The 7 trumpets in the book of Revelation.

[Brian Lloyd]

Hi BrianLloyd,

I'm reading thru the comments under this thread. I'm not done with them yet, but I see that you wrote

"That is why I personaly don't subscribe to a "post Tribulation Rapture", but to a "pre-Tribulation Rapture"; as the Body of Christ (our Lord), is not destined for the Wrath of God against the nations who reject Him and His Christ! However, I digress!"


me
What do you think about the part as to "salvation"?
We are not appointed unto wrath - but salvation.

So - doesn't the church need to be here on the earth till the time comes for her salvation?

The church gets salvation - and all of the wicked get God's wrath.
Rev. 11:18 shows that God's wrath won't begin till the 7th trumpet.

Rev. 12 and Rev. 7 show that the martrys all come out of the great tribulation time first/
they loved not their lives unto the death

Rev. 7 shows the great tribulation martyrs before the 7th seal is opened.


1 Peter 1:9
"Receiving the end of your faith. even the salvation of your souls."

Hi BrianLloyd,

Hello vinsight:

I'm reading thru the comments under this thread. I'm not done with them yet, but I see that you wrote

Please first, I apologise for the delay in response, but due to other commitments and travel, that will be regular.

"That is why I personaly don't subscribe to a "post Tribulation Rapture", but to a "pre-Tribulation Rapture"; as the Body of Christ (our Lord), is not destined for the Wrath of God against the nations who reject Him and His Christ! However, I digress!"


me
What do you think about the part as to "salvation"?
We are not appointed unto wrath - but salvation.

Yes, quite so! But, IMO a few groupings are mixed together in the reading of Revelation, by most people, and most teachers! I am not saying that I am right and they are wrong; but I believe they are!
Most of my lifetime has been spent endeavouring to unravel these things, and I am at peace now in what I believe I have been given.
That statement made; it will help you to understand a little of my zeal and certainty.


So - doesn't the church need to be here on the earth till the time comes for her salvation?

The "Church", the Body of Christ, has no connection with being on earth for Her Salvation!
That takes place at the time of every persons "sealing in heavenly places", as Paul said! If you mean It's "Culmination" or "Completion"; again, the only reason for being on earth, is because physical death has not overtaken the person/s; or the Father's Timing has not reached the crucial stage; as is the case at the Rapture!


The church gets salvation - and all of the wicked get God's wrath.
Rev. 11:18 shows that God's wrath won't begin till the 7th trumpet.

The following is my take on this, written 6 years ago:
V.17
Saying, "We give thee thanks Lord God the Almighty, Which art and wast; because Thou hast (a)taken thy great power, and reigneth.

