Are they judgements or warnings?
Grand Master
Are they judgements or warnings?
Have faith in Jesus
They are judgments that lead up to the return of Jesus Christ. The first five are mostly against Israel (seems), then the 6th one is when the great tribulation takes place, 7th one is the third woe (great earthquake hour) when the two witnesses rise at the resurrection of all of the just.
You could also say they are warnings, as in signs of where we are at.
such as 4th trumpet- sun 1/3 darkened
- Jesus has foretold elsewhere that the days would be shortened
We also know that when the abomination of desolation is seen - it is like the final warning to flee Judea.
Have faith in Jesus
I would call the trumpets - recompense.
See Isaiah 58:1 and 65:6-7
Grand Master
The trumpets are only one third as bad as the vials of wrath. Seems to me that they could be warnings to warn people not to take the mark since taking the mark would bring the full wrath that is without mixture.
Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Have faith in Jesus
The LORD will not punish Israel with things that come in full measure. Israel is freed - the great tribulation is over before the vials can begin.
Grand Master
What makes you say the trumpets are only for Israel? I do not see any mention that the trumpets are exclusively for Israel.Originally Posted by vinsight4u8
"Christ is all" Col 3:11
Exactly.
What is the context given in the 7 trumpets?
1) Is Israel ever specifically mentioned in regards to any of the 7 trumpets?
No.
2) Who is specifically mentioned in regards to any of the 7 trumpets?
- Trumpet #1: "Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth"
- Trumpet #4: "Rev 8:13 Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! "
- Trumpet #5: "Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth, And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth"
- Trumpet #7: "Rev 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished" and Rev 11:15 "11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ"
Context tells us that the Trumpets are not solely for Israel, but are targeted at, and effect the entire Earth.
Only 3 verses in Revelation mention "Israel" (2:14, 7:4, and 21:12), and none of them apply that usage context to the Trumpets.
Citizen
**
Brian Lloyd:
I don't agree that they are against Israel. IMO, Israel is put under the most extreme pressure ever, by Satan, prior to his "binding" by Christ; but, simultanious with that, is the "wrath of Jehovah Zebaoth against the worlds nations. That is why I personaly don't subscribe to a "post Tribulation Rapture", but to a "pre-Tribulation Rapture"; as the Body of Christ (our Lord), is not destined for the Wrath of God against the nations who reject Him and His Christ! However, I digress!
Re. the above question/statement; the following is my take on some of these points, written in the last ten years.
V.2
And the first went, and poured out his vial on the earth; and there fell a (a)noisome and (b)grievous sore upon the (c)men which had the (d)mark of the beast, (e)and upon them that worship his image.
(a)“Noisome;” Interlinear translates; (Str. No. 2556,) “injurious,” “bad,” “evil,” “harm,” “ill,” “wicked,” “noisome.”
(b)“Grievous;” Interlinear translates; (Str. No. 4190,) “evil,” “degeneracy,” “calamitous,” “diseased.”
(c)“Men;” Interlinear translates; (Str. No. 444,) (Greek ANTHROPOS,) “a human being,” therefore both male and female!
(d) See earlier chapters, 13, 14, (particularly 14:9,10,11 and notes.)
(e) May or may not be marked, but worship “his image,” i.e. worship Satan! See Chps. 13 and 14.
V.3
And the second angel poured out his vial on the sea; and it became the (a)blood of a dead man: and every living (b)soul died in the sea.
(a) Blood putrefies after death, and accelerates the decomposition process. In this case it would impede all sea life. As our planet relies on the oceans for cleansing and survival, the meaning is obvious. Almighty God is stepping up the pressure on humankind in the context of "His Wrath."
(b)“Soul;” translates; (Str. No. 5590) (Greek PSUCHE.) This has many meanings depending on the case; here, the meaning is “creature,” (App. 110,1,2.) See Rev. 6:9, and 20:13(b.)
V.4
(a)And the third angel poured out his vial on the rivers and fountains of waters and theybecame blood.
(a)All water, land and sea, turned to blood, therefore as all people need water more than food, a terrifying immediate prospect of death, (i.e. days only!) (Matt. 24:22) (Mark 13:20.)
