Whoever has been born of God does not sin

[PJW]

I agree, to a point, but I was emphasizing the "them that obey Him" portion of this Hebrews verse to augment my post that a man CAN live without sin. There are people that are obedient, now on earth.
I can't tell if you mean we won't be like Him till He returns, or if you agree with me that we, if obedient, are like Him now, and I will already be like Him when He returns.
I was "born again" after I was crucified, buried and "raised again by the glory of the Father" to walk in newness of life, as Romans 6:4 spells out. I was born of a godly seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit. Thanks be to God!
Jesus said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." The next thing He said was, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:32, 34)
If you still sin, you are not free. Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or he will hold to the one and despise the other." (Matt 6:24) What does that say about "servants of sin"?
God sent Jesus to give us new life, and that life is "in" His Son. And Romans 6 says we are baptized "into Christ".
Every sin is a choice. Just say NO!

[ewq1938]

Every sin is a choice. Just say NO!

1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[rjwmdw]

1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Read the whole chapter of I John 1 and you will see it was directed to those who were NOT Christians.

Verse 3 proves that the people being spoken too were NOT in fellowship with the Christians, therefore they were NOT Christians.

Christians do not sin and sinners are not Christians.

[VerticalReality]

Read the whole chapter of I John 1 and you will see it was directed to those who were NOT Christians.

Verse 3 proves that the people being spoken too were NOT in fellowship with the Christians, therefore they were NOT Christians.

Christians do not sin and sinners are not Christians.

I think if you stop reading at the end of 1 John 1 then you have a good argument. However, it is not wise to stop reading at the end of chapter 1. The beginning of chapter 2 reveals that the Apostle John is not writing to unbelievers. If you know about the customs of the time, you will also know that John's following statement in chapter 2 verse 1 indicates that the recipients of his letter were a part of his studious family.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. -- 1 John 2:1-2

The traditions of the time suggest to us that the Apostle John would not be referring to his audience as "My little children . . . " if they were unbelievers who were not in Christ. No, the truth is that the audience is in Christ; they have just been subjected to false teaching from gnostic deceivers. The purpose of John's letter is to correct these false teachings so that "his little children" will not be led astray from the true faith.

[percho]

I think if you stop reading at the end of 1 John 1 then you have a good argument. However, it is not wise to stop reading at the end of chapter 1. The beginning of chapter 2 reveals that the Apostle John is not writing to unbelievers. If you know about the customs of the time, you will also know that John's following statement in chapter 2 verse 1 indicates that the recipients of his letter were a part of his studious family.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. -- 1 John 2:1-2

The traditions of the time suggest to us that the Apostle John would not be referring to his audience as "My little children . . . " if they were unbelievers who were not in Christ. No, the truth is that the audience is in Christ; they have just been subjected to false teaching from gnostic deceivers. The purpose of John's letter is to correct these false teachings so that "his little children" will not be led astray from the true faith.

I'm with you. From the beginning to end it is written to those in Christ. Fathers from day of Pentecost, little children very recent in Christ and young men those somewhere in between.

[glad4mercy]

Hi Moonglow.

In the Greek, we're looking at a present continuous tense... whoever is born of God does not keep on persistently sinning.

Greek tenses are more sophisticated than English tenses... what John is saying is that someone who keeps on sinning, doesn't try to stop, someone who is in active indolent, self indulgent sin... he is the liar.

Someone who struggles with sin and has occasional lapses is not in the same catagory as above.

I agree with this post. Good answer.

When I first came to the Lord, I was struggling with tobacco addiction, and I started to doubt my salvation because of this verse, ( also because I was struggling with other things as well, which I eventually overcame.) We had a missionary that served in Brazil come to my church giving an update on the work, and I was troubled and discouraged, and the devil was hammering me hard. After the service, I talked to my pastor and the missionary about it, and he pointed out exactly what you said Daughter. He also told me that the Lord did want me to quit smoking, because tobacco could be something the devil might use to try to trip me up to fall back into using drugs, but he told me that just because I was struggling with tobacco it didnt mean that this verse applied to me, ( what a relief). He said he had confidence that I would receive the victory over this addiction. A very short time later, I had a vision in my mind showing me the drugs, the alcohol, the foul language, etc that the Lord saved me from. As I looked upon each thing, it faded into nothingness, and it made me think of how the Lord had removed those things from my life. Then I saw a giant pack of cigarrettes, ( I kid you not) and that quickly began to fade away, and I realized that the same God who delivered me from other addictions would deliver me from this one. ( Perhaps He already had, but I hadnt appropriated the victory yet.) I can't remember if I quit then and there, or a short time later, but I havent smoked in 24 years. Praise God!