V.18
And the nations have been full of wrath, (b)now your wrath is come, and the time of the (c)dead to be judged, and to give the (d)recompense to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to those that fear Thy name, small and great; and to (e)destroy thosethat destroy the earth."
(a) Taken thy great power to reign; this power has only been withheld because of timing on the main events, which progress toward the completion of the "mystery of God," (Rev. 10:7,) (see notesRev. 5:13 (b).
(b) "Now your wrath is come;" this is the wrath of God against all evil force on earth in human, demonic and Antichrist forms. It will vanquish all forms of anti-God and anti-Christ forces in whatever form. It has been long withheld to allow all events and methods of Satan to reach themaximum permissible within the scope of the ages. Its ending, with the Almighty's contending Wrath against the nations, coincides with the rescue of the remnant of Israel (Isa. 11,) which redeems His promise, that Israel will never cease to be a people on the earth (Gen. 12:2,) (Gen. 15:18,) (Ex. 6:4-8,) (Deut. 11:21,) (Deut. 32:9,) (Deut. 32:43,) (Psm. 105,) (Isa. 66:22,) (Jer. 31:35-37.)
There are many commentators that say this "wrath" is aimed at Israel! When one takes into account Isa.13, (which is related directly to Revelation in prophecy,) and particularly verse 11, " the world" is mentioned specifically! Also, verse 4 and 13 state "the Lord of Hosts," correctly translated "Jehovah Zebaoth," (God of all the World, and its peoples!,) not just the God of Israel!
(c) "Dead to be Judged;" does this statement refer to all the dead who have ever lived? Almost certainly not. The culmination described above relates to timing linked to Israel and the nations (Gentiles.) The judgement is certainly that of the dead Jews (Ezk. 37,) who have been resurrected (Dan. 12:2) (Dan. 12:13,) and probably the raising of "the just," (Luke 14:14,) which probably includes Jew and Gentile, and would seem to accord with Rev. 20: 4-6. This resurrection is the one to hope for by people not of the Body of Christ, as the blessings in Millennial are great, and the second death "has no power over them," (Rev. 20:6.)
(d) "Recompense;" this word has the flavour of "reward," which is the word used by the Interlinear. Recompense has also "compensation," in its meaning. Those listed, the "prophets," "the saints,""those that fear (revere) thy name, small and great," covers many peoples and the categories areknown in truth only by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
(e) "Destroy those that destroy the earth;" this, and many other hard and firm statements in Scriptureare not easily accepted by Christendom currently, because of the many false teachings around the world propagating the "gentle Jesus," myth. There is no doubt that our Lord is the most gentleSaviour, but Christ (The Anointed of Jehovah) has to deal with the evil of which most people areunaware, and in the timing of Jehovah (Rev. 6,) that dealing leading to the ultimate conquering ofSatan is underway. In that context, Satan expected the victory when Christ died on the accursedtree, but instead Christ gained victory over death, and became the first fruit of propitiation (thesaved) to the Father, (Jehovah God.) In this knowledge, Satan, who knows The Word, laid plans,and has the freedom to attempt to eliminate Israel. If this attempt succeeds he has thevictory.Satan's strategy is:-
1) To obtain the knowledge of creation (Jer. 31:35-37,) (this has been sought avidly by science since approx. AD 1850.)
2) To destroy the earth by degradation of all means. (This has accelerated since the start of the Industrial revolution.)
3) To destroy Israel. (This has increased in intensity since the 2nd. world war.)
4) To destroy faith in God/ Christ. (Satan has permit to do his best/worst, to kill or prevent belief, faith, or love in Christ!)
All of these are in progress at present, and in V.18 all the destroying agencies, people, demons and methods are destroyed, (Zech. 13:2.) This must take place, together with Satan's binding, prior tothe regeneration of the earth by Jehovah Zebaoth, and the 1000 year reign of Jehovah / Christ.



Rev. 12 and Rev. 7 show that the martrys all come out of the great tribulation time first/
they loved not their lives unto the death

My take on Rev. 12: Rev Chapter 12

My take on Rev. 7: Rev Chapter 7




Rev. 7 shows the great tribulation martyrs before the 7th seal is opened.


1 Peter 1:9
"Receiving the end of your faith. even the salvation of your souls."

As mentioned; Groups are mixed together!

[vinsight4u8]

I was just signing off - so I will read your post later.

Can you tell me what do you think Hebrews 9:28 means to the church?

[Brian Lloyd]

Hi Brian

Easy on the red please - made a workout on my eyeballs. /had to get my shades

Hi vinsight: the "red", is copied from my Website; www.revelationsmessage.co.uk which was raised nearly 7 years ago; to help promote study of Revelation, and Prophets, re the "end times". I Paste bits of it, to avoid having to type it all again, when in correspondence. I guess you will have to get Poleroids!



I want to pull out this part from your comments and focus on it. You have left me with the impression that you are seeing the trumpets and the vials occur together.

I believe John saw the trumpet times end - before the vials.

One reason is:

I'm bugged by how chapter 11's ending will not flow smoothly into chapter 12.

Chapter 11 ends with referring to a great earthquake and great hail - then 12 begins to take John back to the start of Israel as a nation.

But what if the end of Rev. 11 links up to the start of chapter 16?
The needed part has come to show what must take place at the end of the next set of punishments.
That section (the vials) won't have any part of it called back - as it will be done.
It is done.

Whereas the trumpet time - had the seven thunders part sealed - not written down - as in
Some of it won't happen.

Just before the trumpets began - John noted how he also saw this.
Rev. 8: (where the once-had trumpet angels are seen)
v 5
"...there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."
The earthquake part will come at the end of the time of the trumpets.

There is a set of punishments (trumpets) destined to end with an earthquake. That set will be followed by one that ends with an earthquake and great hail (the vials of God's wrath).

quote=vinsight4u8;1995927]Hi Brian
Easy on the red please - made a workout on my eyeballs. /had to get my shades
Hi vinsight: the "red", is copied from my Web site; www.revelationsmessage.co.uk which was raised nearly 7 years ago; to help promote study of Revelation, and Prophets, re the "end times". I Paste bits of it, to avoid having to type it all again, when in correspondence. I guess you will have to get Polaroid!
I want to pull out this part from your comments and focus on it. You have left me with the impression that you are seeing the trumpets and the vials occur together.
They are in sequence.
I believe John saw the trumpet times end - before the vials.