V.5
(a)And I heard the angel of the waters say,” Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast,and shall be, because Thou hast judged thus.
(a)Approval and confirmation of Jehovah God’s act, by heavenly creation, (who understand!)See 7(a.)
V.6
(a)For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them bloodto drink: for they are worthy.”
(a) This retribution on these peoples is for the clearly stated killing (murder) of Jews and Gentiles during the age of Revelation, who trust in Christ, have "washed their robes in the blood of The Lamb," and have "overcome unto death." When our Lord spoke to His people, He referred to their persecution of those prophets He had sent to them, and the resulting judgement on them at their resurrection. He showed also"that the Owner of the vineyard sent his Son whom they put to death!"
V.7
(a)And I heard the angel of the alter say, “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgements.”
(a) In Ephesians 3:10, Paul the great Apostle to the Gentiles, shows the importance of the church (The True Body) and its example/ witness to heavenly beings/ creation. Here one of those beings is confirming that though terrible, the judgement and retribution Jehovah God has wreaked on the remaining human population is just and beyond reproach!
V.8
And the fourth angel poured out his vial on the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
V.9
And men were scorched with great heat, and (a)blasphemed the name of God, Which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give Him (b)Glory.
(a)Despite the fact that people know who has control of all power; and that even then they can praise Him, they chooseto blaspheme His name! See note 14:1(c.)
(b)“Glory;” Interlinear translates (Str. No. 1391) (Greek DOXA,) “dignity,” “honour,” “glory,” “praise,” “Worship;” then, as now, people prefer Satan in the majority!This has to do with the pride of men in their Genesis acquired powers, (Gen.3:5,) which are enhanced by Satan when people move towards him. The further people move in his direction, the harder it is for them to turn to God their maker through Christ. It is possible to turn to Christ and obtain salvation, and that is an act of will and contrition at the foot of The Cross which expunges Satan from the person. From then on the walk with Christ is a day by day experience, which is aided by The Lord's Spirit! This is only possible during this presentAge of Grace. As is shown above, in the time of these last plagues, these people cannot / choose not togive Glory to God, despite their agony!
V.10
And the fifth angel poured out his vial on the (a)seat of the beast; and his (b)kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain.
(a)“Seat;” Interlinear translates throne, (Str. No. 2362.) See Chp. 2:12-13, and notes. This verse and its references to the throne of Satan at Pergamum, proves that the 7 churches (ekklesia) are yet future (11/4/03.) (Revised 22/8/07.)
(b)Satan’s kingdom, based in Pergamum, present day Turkey.
V.11
And (a)blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
(a)Again the same old reaction blasphemy and lack of repentance!See14:1(c.)
V.12
And the sixth angel poured out his vial on the great river (a)Euphrates; and the waterthereof was dried up, that the way of the (b)kings of the east might be prepared.
(a)See Chp. 9:14-16, and notes.
(b)See Chp. 9: in total and notes. "Kings of the east." The literal translation, "kings of the rising sun!"This statement brings into play the thought of "kings" farther east than Persia (Iran,) and the capacity to produce 200,000,000 man army!
V.13
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
V.14
For they are spirits of (a)demons, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of the great day of GOD THE ALMIGHTY.
(a)These demonic messengers, one from each of the false trinity, go to the Satanically powerful kings of the earth, to bring them to the battle (Armageddon See V.16,) and the great day of Almighty God, on the battlefield in Israel (Armageddon.) (Megiddo.)
V.15
(a)Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments,lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(a) The implication here is that the signs are there to be seen! The event will be sudden, but predictable (see Matt. 24.)
V.16
And (a)He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue(b)Armageddon.
(a)“He;” the 1611 translator for C. of E. again in error. This “he:” should be with the capital H to mean “He,” i.e. Almighty God. The Interlinear has the correction.
