The Commandments...Help

[paradiseinn]

revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus


"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God," (Rom. 14:5-6).

I don't understand why we can have sunday worship, rom.14:5-6 says it's ok
Rev.14:12 says to obey the commanments

[Followtheway]

The new testament basically simplifies everything for us, we realize that the sabbath day isnt as important as your relationship with the Lord, however we know that not one stroke of the law will pass away so we follow the sabbath no long out of fear, but because we love our Lord (and cuz we need a break)

[tt1106]

Jesus is telling us to keep the commandments, but when he dies and is resurrected he becomes head of the church.
When the temple is destroyed it really is not relevant because he became the temple. When we are in him and he in us then we rest in Christ continually. Because of this, observing an official day of rest is redundant.

[Followtheway]

On the seventh day when the Lord rested he didnt rest to make a temple nor did he say that this is a day for the temple, but rather a day for rest. Notice how all the disciples continued on by celebrating the sabbath day.

[paradiseinn]

If we work on the Sabbath(saturday), we break the commandment?
It is ok to worship on sunday?

[brakelite]

revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus


"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God," (Rom. 14:5-6).

I don't understand why we can have sunday worship, rom.14:5-6 says it's ok
Rev.14:12 says to obey the commanments

Hi.
It is true that Revelation reveals that those who in contradistinction to those who accept the mark, are keeping the commandments. It also tells us in the very last chapter just 8 verses from the end of the Bible, that only those who obey God's commandments have the right to eat of the tree of life and enter into the New Jerusalem. (Rev 22:14) [Please don't get all upset those of you who observe Sunday. What you do sincerely, believing it to be right, is acceptable in the sight of God. If you have a love of the truth, and are following truth to the best of your knowledge. "He that knows to do good but does it not, to him it is sin".[

What you must decide my friend is whether or not the 4th commandment as written by God with His own finger in tables of stone was permanent, or temporary. What was God's intention when He included it among those other commandments? How important do you think is the Sabbath commandment to God? How much does He stress throughout the scriptures the importance of keeping and observing it? How often did Jesus correct the Pharisees and the rulers of Israel with regards to proper Sabbath observance? How many times did He show the real character and nature of the Sabbath? He remembered the Sabbath day. Jesus showed that it was right to do good on the Sabbath. Jesus showed that it was not the rules and appendages added to the Sabbath that ought to be observed as per the restrictions etc laid upon it by the religious leaders, but rather to recognise that it was a day sanctified and made holy by the Creator,Jesus Himself, when He said that He was the Lord of the Sabbath day, not man.What you must decide is whether man has the power, authority, or right to change, alter, or do away with any of the commandments, especially the 4th.

The Roman church lays claim to that right, and boasts in her chatechisms that responsibility for the change to Sunday can be laid directly at her feet.
In her catechisms she even has the effrontery to show the ten commandments as changed by her. The 2nd is removed, the 10th is divided to make up the ten, and the 4th is so altered to virtually make it unrecognizable. Not only is the day changed from the 7th day to the 1st, , but even the time of the day from midnight to midnight instead of sunset to sunset. All this I believe in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy that the little horn would 'think or intend to change times and laws". Did the Roman church have the right to do that? Does she have that authority, to change what God has written even with His own hand? And does the protestant world have the right to follow her?

Another question you must ask yourself is whether the disciples changed the day. Is there any evidence or teaching that supports this? The answer is a resounding no. Jesus Himself said that not one tittle or jot would pass from the law while this earth stands. Is the earth still standing? Then so also does the law, just as God wrote it, just as He intended it to remain till the end of time and beyond.

The passage you quoted from Romans is not about the keeping of Sunday as opposed to the Sabbath. Can you imagine the furore that neglect of the Sabbath would have brought upon the new disciples of Jesus, most of whom were Jews? Can you imagine the huge controversy that would have engendered? Talk about an excuse for stoning them. But no, not one word in all scripture is there concerning any debate, any argument, any controversy regarding the Sabbath or Sunday. Circumcision yes, the various holy days and annual religious festivals of the OT yes (that is what Rom 14:5,6 and Collosians 2:16 are about,) but Sunday was not an issue at this time.
And by the way, the passage in Romans is not about the day or about eating etc per se, but about whether we should judge others in keeping conscientious observances. And the answer to that is no.

