Were Adam and Eve holy before the fall?

[Friend of I AM]

Were Adam and Eve holy before the fall?

Discussing this subject with our cell group - I'd like to get the take of the general populace here... Does scripture give evidence that Adam and Ever were once holy before they sinned.

And please site your scripture in reply...


For His Glory...

RbG

Hey Redeemed,

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Well if you consider that God was interacting with them directly, even as far as walking with Adam in the garden, then yes I would consider them so as God requires Holiness before him. But they were sanctified(cleansed) by God's Holiness, not their own. This is why it is stated in scripture by John "When we see him, we will be like him..any one who has this hope in him will be pure..even as he is pure." God's presence in our lives is what makes us Holy, even though we are still in these imperfect fleshy forms.

So we have to be careful though with the word Holiness, as it doesn't necessarily denote omniscience or omnipotence, or knowledge. Remember, food and temples were considered "holy" and "sacred" by God..but these things are just objects which are not infallible or unbreakable.

All of this being said, despite the Holiness God had given them, they did not possess knowledge of good and evil. They would have remained Holy if they had listened to God, and not disobeyed his command to eat from the tree of knowledge...as God stated they would die after eating from it. God holds them accountable for this disobedience because they possessed enough knowledge from him to refrain from disobeying his command.

[Redeemed by Grace]

This is what I don't understand from what is being said here my friend.

It is my understanding from study of scripture.......(which can and has been wrong before, and has been corrected by the Spirit of God working through someone else), When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the Garden.....they were living souls if I am not mistaken. But when God created male and female.....not Adam and Eve.....but Male and Female......God first created them in God's own perfect image.....which can only be a Spirit according to Jesus is John 4:24. From what I know about science and physics, which is smaller then a mustard seed.......a Spirit does not have a Soul.

Now.....in order to understand what you are saying here my friend....we would need to say that what is written by the inspiration of God in Genesis 1:27 is no good to use as information on God's creation of Man......so do away with it, and lets start in Genesis 2:7, when God created just man first and made him a living soul by breathing the breath of life in him.

Although I can agree that man did become a living soul before his creation of female in Genesis 1:27, I cannot agree that they both were not made in the perfect image of a Holy God, before God made them living souls. That is not what scripture teaches, unless we do away with Genesis 1, and just start reading and teaching scripture from Genesis 2.

This is what I don't understand about what is being said and why.

God Bless,

Dave

Genesis 1:26-31
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.


Genesis 3:22-23
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.



The precept is that Man is created in the image of God... Not doubt, agree... Now defining what that means... does it mean in physicalness? Or does it mean spiritualness? Or does it mean in logic? Or does it mean in eternity? Or something else? Or all of the above?

I differ though in your comment... "But when God created male and female.....not Adam and Eve.....but Male and Female......God first created them in God's own perfect image....." I say go back and reread scripture to make sure how this applies.

So I am not saying that Adam and Eve were not created in the image of God, far from it, never stated that or even implied that... What I am saying is that God did not declare them to be holy, only good... and state that they, like you and I are only declared Holy by God through God, that of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[bosco]

If you said the name Messiah is Holy, I do not define it Sacred. I define it God. God is above being Sacred He is Holy. There is nothing higher then Him. The word Messiah to me means Anointed One, which points me to Jesus Christ my Lord.

I don't define it as sacred either, I define the word holy as set apart and the word holy is used in relation to God's name:

Psalm 103:1- Bless YHWH, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.

His name is set apart from all other names, all other "authority" which is what his name represents.

No, I don't think so.

You don't have to believe Kodesh means Set Apart, but non-modern biblical dictionaries do not agree with you.

What kind of people are we talking about here who are set apart from those who do not follow Our Lord?

1 Peter 2:9- But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellent virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

We are a people set apart from darkness, from the ungodly, set apart as God's chosen.

Bosco

[Joey Porter]

The debate seems to be what exactly is meant by being "created in the image of God."

I don't think it could in any way mean they were created as pure, perfect spirit beings. Scripture states elsewhere that Adam was from the dust of the earth. The first Adam was from the dust of the earth, the last Adam (Yahshua) is a life giving spirit.

(Forgive me for not having time to dig up all the scriptures.)

We also know that after Eve was formed, Adam called her "flesh of his flesh." Flesh and spirit are at enmity with one another as scripture states.

[bosco]

The debate seems to be what exactly is meant by being "created in the image of God."

I don't think it could in any way mean they were created as pure, perfect spirit beings. Scripture states elsewhere that Adam was from the dust of the earth. The first Adam was from the dust of the earth, the last Adam (Yahshua) is a life giving spirit.