One reason is:

I'm bugged by how chapter 11's ending will not flow smoothly into chapter 12.
It won't; if you try to read it as most literature. Dr. EW Bullinger stated (and I agree), That many Chapters of Revelation are "visions" in heaven for John.

Chapter 11 ends with referring to a great earthquake and great hail - then 12 begins to take John back to the start of Israel as a nation
See last comment. However, in 12, the "vision" IMO, is a recap for the purpose of context, ie Israel as the main subject of most of Scripture; and to show and remind, of the great Struggle between Jehovah Zebaoth, and Satan!!

But what if the end of Rev. 11 links up to the start of chapter 16?
The needed part has come to show what must take place at the end of the next set of punishments.
That section (the vials) won't have any part of it called back - as it will be done.
It is done.

Whereas the trumpet time - had the seven thunders part sealed - not written down - as in
Some of it won't happen.

Just before the trumpets began - John noted how he also saw this.
Rev. 8: (where the once-had trumpet angels are seen)
v 5
"...there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."
The earthquake part will come at the end of the time of the trumpets.

There is a set of punishments (trumpets) destined to end with an earthquake. That set will be followed by one that ends with an earthquake and great hail (the vials of God's wrath).[/quote]
I feel for us to communicate here in the context of this profoundly important subject; it would be useful to read my website first.

[third hero]

Are they judgements or warnings?

What are the seven trumpets? Good question.

IN Medieval times, when a King is aboput to present himself to his subjects, a herald of trumpets are blown.

Before the Battle at Jericho, trumpets were blown when the Israelites walked around the wall, beseiging the city.

In both examples, after the last trumpet has blasted, something happens. In the example of the king in medieval times, the herald announces the appearance of the King, followed by the king appearing. When the final trumpet bew, the earth quaked, and destroyed the walls of Jericho. Although two different things happened, the same principles are at play here.

1. The trumpets themselves serves as the messengers, announcing that something big is about to happen.

2. The Sounding of the trumpets serve to get the attention of all that hears them.

3. When the trumpets end their call, the big event that is supposed to happen next happens, with no other delay.

In the case of the seven trumpets in Revelation, I find that they announce that the return of the Lord is about to happen. When each of the trumpets are blown, the inhabitants of the world are suppose to be alerted, as each of the catastrophies that accompany the trumpets are meant to get the inhabitants of the earth's attention. Like the walking around Jericho, the trumpets get louder as the day of the city's fall comes closer. Just like that, the woes that accompany the trumpets progressively gets worse. The last three woes are so horrible that the inhabitants of heaven decided to alert John as to the severity of the woes that accompany these trumpet blasts. The last one is so severe, that the hosts of heaven make a special note, showing what is to happen after that trumpet is blown, (Revelation 11:15-19).

According to the elders of heaven, the Lord is to return after the trumpet has blasted. What is the woe that accompanies the seventh trumpet Blast? Revelation 12:10-17 tells us that the wrath of the fallen one is the final woe before the Lord returns. That is nothing less than the Great Tribulation itself. After the Great Tribulation comes to an end, the Lord returns, with no other delay.

And so, just like the trumpets of Jericho and the trumpets of the Medieval times, the Seven Trumpets of Woe serve to both warn the world and alert them that the Lord is about to return to the earth. They are not judgments, as even the woe of the fifth trumpet purposely denies a person the right to die while being tortured by locusts for five months. Even when the woe of the sixth trumpet happens, there is no distinction as to who is anihilated when 1/3rd of mankind is wiped off of the face of the earth. Because there is no set judgment that accompanies the trumpets, they can not be judgments in of themselves. Therefore, they serve as warnings.

I hope I answered your question.

[third hero]

I'm not Brian Loyd, but my question in return would be, what exactly does the church need salvation from? God Preserved Noah, Delivered Israel from Egypt and through their wanderings, kept a remnant even in Babylon itself. Whether you believe in a rapture or not what do you think salvation is from?

Furthermore, why do you not see the tribulation period as being a time of God's Wrath? I do, there are many passages in the OT that describe what happens as Birth Pangs. I believe that everything that happens in the Trib is part of giving birth to the new Christ Age of the millenium, and because of that I'm more inclined to believe in a Pre-trib rapture.

I really do not like getting into debates of this nature anymore, but I have read this argument for quite some time now.

I ask you, what event is Revelation 12:10-17? Is this the time of God's wrath or Satan's?