In later centuries it certainly became an issue, and many Christians were persecuted for continuing to observe the Sabbath, particularly by the Roman church. But in the days of the apostolic church, Sunday as a day of rest or celebration as a replacement of the Sabbath was unheard of.

Many will tell you that to observe the Sabbath or my recommending of the Sabbath is to bring you into bondage. But I would also recommend to you that you ought not steal, kill or commit adultery. Yet none dare suggest that any of those are bondage .

They would also suggest that the Sabbath was just for the Jews. But the Sabbath was introduced to Adam. He was not a Jew. And Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man which means everybody.
Throughout the time of the nation of Israel, strangers or Gentiles were to keep the Sabbath when sojourning in the land. They were included in the blessings that the Sabbath affords all those who keep it.

Finally, there is absolutely nothing wrong with attending church on Sunday. Nor is there anything wrong with attending worship services any other day of the week. But let no-one convince you that any or all of these replaces what God has commanded and written on stone.

[BroRog]

revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus


"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God," (Rom. 14:5-6).

I don't understand why we can have sunday worship, rom.14:5-6 says it's ok
Rev.14:12 says to obey the commanments

Notice the text says keep the commandments, not obey the commandments.

The scribes and Pharisees obeyed the commandments; but they didn't keep them.

I keep the Sabbath everyday, even on days when I'm working. How is that? The Seventh Day rest does nothing more than provide us an opportunity to look forward to our day of actual rest in which Jesus comes to establish peace and prosperity among his followers, removing sin and death from their lives.

All human beings are obligated to look forward to that time of rest, but only the Jews have been obligated to perform a ritual rest every week in anticipation of the next age.

[brakelite]

Notice the text says keep the commandments, not obey the commandments.

The scribes and Pharisees obeyed the commandments; but they didn't keep them.

I keep the Sabbath everyday, even on days when I'm working. How is that? The Seventh Day rest does nothing more than provide us an opportunity to look forward to our day of actual rest in which Jesus comes to establish peace and prosperity among his followers, removing sin and death from their lives.

All human beings are obligated to look forward to that time of rest, but only the Jews have been obligated to perform a ritual rest every week in anticipation of the next age.

That all sounds very nice and spiritual, but can you back up any of it with the Bible?

As to whether we are to keep, or obey, that is a very good point. You are wrong about the Pharisees. They kept the word of God, in fact were quite fanatical about it, but certainly did not obey it.
But I think the way they kept it is very different from how we are to keep it. Jesus said of those who promoted the teachings of man as doctrine, thus negating the truth, that "with their lips they honor Me, but their hearts are far from Me" . They spoke the words of God, they called upon Him, but in truth they wanted nothing from Him.
Similar to Isaiah 58. That is an excellent read. And of course we have those who cried "Lord, Lord" but Jesus didn't know them. All examples of men who proclaimed to have faith in God , who claimed to be 'keeping' His word, but in reality were in rebellion against God, His law, and His commandments.

The new covenant entails God placing His law upon our hearts. It is in our hearts that we are to keep His law and His commandments. God initiates obedience by giving us the power to do so and the desire to do so.

The keeping we are required to do entails obedience. It includes fidelity to the truth. It includes "remembering the Sabbath day to keep it holy". Just as 'keeping' the other nine also requires obedience. God did not bless or sanctify anything other than a 24 hour period between sunset and sunset on the 7th day. It was and is the day that has been blessed, and nowhere has He ever suggested that the blessing and holiness and sanctification of that day has been removed. A change in the nature or timing of the day was not taught by Jesus, nor was it taught by any of the writers of the NT gospels or epistles.