Adam and Eve could NOT have been made perfect. If they were perfect, they would have been God. Only God is "perfect." They were created in God's desired state...below him on the totem pole, living in a paradise where they could "walk with him in the cool of the day" and fellowship. But, being not perfect, they made a poor choice and fell.

One day we will return to that garden state (not Jew Jersey) but this time we will have put on incorruption and will not risk being kicked out.

Bosco

[Dragonfighter1]

Adam and Eve could NOT have been made perfect. If they were perfect, they would have been God. Only God is "perfect." They were created in God's desired state...below him on the totem pole, living in a paradise where they could "walk with him in the cool of the day" and fellowship. But, being not perfect, they made a poor choice and fell.

One day we will return to that garden state (not Jew Jersey) but this time we will have put on incorruption and will not risk being kicked out.

Bosco

I think the "perfect argument needs some work...
If I build a car and CHOOSE to leave a tape player out (for my own reasons) once I am finished building the car it is Perfect. In so much as it is exactly what it was supposed to be.... no chips in the paint, no cracks in the windshield, purrs like a car should.. its perfect!
And yet it doesnt have a tape deck!

Adam and Eve were perfect in the sense that the qualities they were manufactured with had no flaws.

[Joey Porter]

Adam and Eve could NOT have been made perfect. If they were perfect, they would have been God. Only God is "perfect." They were created in God's desired state...below him on the totem pole, living in a paradise where they could "walk with him in the cool of the day" and fellowship. But, being not perfect, they made a poor choice and fell.

One day we will return to that garden state (not Jew Jersey) but this time we will have put on incorruption and will not risk being kicked out.

Bosco

Yes, I definitely agree with what you say about the garden. And the time is actually soon to be restored to that garden state.

That is why in the parable of the mustard seed, only the Luke account specifies that the seed was planted in the garden. If you don't understand what I mean, allow me to use this as an oppurtunity to make a cheap, shameless plug of my blog!

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5,

It's not so much in having a statement of being holy as it was their original condition... So I disagree and stand at odds with the definition of Holy as meaning only 'set apart', for Holy is a state of Godly perfection and not separation... For the angels and the 4 living creatures cry out towards God

Isaiah 6:3 And one called out to another and said,
"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts,
The whole earth is full of His glory."

Revelation 4:8 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."


Not 'set apart, set apart, set apart', but 'Holy, Holy Holy'. The value is assigned to God and God alone, and thus He declares and make what else is holy...

Exodus 15:11 "Who is like You among the gods, O LORD?
Who is like You, majestic in holiness,
Awesome in praises, working wonders?

Hab 1:12 Are You not from everlasting,
O LORD, my God, my Holy One?
We will not die.
You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge;
And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.
13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil,
And You can not look on wickedness with favor.
Why do You look with favor
On those who deal treacherously?
Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up
Those more righteous than they?

In Scripture God is frequently styled “The Holy One”: for He is so because the sum of all moral excellency is found in Him.



God Himself singles out His perfections

Psalm 89:35 "Once I have sworn by My holiness;
I will not lie to David.

Therefore we are exhorted to “sing unto the Lord, O ye saints of His, and give thanks at the remembrance of His holiness” Psalm 30:4

So I don't see this assigned by words or actions towards Adam or Eve. Holiness in more that set apart, it's the epitome of perfection of God Himself.

And I also have quoted Leviticus and 1 Peter, for this deals with what God states “after” the fall... My question asks about before the fall.... Adam and Eve didn't have scripture yet.

So the statement I say being holy is not defined as being set apart, for it is ascribed by God to God Himself, and from God, He then declares what is and is not holy with all His conditions and circumstances that surround it... So the question is that if Adam and Eve were Holy before the fall, and if Holy, being as the epitome of God sinless perfection... how can sin emanate from holiness if what folks say is true...?

Well, if you have your own definition of the word, and are not interested in how the Scriptures use the word, why even post your OP.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Well, if you have your own definition of the word, and are not interested in how the Scriptures use the word, why even post your OP.

Please define the word 'bad'.









Could bad = good somehow? ie That mustang is bad! Tell me what that means by me?



How about defining ill?



Context is so important is valuing words, so I have used biblical definitions through the lense of Scripture.


You have even requoted them in your reply back to me.... So that's the definition I see most used and appropriate.


So let me ask you.... if Adam and Eve where holy = set apart as you say... what were they set apart from...

[Butch5]

Please define the word 'bad'.









Could bad = good somehow? ie That mustang is bad! Tell me what that means by me?



How about defining ill?



Context is so important is valuing words, so I have used biblical definitions through the lense of Scripture.