Another question. Where in the Bible has the Great Tribulation ever been defined as "the day of the Lord's wrath"? I thought the Day of the Lord's return and Judgment Day were the "days of the Lord's Wrath", as defined in various verses in both the OT and NT. So if there are scriptures that clearly define the Great Tribulation as the day of God's wrath, please present them.

[Brian Lloyd]

I really do not like getting into debates of this nature anymore, but I have read this argument for quite some time now.

I ask you, what event is Revelation 12:10-17? Is this the time of God's wrath or Satan's?

Another question. Where in the Bible has the Great Tribulation ever been defined as "the day of the Lord's wrath"? I thought the Day of the Lord's return and Judgment Day were the "days of the Lord's Wrath", as defined in various verses in both the OT and NT. So if there are scriptures that clearly define the Great Tribulation as the day of God's wrath, please present them.

Brian Lloyd:

There are many quotes in O/T referring to "The Day of Jehovah Zebaoth"; you need to seek them out! They all refer to Revelation, and Prophecy!

Jehovah Zebaoth has never yet dealt with all the rebellious of humankind!
The events affecting Israel, are not from Him, they are from Satan; and simultaneous!
The following is an extract from my Site www.revelationsmessage.co.uk and Chp.11. and partially deals with your points!

Saying, "We give thee thanks Lord God the Almighty, Which art and wast; because Thou hast (a)taken thy great power, and reigneth.

V.18
And the nations have been full of wrath, (b)now your wrath is come, and the time of the (c)dead to be judged, and to give the (d)recompense to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to those that fear Thy name, small and great; and to (e)destroy thosethat destroy the earth."
(a) Taken thy great power to reign; this power has only been withheld because of timing on the main events, which progress toward the completion of the "mystery of God," (Rev. 10:7,) (see notesRev. 5:13 (b).
(b) "Now your wrath is come;" this is the wrath of God against all evil force on earth in human, demonic and Antichrist forms. It will vanquish all forms of anti-God and anti-Christ forces in whatever form. It has been long withheld to allow all events and methods of Satan to reach themaximum permissible within the scope of the ages. Its ending, with the Almighty's contending Wrath against the nations, coincides with the rescue of the remnant of Israel (Isa. 11,) which redeems His promise, that Israel will never cease to be a people on the earth (Gen. 12:2,) (Gen. 15:18,) (Ex. 6:4-8,) (Deut. 11:21,) (Deut. 32:9,) (Deut. 32:43,) (Psm. 105,) (Isa. 66:22,) (Jer. 31:35-37.)
There are many commentators that say this "wrath" is aimed at Israel! When one takes into account Isa.13, (which is related directly to Revelation in prophecy,) and particularly verse 11, " the world" is mentioned specifically! Also, verse 4 and 13 state "the Lord of Hosts," correctly translated "Jehovah Zebaoth," (God of all the World, and its peoples!,) not just the God of Israel!
(c) "Dead to be Judged;" does this statement refer to all the dead who have ever lived? Almost certainly not. The culmination described above relates to timing linked to Israel and the nations (Gentiles.) The judgement is certainly that of the dead Jews (Ezk. 37,) who have been resurrected (Dan. 12:2) (Dan. 12:13,) and probably the raising of "the just," (Luke 14:14,) which probably includes Jew and Gentile, and would seem to accord with Rev. 20: 4-6. This resurrection is the one to hope for by people not of the Body of Christ, as the blessings in Millennial are great, and the second death "has no power over them," (Rev. 20:6.)
(d) "Recompense;" this word has the flavour of "reward," which is the word used by the Interlinear. Recompense has also "compensation," in its meaning. Those listed, the "prophets," "the saints,""those that fear (revere) thy name, small and great," covers many peoples and the categories areknown in truth only by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
(e) "Destroy those that destroy the earth;" this, and many other hard and firm statements in Scriptureare not easily accepted by Christendom currently, because of the many false teachings around the world propagating the "gentle Jesus," myth. There is no doubt that our Lord is the most gentleSaviour, but Christ (The Anointed of Jehovah) has to deal with the evil of which most people areunaware, and in the timing of Jehovah (Rev. 6,) that dealing leading to the ultimate conquering ofSatan is underway. In that context, Satan expected the victory when Christ died on the accursedtree, but instead Christ gained victory over death, and became the first fruit of propitiation (thesaved) to the Father, (Jehovah God.) In this knowledge, Satan, who knows The Word, laid plans,and has the freedom to attempt to eliminate Israel. If this attempt succeeds he has thevictory.Satan's strategy is:-
1) To obtain the knowledge of creation (Jer. 31:35-37,) (this has been sought avidly by science since approx. AD 1850.)
2) To destroy the earth by degradation of all means. (This has accelerated since the start of the Industrial revolution.)
3) To destroy Israel. (This has increased in intensity since the 2nd. world war.)
4) To destroy faith in God/ Christ. (Satan has permit to do his best/worst, to kill or prevent belief, faith, or love in Christ!)
All of these are in progress at present, and in V.18 all the destroying agencies, people, demons and methods are destroyed, (Zech. 13:2.) This must take place, together with Satan's binding, prior tothe regeneration of the earth by Jehovah Zebaoth, and the 1000 year reign of Jehovah / Christ.

