers being given, but a mano-a-mano training period spanning several years. The Master led by doing and showing and demonstrating, as well as verbal instructions. And there is obviously an element there of "catching" by close contact and a transferring of authority. When Elijah was caught up, Elisha fully expected that what he had "caught", to work. And so it did, and in a greater measure, even. He expected for the Lord God of Elijah to be present with him also. And so He was.

So yea, I want to be all up in my Master's business and learn from Him all I'm able to receive and put into practice. It's on-the-job training that requires personal commitment and the very close paying of attention.

[Scubadude]

To me, a disciple is one who disciplines himself/herself to become like his/her master. Can't spell disciple without d i s c i p l i n e.

There's no such thing as a disciple without a master.

So yes, my master is Jesus, and I always keep Him before me in order to understand the end result and the purpose of it all.

I understand that were my master a regular human being, it would be possible to supersede my master's abilities.

But, He's not, and Jesus specifically stated that a disciple is never greater than his master (otherwise he'd be a master and not a disciple, no?). So what is good enough for my Master, has to be good enough for me.

I also find it interesting that in such a relation, the master gets to call all the shots, and the disciple is required to obey, emulate, and follow.

We have examples of this in the OT such as with Elijah/Elisha.

If you study their relationship, you see that Elisha was always hot on Elijah's trail. Like the disciples of Jesus went with Him everywhere (except on a few occasions). It was a "live in" situation, not some situation where there's e-mail exchange with some pointers being given, but a mano-a-mano training period spanning several years. The Master led by doing and showing and demonstrating, as well as verbal instructions. And there is obviously an element there of "catching" by close contact and a transferring of authority. When Elijah was caught up, Elisha fully expected that what he had "caught", to work. And so it did, and in a greater measure, even. He expected for the Lord God of Elijah to be present with him also. And so He was.

So yea, I want to be all up in my Master's business and learn from Him all I'm able to receive and put into practice. It's on-the-job training that requires personal commitment and the very close paying of attention.

I heard a quote, "The student who honors his master, honors himself."

If you train in some form of martial art, or in some type of school, this kind of language is understandable and useful.

I agree that God is our Master (the mods might kick me out if I said otherwise. ). Calling a student a brother or sister as Jesus does seems to change that relationship. OJT in marriage doesn't have that student/master feel to it. But, we do become students of our spouse.

[Dani H]

I heard a quote, "The student who honors his master, honors himself."

If you train in some form of martial art, or in some type of school, this kind of language is understandable and useful.

I agree that God is our Master (the mods might kick me out if I said otherwise. ). Calling a student a brother or sister as Jesus does seems to change that relationship. OJT in marriage doesn't have that student/master feel to it. But, we do become students of our spouse.

Jesus specifically called them a) His friends, and b) his brothers, and sisters, and mothers, denoting family relations that transcends that of a physical blood-related family. And so we are here today, and that family has become reality, as those who place their faith in the Lord are children of God and siblings of one another. That was surely a prophetic statement He made then, wasn't it? Because if the Father is the Father, and the Son is the Son of the Father, and we also are sons (children) of God, then Jesus is now not only our Master, but our Brother, too.

I tend to shy away from that a little, as familiarity breeds ... other things, but it's nonetheless truth. And we are, after all, to treat one another as we would treat Him. So that's a full circle thing then, isn't it?

[God love you]

To me it means I want to walk like Jesus and talk like Jesus. Learning and being a Doer of the Word. Loving the lovable and the unlovable. Bearing fruit to the glory of God.

If truth be told, we all get a little tired sometimes or at least I know I do, but Jesus is worth it all. He is the one that can take an addict and turn us into a disciple.

What does it mean to me? A lot.

[disciple831]

This thread is an outcropping of a conversation had elsewhere that threatened to turn into its own rabbit trail. So, here is the official trail for our discussion, and I hope others will join in.

We were discussing discipleship, and specifically, what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ.

I'm copying our conversation here so we can continue it:

[DaniHansen]

Back in the first century ... well, all throughout the history of Christianity, really, being a disciple of Jesus meant you were willing to die for the Savior and suffer horrible persecutions up to and including martyrdom. I do not consider a child to be able to make such a weighty decision. Perhaps this is where you and I differ in our assessment of things.

[Wheatbread]

I do think you have pointed out the difference in our views.
Personally I prefer a more modern...? perhaps... definition of disciple. Many I know who hold your view believe there were only 12 disciples of Christ

disciple:One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of another.

[DaniHansen]

I see a disciple of Jesus Christ, specifically, to be one who is willing to take up the cross and follow Him. And following means being willing to give our life to the one who gave His life for us. So I guess I take it to be more narrow, because Jesus already defined those who could, and could not, be His disciples, specifically (Luke 12 and Luke 14).

There were more than 12 disciples during Jesus' time, out of who He named His original 12 apostles (Luke 6:13). I consider myself such (disciple, not apostle) in that narrower sense of the word. I have embraced His teachings, I have received Him as Lord, I have surrendered to Him as Master, I have entered into His death and resurrection and understand that martyrdom is a very real part of the picture, and I am ready for that, if He so chooses. I have been baptized and have denied myself and forsaken all sin and any and all attachments, to "come, follow Me." And I've lived out the reality of it in my personal life with the decisions I've made thus far (which I won't get into now), and so I can say this with confidence.
To me, it's more definitive than "Christian" because the definition of that seems to wafer around depending on whom you ask.

[Wheatbread]

I don't disagree with any of that, but I think there is a lot more to being prepared.
I do think it is very limiting for one to attempt to define another as a "Christian" or not. I need not convince you nor fit your definition in order to be a Christian. (Not that you have said or insinuated such to me )

There are certainly adults who are not capable of grasping such a weighty decision, yet by your standards since they are of age they meet the requirement.
There have certainly been times when my daughter has shared her understanding of scripture and has provided me insight or understanding I had not realized.

-----------------------

Comments? Scriptures?

What does it mean, really, to be a disciple of Jesus Christ? What does it mean to be a "Christian?" A "believer"? Which would you consider yourself to be? Based on what?

Jesus said in the gospel of John 8:32, "If you remain faithfull to My teachings", another version says "If you continue in My word, then you are My disciples". So discipleship starts with studying Jesus, and the words that He spoke, coss its His words that accomplish all that He sets it out to do, its His words that contain eternal life. faith love and peace is all you need, Jesus has done all the hard work, Amen.