You have even requoted them in your reply back to me.... So that's the definition I see most used and appropriate.


So let me ask you.... if Adam and Eve where holy = set apart as you say... what were they set apart from...

I'm not using slang, I'm giving you the definitions of the words. If holy only pertains to God then why did God and Peter tell us to be holy?

Adam and Eve were set apart for God, to have fellowship with Him, as Scripture says Adam walked with God in the cool of the day. They were also set apart to tend and care for the creation.

[threebigrocks]

I'm thinking the question here is set apart from what? Was their anything for them to be set apart from?

Here is RbG's question, which Butch replied to:

So the question is that if Adam and Eve were Holy before the fall, and if Holy, being as the epitome of God sinless perfection... how can sin emanate from holiness if what folks say is true...?

Let's stay on topic and not get all goofy about the definitions of words. RbG has clarified her question and nitpicking definitons won't allow for discussion or understanding.

My answer: Adam and Eve were fleshy and had free will to choose to eat the fruit or not. Just as a kid don't know the stove is hot when they are 2 and when nobody is looking they find out it is. All they knew was should I or shouldn't I eat it. Satan appealed to the flesh, and Adam and Eve followed the flesh.

[Redeemed by Grace]

I'm not using slang, I'm giving you the definitions of the words. If holy only pertains to God then why did God and Peter tell us to be holy?

Adam and Eve were set apart for God, to have fellowship with Him, as Scripture says Adam walked with God in the cool of the day. They were also set apart to tend and care for the creation.

I see you've got this backwards... Genesis 3: 8 states.

"They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day.... "


Also to say that 'they were set apart to tend and care for the creation' and thus say that means 'they were holy to tend the care for the creation' is reading that into the text.... So... again, context is important...

And Three Big Rocks, thanks for helping to clarify... and clarifying back.... I'd be a he and not a she... Just ask my wife...

[bosco]

I think the "perfect argument needs some work...
If I build a car and CHOOSE to leave a tape player out (for my own reasons) once I am finished building the car it is Perfect. In so much as it is exactly what it was supposed to be.... no chips in the paint, no cracks in the windshield, purrs like a car should.. its perfect!
And yet it doesnt have a tape deck!

Adam and Eve were perfect in the sense that the qualities they were manufactured with had no flaws.

I have no fear of a point needing work or even being corrected Dragonfighter. But we are saying the same thing, I was just trying to be brief so as to be read and not dismissed because of a lengthy post.

Adam and Eve were perfect in that God made them as he planned. They were in that sense, perfect. But not perfect in the pure sense of the word. Only God is "perfect" therefore, Adam and Even were not equal to God. One of the verses that depicts Christ as being God is the verse when he admits he is the Son of God. The Jews, when they heard this, accused him of saying he was God by making himself equal to God. After all, a perfect omni-potent God has a child, that child would have the same qualities as God. He too would be perfect, thus, by claiming he was the Son, he was claiming to be equal....thus God. Adam and Eve were not equals, not omni-potent, omniscient, nor eternal. They had a beginning, a creation, God did not.

In them, God placed an ability to choose. They chose poorly displaying their less than God status, and fell.

Bosco

[bosco]

I'm thinking the question here is set apart from what? Was their anything for them to be set apart from?

Here is RbG's question, which Butch replied to:



Let's stay on topic and not get all goofy about the definitions of words. RbG has clarified her question and nitpicking definitons won't allow for discussion or understanding.

My answer: Adam and Eve were fleshy and had free will to choose to eat the fruit or not. Just as a kid don't know the stove is hot when they are 2 and when nobody is looking they find out it is. All they knew was should I or shouldn't I eat it. Satan appealed to the flesh, and Adam and Eve followed the flesh.

What makes Adam and Eve set apart? Out of all of creation, 100 million forms of life (probably more back then), angels, only those two would parent the race who would carry God's name. Only those who came through the line of Adam will inherit the Kingdom. Only those who came through the line of Adam have dominion over all creation. This makes Adam and Eve different than all creation, set apart from the rest of it.

Bosco

[Redeemed by Grace]

What makes Adam and Eve set apart? Out of all of creation, 100 million forms of life (probably more back then), angels, only those two would parent the race who would carry God's name. Only those who came through the line of Adam will inherit the Kingdom. Only those who came through the line of Adam have dominion over all creation. This makes Adam and Eve different than all creation, set apart from the rest of it.

Bosco

If you don't mind, I'd like to test your logic. If you are saying that being holy means set apart, and as you define it it means different, compared to "all of creation, 100 million forms of life... angels... " then I would say by your own definition that Satan was not created holy, nor were the angels, seeing that set apart is reserved for the human race, as you are defining it? Right?