[third hero]

Brian Lloyd, the question still stands. What is the event that is mentioned in Revelation 12:10-17? Who's wrath is it?

Telling me that there are days of the Lord and then using scriptures from a previous chapter to show that point does not answer my question. I am very aware of whaqt the elders and the hosts of heaven said when the seventh trumpet was blown, and to my recollection, the sign of Satan being booted from Heaven accompanied that proclamation, followed by verses 10-17. What event does these verses describe? Is it the wrath of God, or the wrath of Satan?

Here's a hint, the answer is found in verse 12.

[talmidim]

Brian Lloyd, the question still stands. What is the event that is mentioned in Revelation 12:10-17? Who's wrath is it?

Telling me that there are days of the Lord and then using scriptures from a previous chapter to show that point does not answer my question. I am very aware of whaqt the elders and the hosts of heaven said when the seventh trumpet was blown, and to my recollection, the sign of Satan being booted from Heaven accompanied that proclamation, followed by verses 10-17. What event does these verses describe? Is it the wrath of God, or the wrath of Satan?

Here's a hint, the answer is found in verse 12.

Hello Friend,

Perceptive of you, these double-edged queries. Few things so persuasive as the good question well set and well met. But alas, a nod is as good as a wink - to some... But I digress.

From what I have gathered, there are two types of those 'sealed' as His children: 1) those that have a covenant relationship and 2) those that do not. And within that division there is on the one hand, those that 1) have kept covenant and 2) those that have not. On the other hand and of the type that have no covenant relationship, there are 3) those that are undecided (for whatever reason) and 4) those that have gone over to the enemy.

In the Revelation of the Messiah as revealed to His disciple John, there are three 'judgments': 1) the Seals, 2) the Trumpets and 3) the Cups. And therein lies the rub. Four groups of people and three judgments. But it is not that much of a mystery, is it?

Those that break covenant - the Seals of the Covenant are broken and the judgments declared.

Those that have no covenant - the Trumpets are sounded and the time of choices is upon them.

Those that have covenant with the enemy - the Cups of His Wrath are poured out in full measure.

Each group of His children are found with their appropriate judgment from the Lamb, save those that have overcome because they are found innocent. So all is well. But you mentioned Rev 12:12. And I could not let the opportunity pass for you to field a query in kind. One good question deserves another, right? So who are the inhabitants of the sea?

Be Blessed,

[jeffweeder]

Im a liittle bored tonight, so i would like to share something i read a few years ago regarding the trumpets in my own brief words.

When the 7th is blown, the kingdom of the world becomes the Lords.

So the trumpets are about the world falling and becoming the lords.
The world at the time of writing was Rome.

1st 2nd 3rd and 4th trumpets refer to the barbarian invasions, resulting in the fall of west rome...a 3rd of the empire.
5th trumpet is mohammed sweeping through Arabia (middle east) and Parts of Africa, until peace after the battle of tours.

6th trump is turkish mohammedism, (euphrates) , which eventually took the east-constantiople.
7th trumpet is comin to town near you soon.

A brief look at history if nothing else.

[third hero]

Im a liittle bored tonight, so i would like to share something i read a few years ago regarding the trumpets in my own brief words.

When the 7th is blown, the kingdom of the world becomes the Lords.

So the trumpets are about the world falling and becoming the lords.
The world at the time of writing was Rome.

1st 2nd 3rd and 4th trumpets refer to the barbarian invasions, resulting in the fall of west rome...a 3rd of the empire.
5th trumpet is mohammed sweeping through Arabia (middle east) and Parts of Africa, until peace after the battle of tours.

6th trump is turkish mohammedism, (euphrates) , which eventually took the east-constantiople.
7th trumpet is comin to town near you soon.

A brief look at history if nothing else.

