Are Christians part of Israel?

[bosco]

I heard a story last night on Christian radio about JC Penny, when he was alive, was interviewing some guy for a job over dinner. As soon as dinner was served, the applicant picked up the salt and while sprinkling his food, began to talk about the new position. Mr. Penny said, "you won't have to worry about the job, you aren't getting it." Confused, the guy asked why not, to which Mr. Penny said, "any man who puts salt on his food before tasting it makes decisions before having facts." Let's try not to sprinkle salt on our food before getting all the facts.

Paul wrote:
"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

So some who are are "of Israel," are not Israel. "Israel" is a term that is used to describe a man (Jacob), a land, a nation, and God's people.

"Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel;" (This term, "my people Israel," is used over 20 times)

Many "gentiles" have come in faith to Christ. But when they come in faith, are they "still gentiles?"

1Co 12:1 "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. (2) Ye know that ye were Gentiles,"
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,

So when we lived without Messiah, we were considered gentiles, strangers, even aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel:

Eph 2:12 "That at that time ye were without the Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world."

But watch what happens through Christ:

Eph 2:13 "But now in the Messiah Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of the Messiah."

So then, what are we now if we were gentiles and aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel?:

Eph 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

So we Christians aren't strangers and foreignors of the Commonwealth of Israel, God's people, but are both fellow citizens with the saints AND fellowcitizens with the Household of God.

Israel is the lost sheep.

Matt 15:24 "But answering, He said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

But there are "other sheep".....

John 10:16a "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:"

The other sheep become one fold with the lost sheep.

John 10:16b "them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

Is this not what Paul speaks of here:

Rom 11:17 "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, have been grafted in among them, and came to share the root and fatness of the olive tree,"

The new covenant is what Jesus ushered in. Yet, there is a prophecy of this new covenant in Jer 31:31-34, which in part says:

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

This is elaborated on in Hebrews 8. There is no mention of gentiles, no mention of foreignors, strangers, only two houses, Israel and Judah. If we become "one fold" with the lost sheep, we see us fitting into this prophecy perfectly. If we are not one fold with the lost sheep, Israel, where are the Christians?

Any thoughts?

Bosco

[Benaiah]

Even under the Old Covenant a non Hebrew could become an Israelite, and be considered as one native born.

Exo 12:48 "And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.


Eze 47:22 "It shall be that you will divide it by lot as an inheritance for yourselves, and for the strangers who dwell among you and who bear children among you. They shall be to you as native-born among the children of Israel; they shall have an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

[bosco]

Even under the Old Covenant a non Hebrew could become an Israelite, and be considered as one native born.

Very true Benaiah, and often overlooked.

Bosco

[Joyfulee]

I heard a story last night on Christian radio about JC Penny, when he was alive, was interviewing some guy for a job over dinner. As soon as dinner was served, the applicant picked up the salt and while sprinkling his food, began to talk about the new position. Mr. Penny said, "you won't have to worry about the job, you aren't getting it." Confused, the guy asked why not, to which Mr. Penny said, "any man who puts salt on his food before tasting it makes decisions before having facts." Let's try not to sprinkle salt on our food before getting all the facts.

Paul wrote:
"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

So some who are are "of Israel," are not Israel. "Israel" is a term that is used to describe a man (Jacob), a land, a nation, and God's people.

"Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel;" (This term, "my people Israel," is used over 20 times)

Many "gentiles" have come in faith to Christ. But when they come in faith, are they "still gentiles?"

1Co 12:1 "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. (2) Ye know that ye were Gentiles,"
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,

So when we lived without Messiah, we were considered gentiles, strangers, even aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel:

Eph 2:12 "That at that time ye were without the Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world."

But watch what happens through Christ:

Eph 2:13 "But now in the Messiah Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of the Messiah."

So then, what are we now if we were gentiles and aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel?:

Eph 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

So we Christians aren't strangers and foreignors of the Commonwealth of Israel, God's people, but are both fellow citizens with the saints AND fellowcitizens with the Household of God.

Israel is the lost sheep.

Matt 15:24 "But answering, He said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

But there are "other sheep".....

John 10:16a "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:"

The other sheep become one fold with the lost sheep.