(b) “Armageddon;” this word means “mount of Megiddo,” (Comp. page 1905.) See Judges 5:19, Isa. 10:28. It is located in the YEZREEL VALLEY. It has been a battlefield between kingdoms for more than 4000 years B.C.! It is mentioned in various ancient writings including the Pharaoh Thutmose 3rd (1500 B.C.) The king of Megiddo was one of the kings defeated by Joshua (Josh. 12:21.) The city of Megiddo did not become of the tribal allotments until King David. General Allenby fought and won a battle with the Turks there, and received the title of “Lord of Megiddo” for that victory in the first world war. (Allenby gave his support for the state of Israel.) It lies 70 miles due north of Jerusalem!
V.17
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a (a)great voice out of the Temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “IT IS DONE.”
(a) “Great voice;” God Almighty, from the throne “IT IS DONE.” This great climax in the dealing with mankind, this point ends the rule of man. (Joel 2:11.) Our Lord said “It is finished,” (John 19:30,)when He had completed the work on the cross of Calvary. At the point where the Father states “It isdone,” our Lord’s enemies are made His footstool. Psm. 110:1, Matt. 22:44, Mark 12:36, Heb. 10:13.) This is just prior to Christ’s rule from Jerusalem when He and His Father’s name will be one, (Zech.14:9.)
V.18
And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a (a)great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
(a) There have been very great earthquakes in man’s recorded history, but this one yet to be will be the largest ever in man’s time on earth. Science knows the great devastations that have happened in the past, but this one surpasses them all.
V.19
And the (a)great city was divided into three parts,and the (b)cities of the nations fell; and (c)great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
(a)“The great city;” Jerusalem.
(b)“Cities of the nations fell;” unimaginable devastation as New York, Toronto, Boston, London, Sydney, Tokyo, to name a few, the skyscrapers falling, the panic, the destruction, the desolation.
(c)“Great Babylon;” the source of all the world’s pagan religions and Satanic systems, (see Dan. 4:30,) (Gen. 10:10,) (Gen. 11:9.) See also earlier notes.
V.20
And every (a)island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
(a) The result of the great quake, will be no mountains, and no islands! Knowing as we do today that land masses are floating on a sea of molten rock, the violence of the upheavals will possibly push land masses together, as in the ancient past. (Isa. 24:19.)
V.21
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a (a)talent: and men (b)blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
(a)“Talent;” about 114 lbs. (approx. 52 KG.) Obviously deadly.
(b)The usual response from totally unredeemable people. See14:1(c.)
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Grand Master
Judgment yes, Warning? Maybe, maybe not, I'm inclined to think that the 7 Trumpets are in essence a herald that the ONE King in Heaven is about to come. If people want to take it as a warning then so be it.
Citizen
**
Brian Lloyd.
Respecfully, I disagree!
Have faith in Jesus
Hi BrianLloyd,
I'm reading thru the comments under this thread. I'm not done with them yet, but I see that you wrote
"That is why I personaly don't subscribe to a "post Tribulation Rapture", but to a "pre-Tribulation Rapture"; as the Body of Christ (our Lord), is not destined for the Wrath of God against the nations who reject Him and His Christ! However, I digress!"
me
What do you think about the part as to "salvation"?
We are not appointed unto wrath - but salvation.
So - doesn't the church need to be here on the earth till the time comes for her salvation?
The church gets salvation - and all of the wicked get God's wrath.
Rev. 11:18 shows that God's wrath won't begin till the 7th trumpet.
Rev. 12 and Rev. 7 show that the martrys all come out of the great tribulation time first/
they loved not their lives unto the death
Rev. 7 shows the great tribulation martyrs before the 7th seal is opened.
1 Peter 1:9
"Receiving the end of your faith. even the salvation of your souls."
Grand Master
I'm not Brian Loyd, but my question in return would be, what exactly does the church need salvation from? God Preserved Noah, Delivered Israel from Egypt and through their wanderings, kept a remnant even in Babylon itself. Whether you believe in a rapture or not what do you think salvation is from?
Furthermore, why do you not see the tribulation period as being a time of God's Wrath? I do, there are many passages in the OT that describe what happens as Birth Pangs. I believe that everything that happens in the Trib is part of giving birth to the new Christ Age of the millenium, and because of that I'm more inclined to believe in a Pre-trib rapture.