Please tell me that you are NOT calling thde Roman Catholic Church the kingdom of God. From a historical look, that would be the wrong thing to do. Seriously. God does not sell chicken bones to desperate people, claiming that they are the "bomes of the disciples" which can heal people. Lord Jesus has no need of selling chips of wood, claiming that these things are relics of the cross that was used to kill Him, claiming that it can heal people. Lord Jesus never taught us to pray to His disciples because we "are not good enough" to pray to the Father.

Are you telling me that you believe that Revelation 11 was fulfilled by means of the RCC? No disrespect, but you are dead wrong, if that is your assertion.

[jeffweeder]

Please tell me that you are NOT calling thde Roman Catholic Church the kingdom of God. From a historical look, that would be the wrong thing to do. Seriously. God does not sell chicken bones to desperate people, claiming that they are the "bomes of the disciples" which can heal people. Lord Jesus has no need of selling chips of wood, claiming that these things are relics of the cross that was used to kill Him, claiming that it can heal people. Lord Jesus never taught us to pray to His disciples because we "are not good enough" to pray to the Father.

Are you telling me that you believe that Revelation 11 was fulfilled by means of the RCC? No disrespect, but you are dead wrong, if that is your assertion.

How you read that into my post ill never know.........No, i wasnt alluding to that..
It was something i read and shared because i was bored..remember

[Brian Lloyd]

[quote=third hero;1998552]Brian Lloyd, the question still stands. What is the event that is mentioned in Revelation 12:10-17? Who's wrath is it?

Telling me that there are days of the Lord and then using scriptures from a previous chapter to show that point does not answer my question. I am very aware of whaqt the elders and the hosts of heaven said when the seventh trumpet was blown, and to my recollection, the sign of Satan being booted from Heaven accompanied that proclamation, followed by verses 10-17. What event does these verses describe? Is it the wrath of God, or the wrath of Satan?

V.10
And I heard a (a)great voice saying in heaven, "Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for (b)the accuserof (a)our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(a) This great voice in heaven is probably collective as it refers to "our brethren," later in the verse. As to who the voices belong to also hinges on the same words, (see note next verse.)
(b) "The accuser;" Satan.

V.11
And they (a)overcame him (b)by the blood of the Lamb,and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life unto death.
(a) "Overcame;" here again is the great emphasis of this time. These people, Jew and Gentile (Rev.7:9-17) are the "overcomers," of earlier reference. Many are already in heaven, mostly by persecution (Rev. 6:9-11,)but may also include the Body of Christ (the true church as opposed to Christendom,) which in the opinionof the writer has at this stage been translated (1 Cor. 15:51- 52.) There can be no doubt thatthe overcomersare brethren to the Body, but not of it (Rev. 7:15,) and therefore their voices possiblyincluded in that "greatvoice," of V.10, in great joy. An interesting possible implication in Revelation regarding the "overcomers,"is that at their death, they appear to go straight to heaven, whereas Christians in this age must await thetranslation (1Thess. 4:13-17,) which certainly is prior to this period(1 Thess. 1:10,) all of which is "the harvest,"of which our Lord was the "first fruits," (1Cor. 15:20-23.)
(b) "By the blood of the Lamb;" (Rev. 7:14.)

V.12
Therefore (a)rejoice ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. (b)Woe to the ones dwelling on the earth, and in the sea, because the devil is come down to you having (c)great anger, knowing he has only a little time."
(a) The inhabitants of heaven, exhorted to rejoice. Clearly Satan had for many ages caused greattrouble, strife, conflict and much turmoil, beyond our ability to understand, whilst allowed toretain a "place," in heaven. It is also clear that his success persuaded ⅓ of all angels to followhim, which underlines the fact of "freewill" of the angels! His presence is a constant source of pernicious, ongoing divisive action in heaven. Eventhough heaven's creation knows who their Creator is, Satan still has much success in converting angelic creation to his side. One of the many major differences between mankind and angels, is humans will deny the existence of The God Almighty, and also Satan. It is implicit that oneelement is common to both earthly and heavenly creation,free will! It is therefore easy tounderstand that heavenly creation rejoices at the expulsion of such an adversary, after so long intheir midst, andalso in the knowledge that Satan's efforts will be short on earth. The question often asked by many over the years, is how could Almighty God allow Satan to exist after suchrebellion, and even to be in His presence, to have place in heaven; and patrol earth (Job 1 and 2.) The answer undoubtedly lies in The Perfect Plan of Redemption, that only God couldconceive, wherein the Perfect Love of God would allow Satan to perform to his vile worst in heavenas well as earthafter the overthrow, all of which is observed by heavenly creation (Eph. 3:10.)
Some argue that such a protracted process is wasteful, painful, and suffers great loss of life andenvironment. That is to miss the main point. It is of course easily possible for Almighty God toeliminate Satan. To do so however prematurely would not allow creation to see the depth of sinthat Satan will eventually stoop to. Conversely, the Almighty will be seen by all creation to takethe burden and result on Himself, in the form of Christ Jesus (Col. 1:20.) It is thereafter theresponse to Christ's death and suffering (in the place of all accepting humankind) which is thekey to every individual's eternal destiny, on earth and also in heaven, in this age, and eternity!