John 10:16b "them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

Is this not what Paul speaks of here:

Rom 11:17 "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, have been grafted in among them, and came to share the root and fatness of the olive tree,"

The new covenant is what Jesus ushered in. Yet, there is a prophecy of this new covenant in Jer 31:31-34, which in part says:

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

This is elaborated on in Hebrews 8. There is no mention of gentiles, no mention of foreignors, strangers, only two houses, Israel and Judah. If we become "one fold" with the lost sheep, we see us fitting into this prophecy perfectly. If we are not one fold with the lost sheep, Israel, where are the Christians?

Any thoughts?

Bosco

This is a very interesting post and I loved the story about JC Penny!

I'm wondering if the word "seed," could sometimes be used in speaking about Israel and born-again Gentiles, as one and the same.

Maybe my question will just confuse your post, so that maybe this should be a separate thread. I'm not sure.

Blessings!

[keck553]

Jews and Gentiles are one in Messiah.

[bosco]

Jews and Gentiles are one in Messiah.

True, but God's people are called Israel indirectly more times than I can count, and the term "My people Israel" appears over 20 times in the prophets alone. Do you believe you belong to Israel?

Bosco

[bosco]

This is a very interesting post and I loved the story about JC Penny!

I'm wondering if the word "seed," could sometimes be used in speaking about Israel and born-again Gentiles, as one and the same.

Maybe my question will just confuse your post, so that maybe this should be a separate thread. I'm not sure.

Blessings!

Do you refer to Abraham's seed? If so, that is another tie in that I left off because my initial post in this thread was long enough.

Bosco

[Watchmen]

Are Christians a part of Israel? YES

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord is rich unto all that call upon his name.

Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into there own olive tree?

Romans 12:5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one member one of another.

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 6:15-16
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.
12 That at times past you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonweath of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandment in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you that were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of us all, who is above all, and through us all, and in you all.

We can clearly see that scripture teaches, the Jew and Gentile/Israel and the Church have become one new man. That there is only one Faith, and that we are all apart of the same body in Christ. That a Jew is not one that is a Jew outwardly, but a Jew is one that is one inwardly circumcised in the heart by the Spirit, regardless of blood line. Scripture tell us that believing Gentiles have been grafted into the good Olive Tree which is Israel, who's root is Christ, and whoever has been baptized into Christ, have become citizens of the true Israel of God with the saints, being seeds of Abraham, heirs according to the promise. We have not replaced Israel at all, but we are included with them in all the promises of God, being one with and equal to them, not separate from them in any way.

[keck553]

True, but God's people are called Israel indirectly more times than I can count, and the term "My people Israel" appears over 20 times in the prophets alone. Do you believe you belong to Israel?

Bosco

Yes, of course I do. Physically and spiritually. See ya in Yerushalayim!

[bosco]

Are Christians a part of Israel? YES

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord is rich unto all that call upon his name.

Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into there own olive tree?

Romans 12:5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one member one of another.

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 6:15-16
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.
12 That at times past you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonweath of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandment in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you that were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of us all, who is above all, and through us all, and in you all.

We can clearly see that scripture teaches, the Jew and Gentile/Israel and the Church have become one new man. That there is only one Faith, and that we are all apart of the same body in Christ. That a Jew is not one that is a Jew outwardly, but a Jew is one that is one inwardly circumcised in the heart by the Spirit, regardless of blood line. Scripture tell us that believing Gentiles have been grafted into the good Olive Tree which is Israel, who's root is Christ, and whoever has been baptized into Christ, have become citizens of the true Israel of God with the saints, being seeds of Abraham, heirs according to the promise. We have not replaced Israel at all, but we are included with them in all the promises of God, being one with and equal to them, not separate from them in any way.

A well thought out post! The reason I started this thread is because while studying the issue as to whether or not we become part of Israel, I learned that "Israel" as a people, are eternal. So if one fold is Israel, and us "other sheep" become one fold with a group already called Israel for eternity, then we too must be called by the same or there is division in a place where Christ said there is no division.

Bosco

[Joyfulee]

Do you refer to Abraham's seed? If so, that is another tie in that I left off because my initial post in this thread was long enough.

Bosco

No, it seems to me that if a reference is explicity to "Abraham's seed," then that should be clear...Abraham's seed or progeny.

Rev. 12: 17 says:

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

This verse will be interpreted in various ways depending upon a person's view or belief about end times.