However, the 'keeping' of the commandments as you were suggesting I think goes beyond mere obedience for the sake of obedience. Just as we can't obey the 6th commandment without the aid of the Holy Spirit, for we all get angry needlessly and unfairly and need help an that area, so also do we need help to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. This removes the keeping of it from any charge of legalism, or works based salvation. Keeping, observing, obeying, whatever commandment does not, has never nor ever will grant us salvation.

Jesus said that if we love, both God and man, we will fulfill the law. It is love that motivates us and enables us not to get angry with those who abuse us. It is love that motivates us and enables us to be honest with everybody. It is love that motivates us and enables us to abstain from idol worship. It is love that motivates us and enables us to respect and honor God's holy name. It is love that motivates us and enables us to remember to
keep holy the Sabbath day, to not work on that day, to dedicate that specific period of 24 hours which God Himself set aside for that very purpose, as a day of worship, fellowship, service, and meditation. and that love that gives us the power is also a gift. It comes to us via the Holy Spirit that fills us.

The Sabbath is a day to celebrate creation by worshiping the Creator. It is a day for expressing particular gratitude for our re-creation in the new birth. Jesus is the focus of the day, the reason for the day. We can work any other day of the week, but God has set this particular day aside that we may keep an appointment with Him. He has given it to us as a gift. Let us rejoice and accept this wonderful gift gratefully and as Isaiah says, call the Sabbath a delight, holy of the Lord, honourable, honouring Him, not doing our own ways nor finding our own pleasure, nor speaking our own words, but let us delight ourselves in the Lord. Is 58:13,14.

[revrobor]

I don't understand why we can have sunday worship, rom.14:5-6 says it's ok
Rev.14:12 says to obey the commanments

The Bible clearly states that the "Sabbath" is a day of rest. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus say to build buildings for the purpose of conducting religious "services" to worship Him. In fact the Bible indicates the worship God prefers is to love and obey Him and to love and serve our fellow man EVERY day. Therefore, what day you choose to "worship" on is a moot point.

[bosco]

revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus


"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God," (Rom. 14:5-6).

I don't understand why we can have sunday worship, rom.14:5-6 says it's ok
Rev.14:12 says to obey the commanments

Greetings Brother. You can worship any day you wish, including on Sunday. While not the Sabbath, worship should be an around the clock mind set for those who love God.

As for the Romans verses, there is another way to view them and if you are interested, I will share my viewpoint. If not, enjoy your Sunday.

Bosco

[BroRog]

That all sounds very nice and spiritual, but can you back up any of it with the Bible?

Yes, I can. And I resent being called nice.

In the following passage from Philippians, Paul argues that he has reason to boast according to the flesh. In that boast he points out that with respect to the Law "a Pharisee." The Pharisees were well known as those who obeyed the Law. In fact, the Pharisees had formed a brotherhood, a type of Promise Keepers, to hold each other accountable. Here is Paul.

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

Among his list of accomplishments, Paul says that he was, with respect to the law "a Pharisee", and "as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." This is the goal which most if not all the Pharisees aspired to meet. The Pharisees were the good guys. They studied the Bible and studied with the scholarship of their day in order to obey the law to the nth degree. They would fit right in with any good, Christ loving, holy, church in America and welcomed with open arms.

We think of the Pharisees as the bad guys because of the confrontations Jesus had with them. But we will miss the significance of Jesus' interactions with the Pharisees if we think that the Pharisees were not the righteous, moral, law abiding, good folks they were.

Here is another passage from the book of Acts, chapter 26.

Agrippa said to Paul, "You are permitted to speak for yourself." Then Paul stretched out his hand and proceeded to make his defense: "In regard to all the things of which I am accused by the Jews, I consider myself fortunate, King Agrippa, that I am about to make my defense before you today; especially because you are an expert in all customs and questions among the Jews; therefore I beg you to listen to me patiently. So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem; since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion. And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers; the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day And for this hope, O King, I am being accused by Jews.

Paul is on trial for his freedom and his life. In his defense, he offers his background and his credentials as a Pharisee to substantiate his good character. With regard to his Jewish religion, Paul practiced the strictest form of his religion. In fact, Paul went beyond his obligations at times, as exemplified by his Nazarite vow, which, as I understand it, was optional.