The main thrust for Satan's pernicious attention had been heaven's occupants and the tribes ofIsrael. Abraham was chosen by God. He was called "the friend of God," Ex. 33:11, 2Chr. 20:7,Isa. 41:8, Jms. 2:23, because his heart was against the idolatry of his father, and the nation Ur, which derived from Babylon! After Paul's declaration(Acts 28:25-28,) all the world's nationsbecame the subject of Satan's attention; which showed in the Wisdom of Jehovah Zebaoth, that the failure of Satan at The Cross and the failure of Israel to accept Christ (Acts 28:26,) increased theeventual harvest for Christ / Jehovah. Most people on earth are fixated with their flesh life, whichis natural enough. However, God has ordained that they are not content, and can only find rest,peace and understanding in Him, albeit in simple sincere trust, which people find hard to give,unless they encounter Christ,personally!Because all the efforts of Satan are eventually self defeating, and will be seen as such by heavenlyand earthly creation, the Almighty in Christ will vanquish Satan,but not until heaven and earthhave been reminded that Satan stands for deceit, destruction, suffering and death, (Rev.20:3, 20:7-10,)as opposed to the Love, Peace, Justice and Righteousness of Jehovah/Christ. After that reminder,Satan and his followers will be consigned to doom (Rev. 20:10.) All that remains for individuals at the present time (i.e. this age) is to trust in God's work, in Christ Jesus. The timing of the above isin the hands of the Father only (Matt. 24:36,) and His timing is perfect (Matt. 5:48.) The perfecttiming of God the Father means that Satan is defeated byperfect Love(a concept totally alien to mankind which means that Satan is defeated by Love, which is God (1 John 4:8-16!) Had Satanbeen destroyed at the time of his rebellion, none of the above could have come into play and such action by the Almighty would have been seen by creation as dictatorial, and His plan of Love couldnot unfold to fruition. As the plan now unfolds, God will indeed be seen asUltimate Love.
(b) The dire warning to earth's and sea's inhabitants, prior to the last woe auger terrible events forthem.
(c) Satan's heavenly banishment leaves him with less room for manoeuvre, and activity. His success in heaven has clearly been great, but the worthiness of The Lamb, allowed the releasing of the 7thseal, triggering the banishment in the timing of Jehovah Zebaoth. Satan had recruited / convertedangelic helpfor many reasons, all of which are to attempt to thwart the plan of Salvation of GodAlmighty and to magnify himself. The first example produced the Scripture recorded result ofNephilim, (Gen. 6) which had it succeeded would have brought to nothing the promise of God inEden(Gen. 3:15,) however, God intervened at the crucial stage to rid earth of Nephilim, and savethe pure line of Noah, and preserve His prophecies and promises. The situation on earth at the time of Satan's heavenly expulsion is dire for the Jews, as the "man ofsin," has broken his covenant with Israel after 3½ years, and is imposing a brutal regime. Thisman often called "Antichrist," is now newly empowered by Satan, now located in Pergamos (Rev.2:12-13,) which interestingly is the location that the Babylonian priesthood removed to at the fallof Babylon many centuries earlier. Satan must still attempt to achieve the goal of stopping thepromises of Jehovah Zebaoth regarding His people Israel from coming to fruition. He nowreleases his full wrath onto the ancient people of God, Israel.

V.13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast down unto the earth, he (a)persecuted the (b)woman which brought forth the (c)male child.

V.14
And to the (b)woman were given the (d)two wings of a great eagle, that she may fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent
(a) See previous verses of this chapter.
(b) See V.1, V.5, V.6.
(c) See V.5
(d) See V.6, "two wings of a great eagle;" a great and powerful bird, which soars to great heights and inaccessible places. This would imply supernatural help from Jehovah Adon, to secure the flightof His remnant people Israel, to secure their safety, nourishment, etc., for the 3½ years duration;"from the face (VENOM, THREAT AND DEATH) of the serpent (Satan.)"

