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Thread: The trap of 'derived doctrine', not found in scripture.

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    Exclamation The trap of 'derived doctrine', not found in scripture.

    This was originally a reply on the thread it was split off here to avoid derailing the original thread; Keep an eye open to the teachings you listen to in these last days.

    "Derived doctrine"

    For each of these 'teachers' there is a trap. So many, myself included spend time studying the writing of other men. Naturally, there are going to be those we agree with one way or another. We tend to form our own understanding of what these men write / teach. I personally refer to these things as 'derived doctrine'.

    Derived doctrine has it's roots in scripture, but relies on an external explanation to make it work. For instance, the RCC doctrine of purgatory can be supported by certain scripture, but is not in scripture it's self and is therefore FALSE. Many doctrines we see in these end times fall along these lines.

    The thing I once believed about the timing of the Lord's return was a 'derived doctrine' and while it made sense if you took it into scripture, it never seemed to be in scripture on it's own.

    One of the ways to see this is if the explanations have to be more complicated then they should be, or if certain scripture has to be taken slightly out of context to make something fit (like when someone has to 'tweak' work meanings to make something fit, often citing something about the 'original language' or using multiple translations.

    Blessings to all who follow this thread, may we all be keen to see the error that we are being sold. It is not through our own reason we will see it, but only by the Holy Spirit we are protected.

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    I agree in part and disagree in part.

    Citing to original language is not necessarily a sign of "derived doctrine" as you call it, but an affirmation of the veracity and inerrancy of Scripture.

    It is devote to sound theology that leads one to study the context and the original language.

    That being said, a lot of what people say "God said" has nothing to do with what "God said."

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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiKnife View Post
    I agree in part and disagree in part.

    Citing to original language is not necessarily a sign of "derived doctrine" as you call it, but an affirmation of the veracity and inerrancy of Scripture.

    It is devote to sound theology that leads one to study the context and the original language.

    That being said, a lot of what people say "God said" has nothing to do with what "God said."
    Absolutely. I do appreciate looking at the original language. What bothers me is when someone does so to make a verse (or usually a word) fit their doctrine. This happens often with end time discussion.

    I heard a very well known teacher on the radio yesterday say "Christ came not to violate the law, but to fulfill it." The reach for the word Violate in place of the word abolish struck me an example of this kind of stretch to make the verse fit your doctrine.

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    Because the Bible doesn't have an answer for every question we can ask, we must derive out of necessity.

    But I do agree that its a dangerous game. At this point we've got so many camps claiming authority over what the scriptures "really" say that I find it impossible to discern real truth, unless by pure luck, and even then I wouldn't really know.

  5. #5
    bosco Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Amos_with_goats View Post
    Absolutely. I do appreciate looking at the original language. What bothers me is when someone does so to make a verse (or usually a word) fit their doctrine. This happens often with end time discussion.

    I heard a very well known teacher on the radio yesterday say "Christ came not to violate the law, but to fulfill it." The reach for the word Violate in place of the word abolish struck me an example of this kind of stretch to make the verse fit your doctrine.
    I was thinking of the same example as I read along. The word fulfill becomes the emphasis in that case, and "did not come to abolish" gets ignored, even when their definition of fulfull contradicts the word abolish.

    That example aside, I agree with the Rabbi (Knife) that using the original language isn't bad. When it becomes bad is when there are 10 verses that say X, but you WANT them to say Y, so you use "the original language" in one of the 10 verses to MAKE it say Y.

    We have not only been told to study to show ourselves approved a workman unto God, but also that we are to prove all things. When we have our minds made up about any doctrine going in, we lose the ability to prove anything. We must empty ourselves to the Word, allow the Spirit to teach us as promised while keeping in mind that NO teaching will EVER contradict scripture. Rarely do I personally use a commentary. I don't think them as bad or anything like that, but we have been given a promise that the Spirit will teach us all things. So we study the word and encounter an area which we have no understanding of or answer for. Running first to a commentary, one man's idea of what that scripture is saying, is a mistake, in my opinion. Why not take some time, study related scripture, PRAY about it...meditate on it? Give God TIME to answer us instead of living in the here and now as this culture is so accustomed to in these days? Patience is of God, we need to use it. Getting other opinion is good, after we have take time to work it out first.

    Bosco

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    Quote Originally Posted by HisLeast View Post
    Because the Bible doesn't have an answer for every question we can ask, we must derive out of necessity.