Anyone who says they never sin doesnt understand what sin is. Sin is not only the bad things I do, it is also the things I don't do that I should. If someone says they never sin, that means they think that they are absolutely perfect in obedience in every way. I cannot speak for everyone else, but I am not absolutely perfect in obedience at all times, though I strive to be, and when I notice an area that I fall short in, I am grieved and run to God for forgiveness, cleansing, and power to repent. I think that is what John meant. Someone who is born of God loves God, and cannot remain in a sinful lifestyle because it is contrary to their nature, the new nature that loves God. I cannot commit adultery because I love my wife, so in the same way if I truly love God I will not toy with sin and take it lightly. If I sin and have no qualms about it, I think it is an indication that I do not truly love God, and I need to repent and get right.

A sheep may fall in the mud, get dirty and need to be washed, but I don't think you will ever see a sheep wallowing in mud like a pig. It is contrary to the sheeps nature. In the same way, wallowing in sin is contrary to a true believers nature, and as long as we are in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. It is true we must guard against hardening though. That is why one of the last things John says is "My little children, keep yourself from idols." The new birth does not make sin and backsliding impossible, but it makes it such that there is no reason why we should or that we have to.

In conclusion, I think that what John is saying is that if a person claims to have been born again, but yet show by their actions that they have not repented, their profession is not genuine.

God bless.

[ewq1938]

Read the whole chapter of I John 1 and you will see it was directed to those who were NOT Christians.

Verse 3 proves that the people being spoken too were NOT in fellowship with the Christians, therefore they were NOT Christians.

Christians do not sin and sinners are not Christians.

This verse is about anyone, especially Christians as John states "we".

Gill:

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin,.... Notwithstanding believers are cleansed from their sins by the blood of Christ, yet they are not without sin; no man is without sin

we deceive ourselves; such persons must be ignorant of themselves, and put a cheat upon themselves, thinking themselves to be something when they are nothing; flattering themselves what pure and holy creatures they are, when there is a fountain of sin and wickedness in them; these are self-deceptions, sad delusions, and gross impositions upon themselves:

and the truth is not in us; it is a plain case the truth of grace is not in such persons, for if there was a real work of God upon their souls, they would know and discern the plague of their own hearts, the impurity of their nature, and the imperfection of their obedience; nor is the word of truth in them, for if that had an entrance into them, and worked effectually in them, they would in the light of it discover much sin and iniquity in them; and indeed there is no principle of truth, no veracity in them; there is no sincerity nor ingenuity in them; they do not speak honestly and uprightly, but contrary to the dictates of their own conscience.

PNT:

If we say that we have no sin. To say that we have reached a sinless state in which we no longer need the blood of Christ to cleanse us is a deception. This language is in square opposition to the claims of the "Perfectionists" of all ages.

If we confess our sins. Instead of affirming that we are sinless we should confess our sins.

Faithful and just. If we confess our sins the Lord will be faithful to his promise of mercy, and just in requiring us to have the atonement of Christ, to forgive us our sins.

If we say that we have not sinned. God says we have sinned. He declares "There is none righteous; no, not one." Hence, if we affirm that we are sinless we make God a liar.


JFB:

that we have no sin — “HAVE,” not “have had,” must refer not to the past sinful life while unconverted, but to the present state wherein believers have sin even still. Observe, “sin” is in the singular; “(confess our) sins” (1Jo_1:9) in the plural. Sin refers to the corruption of the old man still present in us, and the stain created by the actual sins flowing from that old nature in us. To confess our need of cleansing from present sin is essential to “walking in the light”; so far is the presence of some sin incompatible with our in the main “walking in light.” But the believer hates, confesses, and longs to be delivered from all sin, which is darkness. “They who defend their sins, will see in the great day whether their sins can defend them.”


Matthew Henry:

If we say, We have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us, 1Jo_1:8. We must beware of deceiving ourselves in denying or excusing our sins. The more we see them the more we shall esteem and value the remedy. If we deny them, the truth is not in us, either the truth that is contrary to such denial (we lie in denying our sin), or the truth of religion, is not in us. The Christian religion is the religion of sinners, of such as have sinned, and in whom sin in some measure still dwells. The Christian life is a life of continued repentance, humiliation for and mortification of sin, of continual faith in, thankfulness for, and love to the Redeemer, and hopeful joyful expectation of a day of glorious redemption, in which the believer shall be fully and finally acquitted, and sin abolished for ever. 2. If we say, We have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us, 1Jo_1:10. The denial of our sin not only deceives ourselves, but reflects dishonour upon God. It challenges his veracity. He has abundantly testified of, and testified against, the sin of the world.