Have faith in Jesus
Hi. I posted a thread about the order of Revelation on here under - for My name's sake. If we let chapters 1-3 belong in one set apart section, then
"After this I looked..."
Rev. 4:1
as to show a whole new picture of things is now starting to be told
What was to happen for John when he was caught up to heaven?
He saw the looks of the throne area.
24 seats
upon the seats - 24 elders sitting
and so on
John then takes us to what happens as to the four beasts. These four beasts consistently say a phrase showing us that He is to come.
Okay, but how long do they keep that up?
With v 8, John begins to make a summary for us.
"And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne,..."
So this is a when verse put into the story, but John doesn's say - then I heard the four beasts give glory...
Instead, John just gives a summary as to what took place. He lets us know that these four beasts will keep up that He is to come type of phrase till just about the time when the 24 elders will give up their seats forever.
v 4
"...upon the seats..."
v 10
"The four and twenty elders fall down before him..."
John didn't tell us right out that the trumpets have been sounding or such - but when we read Rev. 11:16 - we find that he again picks up with the 24 elders as sitting.
and they fall down
This is the same Rev. 4 moment.
The same lose their seats at the throne area moment.
John put that action as being seen during the 7th trumpet.
Rev. 11:16
"And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces..."
John places a summary at the end of chapter 4, but he shows the action time, as to when he viewed that part, in the time of the 7th trumpet.
John was caught up to heaven.
Shown the throne area, heard a consistent message as to He is to come, then shown the trumpet time all the way to almost the arrival of Jesus.
In steps - now the sighting of the sealed book.
Why?
Because John must be shown that the trumpet time falls within the picture of something else.
the seals
Somewhere within the sealed events will be the coming of the Lord.
If we take what John was told would be the same hour as the resurrection of the two witnesses - the great earthquake hour.
Okay, then we know that John heard the 7th trumpet start, the announcement made as to a message that even includes time to reward His servants...and then - the earthquake has so failed to materialize.
John would have to move to the time of the sealed book - to discover when the third woe earthquake hour will occur and the two witnesses stand on their feet and rise.
Have faith in Jesus
Isaiah 65:6
"Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence but will recompense...into their bosom."
v 7
"Your iniquities, and iniquities of your fathers....therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom."
Psalm 73:10
"Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them."
v 1
"Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart."
v 3
"...when I saw the prosperity of the wicked."
v 9
"They set their mouths against the heavens..."
Psalm 75:8
"For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup...it is full of mixture.. but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them."
Jeremiah 30:11
"...my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity...none shall make him afraid."
v 11
"....though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure..."
Israel must be freed by the Lord's return before the first vial can be poured out.
Have faith in Jesus
Hi Brian
Easy on the red please - made a workout on my eyeballs./had to get my shades
I want to pull out this part from your comments and focus on it. You have left me with the impression that you are seeing the trumpets and the vials occur together.V.18
And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there
was a (a)great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon
the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
(a) There have been very great earthquakes in man’s recorded
history, but this one yet to be will be the largest ever in
man’s time on earth. Science knows the great devastations that
have happened in the past, but this one surpasses them all.
I believe John saw the trumpet times end - before the vials.
One reason is:
I'm bugged by how chapter 11's ending will not flow smoothly into chapter 12.
Chapter 11 ends with referring to a great earthquake and great hail - then 12 begins to take John back to the start of Israel as a nation.
But what if the end of Rev. 11 links up to the start of chapter 16?
The needed part has come to show what must take place at the end of the next set of punishments.
That section (the vials) won't have any part of it called back - as it will be done.
It is done.
Whereas the trumpet time - had the seven thunders part sealed - not written down - as in
Some of it won't happen.
Just before the trumpets began - John noted how he also saw this.
Rev. 8: (where the once-had trumpet angels are seen)
v 5
"...there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."
The earthquake part will come at the end of the time of the trumpets.
There is a set of punishments (trumpets) destined to end with an earthquake. That set will be followed by one that ends with an earthquake and great hail (the vials of God's wrath).
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