    But I do agree that its a dangerous game. At this point we've got so many camps claiming authority over what the scriptures "really" say that I find it impossible to discern real truth, unless by pure luck, and even then I wouldn't really know.
    However, our Lord did this:

    Eph. 4:7-12

    7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
    “WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
    HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
    AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”
    9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,


    so that there can be this:

    12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.


    and this:

    I Cor. 3:1-9

    1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?
    5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.


    and this:

    I Cor. 3:18-23

    18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, “He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS”; 20 and again, “THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS.” 21 So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.


    So, let us receive what the Lord has provided for us, and follow this passage below:

    I Thess 5:21

    21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;


    And, by implication, "discard the bad."

    Above all, do the following:

    Eph. 4: 1-3

    1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by billy-brown 2 View Post
    However, our Lord did this:

    Eph. 4:7-12

    7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
    “WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
    HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
    AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”
    9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,


    so that there can be this:

    12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.


    and this:

    I Cor. 3:1-9

    1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?
    5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.


    and this:

    I Cor. 3:18-23

    18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, “He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS”; 20 and again, “THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS.” 21 So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.


    So, let us receive what the Lord has provided for us, and follow this passage below:

    I Thess 5:21

    21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;


    And, by implication, "discard the bad."

    Above all, do the following:

    Eph. 4: 1-3

    1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    Excellent. So of all the mutually exclusive doctrines present in Christianity, which ones are true, and which ones are false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HisLeast View Post
    Excellent. So of all the mutually exclusive doctrines present in Christianity, which ones are true, and which ones are false?

    Well, some generalities are in order here--and I am developing this premise concerning your question in my own life:

    All true doctrine--if it is true--must achieve congruence with the message of "the Word of the truth of the Kingdom of Christ Jesus."


    So, as we have clear understanding of "the Gospel of Jesus Christ", we can develop sufficient "discernment" with respect to "truth" and "error" in our lives.

    The issue here, though, seems to be this: our God allowed Jesus to "descend" and "ascend" and endure everything for us, and specifically so that we could "have all of the gift ministry" that we have.

    This resource of "gift ministry", then, is given by Christ--and is not going to go away at all.

    Nevertheless, the most important resource we have for consideration of correct doctrine is Jesus Christ Himself (along with the Holy Spirit). As you know, the writer of the Revelation gives us several examples of false teaching among the people of God--and Jesus personally confronts it:

    Rev. 2:14-16

    14 ‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. 15 ‘So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 ‘Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

    Now, our Lord loves us so much--therefore, He comes on the scene Himself and "rebukes and chastens us" so that we might "be zealous and repent"--and He does this so we might bear "more fruit" and so on. (Bless His Name . . .)

    Even the Laodicean Church was told by Christ "I am about to spit you out of my mouth--unless you repent." (This is the literal Greek configuration of this concept.)

    Rev. 3:14-16
    14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
    The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
    15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will (the literal Greek has "I am about to") spit you out of My mouth.

    Now, we want to listen to Jesus--He is truth, indeed, and perfect and so on.

    But, our Savior has said that "His people can represent Him in His Name" in this world--and He often uses His people to "build His Body"--so that the "gates of Hell would not prevail" and so on. Of course, people are still developing--and are not so perfect yet.

    Nevertheless, don't be concerned about how God's will get truth to His people--He's got all of this covered, and has a variety of avenues to get Gospel Truth to His people:


    1) The Lord Jesus Himself.
    2) The Holy Spirit (the abiding anointing that teaches--I John 2:27).
    3) ALL of the SAINTS--as they would be used in "gift ministry."
    4) The Heavens and The Creation (Psalm 19).
    5) etc. . . .

    With this arsenal, we will be just fine . . .

    My hope, of course, is that we will all develop in discernment: let us hold to the good, and discard the bad.

    Let us all learn the correct answer(s) to the question "What is the Gospel?" and we will be OK also.

    (I haven't arrived yet by any means, but I'm growing in grace--with the help of all at this forum also . . .)

    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amos_with_goats View Post
    This was originally a reply on the thread it was split off here to avoid derailing the original thread; Keep an eye open to the teachings you listen to in these last days.

    "Derived doctrine"

    For each of these 'teachers' there is a trap. So many, myself included spend time studying the writing of other men. Naturally, there are going to be those we agree with one way or another. We tend to form our own understanding of what these men write / teach. I personally refer to these things as 'derived doctrine'.

    Derived doctrine has it's roots in scripture, but relies on an external explanation to make it work. For instance, the RCC doctrine of purgatory can be supported by certain scripture, but is not in scripture it's self and is therefore FALSE. Many doctrines we see in these end times fall along these lines.

    The thing I once believed about the timing of the Lord's return was a 'derived doctrine' and while it made sense if you took it into scripture, it never seemed to be in scripture on it's own.