Acts 18:18 Paul, having remained many days longer, took leave of the brethren and put out to sea for Syria, and with him were Priscilla and Aquila In Cenchrea he had his hair cut, for he was keeping a vow.

I think this is good evidence that the Pharisees prided themselves on their obedience to the Mosaic law.

Now, please don't say that I am nice.

[bosco]

The Pharisees were well known as those who obeyed the Law.

Not so, the Pharisees were well known for adding additions and burdens to God's law that allowed them to rule over their society. They obeyed what was convienient to them, no more. The rebukes by Messiah and Paul should make that clear.

Bosco

[AlanR742]

revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus


"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God," (Rom. 14:5-6).

I don't understand why we can have sunday worship, rom.14:5-6 says it's ok
Rev.14:12 says to obey the commanments

The Sabbath is NO longer in effect, CHRIST is our sabbath - which is why he was able to break the sabbath laws.
PS: The sabbath was on SATURDAY, not on sunday - catholics changed it.

I encourage you to read brother Stewart's article on the subject:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/the_n...mmandments.htm

I don't have the verses right now (and it's late so can't look them up at the moment, but I'll write an article about it later).

[BroRog]

Not so, the Pharisees were well known for adding additions and burdens to God's law that allowed them to rule over their society. They obeyed what was convienient to them, no more. The rebukes by Messiah and Paul should make that clear.

Bosco

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you disputing the scriptural evidence I presented? As I said in my last post, you won't understand the significance of what Jesus and Paul said about them if you think the Pharisees weren't obeying the law. If they put a hedge around the law, this only proves they were committed to keeping themselves from disobedience.

Go back and review Jesus' interactions with the Pharisees. I don't think you will find Jesus rebuking them for disobedience. Rather, he rebuked them for hypocrisy.

In English, we call someone a hypocrite when they say one thing and do another. But in the Greek culture, the "hypocritace" (sp) was a stage actor. Jesus often criticized the Pharisees, not for disobedience, but for "play acting." In other words, they were obeying the law on the outside, but on the inside they didn't love God. The following verse is a sample of Jesus' rebuke in which we get a glimpse into the meaning of the word "hypocrisy."

Matthew 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

The contrast is between what they appear to be -- how they look to men -- and what they are inside where he and God can see. In Greek theater the hypocratace would hold a mask in front of his face to play the part of his character. The actor appeared to be the character on the front. But behind the mask was the actor performing according to a script.

Jesus said that the Pharisees appeared righteous to men, but inside were completely different.

[bosco]

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you disputing the scriptural evidence I presented? As I said in my last post, you won't understand the significance of what Jesus and Paul said about them if you think the Pharisees weren't obeying the law. If they put a hedge around the law, this only proves they were committed to keeping themselves from disobedience.

Go back and review Jesus' interactions with the Pharisees. I don't think you will find Jesus rebuking them for disobedience. Rather, he rebuked them for hypocrisy.

In English, we call someone a hypocrite when they say one thing and do another. But in the Greek culture, the "hypocritace" (sp) was a stage actor. Jesus often criticized the Pharisees, not for disobedience, but for "play acting." In other words, they were obeying the law on the outside, but on the inside they didn't love God. The following verse is a sample of Jesus' rebuke in which we get a glimpse into the meaning of the word "hypocrisy."

Matthew 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

The contrast is between what they appear to be -- how they look to men -- and what they are inside where he and God can see. In Greek theater the hypocratace would hold a mask in front of his face to play the part of his character. The actor appeared to be the character on the front. But behind the mask was the actor performing according to a script.

Jesus said that the Pharisees appeared righteous to men, but inside were completely different.

I don't believe this area is designed for this type of discussion? In any event, if you can read through the NT and not see all the man made additions to God's laws (not eating with gentiles, not going into their homes, the wall of perdition, burdens added to Sabbath, additions to food laws, etc.) and not see that they obeyed only what was convienient, I can't help you. While this action was not "all" the Jews, those in leadership certainly fall into this category, hence the ridiculous amounts of rebukes by Jesus.

Bosco