V.15
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a (a)river after the (b)woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

V.16
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

V.17
And the dragon was (c)wroth with the woman, and went to war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the (d)commandments of God, holding the testimony of Jesus.
(a) "River;" hoards of people etc., in the form of military action against the woman etc., as seen in following chapters.
(b) "Woman;" Israel, see V.6.
(c) The anger of Satan, now confined to earth, and only now able to take action against the followersof God on earth.
(d) Those who have come to know Christ and hold their testimony (Rev. Chapters 2 and 3.)


Overcomers!!!

[third hero]

Brian Lloyd,
Here is my point. Many call the Great tribulation the time of God's wrath. That is factually incorrect. The Great Tribulation, as defined by Revelation 12:13-17, Matthew 24:15-21, Zechariah 14:1-5a, Daniel 7:19-21, and Ezekiel 38:8, calls this time period as the time of Satan's wrath. This is NOT the same as the time of God's wrath, which is defined in Revelation 15:1-20:3, Ezekiel 39, Daniel 7:11-14, Daniel 7:22, Zechariah 14:5b-21, and Matthew 24:29-25:45.

Pre-tribbers inadvertantly call the period of Satan's wrath the time of God's wrath,

God does not have to come to keep us from the wrath of Satan, which is the hour of trial that precedes the return of the Lord. In fact, the only church that is promised to be kept from that hour was Philadelphia. To the rest, Matthew 24:13 remains in effect, as we are to remain faithful until the end, which is the return of the Lord, and not the rapture that you suppose would precede the Great Tribulation. Lord Jesus even told us that in this world we will have tribulation. The tribulation is not God's wrath. That is what we call, "the Judgment of God". There's a huge difference here.

[Brian Lloyd]

Brian Lloyd,
Here is my point. Many call the Great tribulation the time of God's wrath. That is factually incorrect. The Great Tribulation, as defined by Revelation 12:13-17, Matthew 24:15-21, Zechariah 14:1-5a, Daniel 7:19-21, and Ezekiel 38:8, calls this time period as the time of Satan's wrath. This is NOT the same as the time of God's wrath, which is defined in Revelation 15:1-20:3, Ezekiel 39, Daniel 7:11-14, Daniel 7:22, Zechariah 14:5b-21, and Matthew 24:29-25:45.

Pre-tribbers inadvertantly call the period of Satan's wrath the time of God's wrath,

God does not have to come to keep us from the wrath of Satan, which is the hour of trial that precedes the return of the Lord. In fact, the only church that is promised to be kept from that hour was Philadelphia. To the rest, Matthew 24:13 remains in effect, as we are to remain faithful until the end, which is the return of the Lord, and not the rapture that you suppose would precede the Great Tribulation. Lord Jesus even told us that in this world we will have tribulation. The tribulation is not God's wrath. That is what we call, "the Judgment of God". There's a huge difference here.

Brian Lloyd:

As I have already alluded; I do not share your opinion! You are mistaken.
As I have already said, please read my web site www.revelationsmessage.co.uk so that we can converse with more objectivity.

[quiet dove]

Brian Lloyd,
Here is my point. Many call the Great tribulation the time of God's wrath. That is factually incorrect. The Great Tribulation, as defined by Revelation 12:13-17, Matthew 24:15-21, Zechariah 14:1-5a, Daniel 7:19-21, and Ezekiel 38:8, calls this time period as the time of Satan's wrath. This is NOT the same as the time of God's wrath, which is defined in Revelation 15:1-20:3, Ezekiel 39, Daniel 7:11-14, Daniel 7:22, Zechariah 14:5b-21, and Matthew 24:29-25:45.

Pre-tribbers inadvertantly call the period of Satan's wrath the time of God's wrath,

God does not have to come to keep us from the wrath of Satan, which is the hour of trial that precedes the return of the Lord. In fact, the only church that is promised to be kept from that hour was Philadelphia. To the rest, Matthew 24:13 remains in effect, as we are to remain faithful until the end, which is the return of the Lord, and not the rapture that you suppose would precede the Great Tribulation. Lord Jesus even told us that in this world we will have tribulation. The tribulation is not God's wrath. That is what we call, "the Judgment of God". There's a huge difference here.

Jesus, the only one worthy, is opening the seals of God's wrath (not Satan's). And He is not opening them up upon His own Bride.

Satan has been dishing out his wrath all along, persecution. No doubt it will escalate, but it has always been going on. And while Satan spends much effort on persecuting Christians, he at the same time, does not care who he destroys, believer or unbeliever. He is just a lier and dishing it out, where as God's judgment in just and righteous and meant to correct and bring to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, or to punish rejection.