In my opinion of interpretation, I think that the woman is "Israel." I also think "Christians" will be on earth during the tribulation (or at least most of it). So, I was wondering when the Israelites flee into the mountains, and Satan is angry and goes to make war with the remnant of her seed, if that "seed" are born again Christians?

Have I made myself clear?

Blessings!

[BroRog]

Cute story. I doubt JC Penny actually said it, but if he did, it merely illustrates a hasty conclusion, i.e. a man who salts his food will always make decisions without getting the facts. Unless JC Penny can clearly demonstrate that this is always the case, then he is making a decision based on a hunch, which is also making a decision without knowing the facts.

Paul wrote:
"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

So some who are are "of Israel," are not Israel. "Israel" is a term that is used to describe a man (Jacob), a land, a nation, and God's people.

In this context, we summarize his statement thus, "out of the larger set of all the sons of Jacob, Israel is a sub set of them."

This in no way suggests that Gentiles are part of that subset.

Many "gentiles" have come in faith to Christ. But when they come in faith, are they "still gentiles?"

1Co 12:1 "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. (2) Ye know that ye were Gentiles,"

The Greek term "ethnos" has a figurative use, i.e. pagans, heathen. In this context, Paul employs the term "ethnos" to indicate those who were being led by idols, thus some of our English translations properly translate the word "heathens" or "pagans" rather than "Gentiles" since rendering this as "Gentiles" would mislead the reader. The point is, some of the Corinthians were "idol" worshipers. When the converted to Christianity, they were no longer idol worshipers even though they remained Gentiles.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,

The assumption here is that his readers were formerly Gentiles, but an examination of the text reveals Paul's intended meaning. He begins to remind his readers of a time when they were unaware of certain issues surrounding the gospel message. He interupts himself midsentence to clarify what he means by "in the flesh". He picks up his original thought in verse 12.

His initial thought is bold, and his addition is in italics.

11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," [which is] performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 [remember] that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Paul isn't saying that the Ephesians were Gentiles in times past but now they are something else. The fact that he repeats himself in verse 12 is our clue that Paul intends to say that the Ephesians were formerly separate from Christ etc. not formerly Gentiles.

He repeats himself again, using different wording, in the next verse.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


The term "far off" refers to their proximity to the information about Christ and God. The metaphor employs location to make an analogy between a person's proximity to the land of Israel and a person's access to the information about Christ, the covenants and the promises. The idea being discussed here is access to God, not one's status as a Gentile or an Israelite. And so the discussion centers on the Ephesians former lack of access and their subsequent and current access, not their former status as Gentiles.

But watch what happens through Christ:

Eph 2:13 "But now in the Messiah Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of the Messiah."

So then, what are we now if we were gentiles and aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel?:

Eph 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

This analysis skips over Paul's use of a metaphor and his conclusion, which, when taken into consideration, has the opposite meaning of your proposal.

For He Himself is our peace, who made both [groups into] one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, [which is] the Law of commandments [contained] in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, [thus] establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

In this passage I take note of the comparison Paul makes between the dividing wall, which essentially and effectively denies a Gentile access to the temple, and the Spirit, which gives both Jew and Gentile access to the Father. Whereas a Gentile was denied access to the temple because he was not a citizen of the commonwealth and therefore, not allowed access to the temple, a Gentile is given access to God through the Spirit.

Jew and Gentile were NOT united through the process of naturalization, but through a common spirit because through the cross "those who were near", i.e. the citizens of the commonwealth of Israel, and "those who were far", i.e. the Ephesians and other Gentiles were united in one NEW man through the cross.

Paul isn't saying, "formerly you were not part of the commonwealth but now you are." He is saying, "formerly you were denied access to the temple because you were not citizens of the commonwealth, but now you have access to God via the Spirit."

In other words, Paul is saying that a Gentile does NOT need to go through the naturalization process to be a citizen of the commonwealth in order to gain access to God. Instead, he has access to God through the Spirit because of what Jesus did on the cross.

[Joyfulee]

29 - "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Gal. 3

Blessings!

[BroRog]

29 - "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Gal. 3

Blessings!

Yes. Abraham's seed.

[keck553]

whew, the dispensatioanlism is thick today...