    One of the ways to see this is if the explanations have to be more complicated then they should be, or if certain scripture has to be taken slightly out of context to make something fit (like when someone has to 'tweak' work meanings to make something fit, often citing something about the 'original language' or using multiple translations.

    Blessings to all who follow this thread, may we all be keen to see the error that we are being sold. It is not through our own reason we will see it, but only by the Holy Spirit we are protected.
    Amen! AWG,

    1 Cor 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

    Firstfruits

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    The trinity is a derived doctrine.. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water
    Dragonfighter1
    Vivo est Ministro

  11. #11
    We have not only been told to study to show ourselves approved a workman unto God, but also that we are to prove all things. When we have our minds made up about any doctrine going in, we lose the ability to prove anything. We must empty ourselves to the Word, allow the Spirit to teach us as promised while keeping in mind that NO teaching will EVER contradict scripture. Rarely do I personally use a commentary. I don't think them as bad or anything like that, but we have been given a promise that the Spirit will teach us all things. So we study the word and encounter an area which we have no understanding of or answer for. Running first to a commentary, one man's idea of what that scripture is saying, is a mistake, in my opinion. Why not take some time, study related scripture, PRAY about it...meditate on it? Give God TIME to answer us instead of living in the here and now as this culture is so accustomed to in these days? Patience is of God, we need to use it. Getting other opinion is good, after we have take time to work it out first.
    I agree that we all should pray for the knowledge and wisdom to understand what we read from the word. Commentaries and books have their place though in doing really in depth studies. I see so many read the commentaries in their study bibles before they read the scriptures, setting up their understanding based on what the commentary had to say instead of relying on the Spirit to lead in the understanding. I do read the commentary in my study bible when I find something I don't quite get but often times I find I need to go back to the scriptures to really understand.

  12. #12
    bosco Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by mizzdy View Post
    I agree that we all should pray for the knowledge and wisdom to understand what we read from the word. Commentaries and books have their place though in doing really in depth studies. I see so many read the commentaries in their study bibles before they read the scriptures, setting up their understanding based on what the commentary had to say instead of relying on the Spirit to lead in the understanding. I do read the commentary in my study bible when I find something I don't quite get but often times I find I need to go back to the scriptures to really understand.
    Mizzdy, I once had a preacher stand up holding the Matthew Henry Commentary and say, "I can lay down my bible and preach from this (MHC) because it is just as inspired to me." I left two weeks later.

    There is nothing wrong with commentaries or books, but I would think more for conformation, a second witness if you will, to what we waited and allowed God to show us.

    Bosco

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    Quote Originally Posted by bosco View Post
    Mizzdy, I once had a preacher stand up holding the Matthew Henry Commentary and say, "I can lay down my bible and preach from this (MHC) because it is just as inspired to me." I left two weeks later.

    There is nothing wrong with commentaries or books, but I would think more for conformation, a second witness if you will, to what we waited and allowed God to show us.

    Bosco
    Why did it take two weeks??? Just kidding!



  14. #14
    bosco Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiKnife View Post
    Why did it take two weeks??? Just kidding!


    I was still in shock by the next Sunday, then went again to say goodbye to those who stayed. I did hear the attendence dropped from 500 to 200 within a few months after that. Shame, I still miss that place and it was 15 years ago. Best worship music by a live band I still to this day have ever heard.

    Bosco

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amos_with_goats View Post
    This was originally a reply on the thread it was split off here to avoid derailing the original thread; Keep an eye open to the teachings you listen to in these last days.

    "Derived doctrine"

    For each of these 'teachers' there is a trap. So many, myself included spend time studying the writing of other men. Naturally, there are going to be those we agree with one way or another. We tend to form our own understanding of what these men write / teach. I personally refer to these things as 'derived doctrine'.

    Derived doctrine has it's roots in scripture, but relies on an external explanation to make it work. For instance, the RCC doctrine of purgatory can be supported by certain scripture, but is not in scripture it's self and is therefore FALSE. Many doctrines we see in these end times fall along these lines.

    The thing I once believed about the timing of the Lord's return was a 'derived doctrine' and while it made sense if you took it into scripture, it never seemed to be in scripture on it's own.

    One of the ways to see this is if the explanations have to be more complicated then they should be, or if certain scripture has to be taken slightly out of context to make something fit (like when someone has to 'tweak' work meanings to make something fit, often citing something about the 'original language' or using multiple translations.

    Blessings to all who follow this thread, may we all be keen to see the error that we are being sold. It is not through our own reason we will see it, but only by the Holy Spirit we are protected.
    That is why I read the early Church fathers, all prior to 325, whle still not perfect, quite a few of them actually know the apostles and what they taught.

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