Clarke:

1 John 1:8

If we say that we have no sin - This is tantamount to 1Jo_1:10 : If we say that we have not sinned. All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; and therefore every man needs a Savior, such as Christ is. It is very likely that the heretics, against whose evil doctrines the apostle writes, denied that they had any sin, or needed any Savior. In deed, the Gnostics even denied that Christ suffered: the Aeon, or Divine Being that dwelt in the man Christ Jesus, according to them, left him when he was taken by the Jews; and he, being but a common man, his sufferings and death had neither merit nor efficacy.
We deceive ourselves - By supposing that we have no guilt, no sinfulness, and consequently have no need of the blood of Christ as an atoning sacrifice: this is the most dreadful of all deceptions, as it leaves the soul under all the guilt and pollution of sin, exposed to hell, and utterly unfit for heaven.
The truth is not in us - We have no knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus, the whole of which is founded on this most awful truth - all have sinned, all are guilty, all are unholy; and none can redeem himself. Hence it is as necessary that Jesus Christ should become incarnated, and suffer and die to bring men to God.

[Watchman]

What is your point? It matters not what these other folks have opined...what is YOUR point?

[ewq1938]

What is your point? It matters not what these other folks have opined...what is YOUR point?

My point should have been clear enough:

1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[glad4mercy]

I agree, to a point, but I was emphasizing the "them that obey Him" portion of this Hebrews verse to augment my post that a man CAN live without sin. There are people that are obedient, now on earth. I can't tell if you mean we won't be like Him till He returns, or if you agree with me that we, if obedient, are like Him now, and I will already be like Him when He returns. I was "born again" after I was crucified, buried and "raised again by the glory of the Father" to walk in newness of life, as Romans 6:4 spells out. I was born of a godly seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit. Thanks be to God! Jesus said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." The next thing He said was, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:32, 34) If you still sin, you are not free. Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or he will hold to the one and despise the other." (Matt 6:24) What does that say about "servants of sin"? God sent Jesus to give us new life, and that life is "in" His Son. And Romans 6 says we are baptized "into Christ". Every sin is a choice. Just say NO!

I agree with you that Christians are not to be servants of sin, you will get no argument from me there. Yet I don't know if I agree with you that any of us are sinlessly perfect. Here is my position on the matter.

1. First of all, It is evident that a Christian can commit a sinful act, and it is also evident that a Christian can say no to sin anytime they are tempted. Willful sin arises when we allow the passing pleasure of sin, ( or a pressure to compromise) to draw us away from God, and to me this ammounts to idolatry. 2

. I also agree with you that we can and need to be be Christ-like in this life, because that is what 1 John 2:6 says, yet there is a complete conformity to Christ that we have not yet attained, for the passage in 1 John 3 says " it does not appear what we will be..." So we are like Him in this world, but there is a measure of Christlikeness that has not yet appeared according to this passage. Is this speaking of our bodies being like His or of our being perfected spiritually, or both, I'm not sure.

3. You mention sins of choice, and yes I believe that if we have a heart that is true to God we can say no to each and every temptation. Whether we do or not is another question, but God has given us everything we need that pertains to Life and Godliness.

4. As far as being sinless, I am not sure a person can be absolutely sinless. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we can habitually sin, yet not all sins are deliberate willful sins. When John said, "... and if any man sin we have an advocate", I do not think he meant habitual, deliberate sin, but a sin of stumbling, ignorance, or infirmity.

5. There are not only deliberate sins, but sins can be caused by ignorance, errors in our theology, Spiritual immaturity, moments of weakness, ( I'm not talking about giving in to our sensuality, but do you ever say something in anger that you regret later?) and sins of omission. I agree that we can be free from deliberate sin through the sanctication of our hearts, but to be absolutely sinless, I don't know about that.

6. Absolute perfection would also involve sinless thoughts, sinless attitudes, sinless motives, etc. Who can claim to be perfect in action, thought, attitude, and motive all the time. Edit- add sinless in word to the list. I truly wish I could honestly claim this, but I'm not there yet.

I think that there is often opposite extremes in this issue like everything else. Some teach absolute perfection, not realizing that this would require perfect holiness in every one of our actions, word, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. The other extreme says, "well we can't help but sin" and this is limiting God. I think we need to avoid extremes and simply teach faith in Christ leading to purity, sincerity, love, and holiness in thought, action, word, attitude, and motive. We as Christians strive for this by the power of God that operates in us, as well as the Love of God that is shed abroad in our hearts.

Check out these lyrics.

Pulling from both sides, humility and pride.
One seeks to give, the other to be gratified.
In any case, however, I know I'm in need.
Two appetites in me, which one do I feed?
Running fast as I can after elusive perfection.
No I'm not there yet, but sure I'm in the right direction.
Cause I see me at the end and I look glorified. Justified safe inside,
so I seek to be sanctified

OC Supertones- In Between.

[ewq1938]

1. First of all, It is evident that a Christian can commit a sinful act

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[PJW]

If people don't think that God can make a man clean, and keep Him clean, then they are unaware of God's power to do anything He wants. The Jews looked for a savior, to save them from Rome, but when Jesus came it was to save them from servitude to sin. (I Jo 8:32,34) If you're free from servitude to sin, can't God keep you free? The sinners who say they are in Christ, deny the Lord that bought them. They have decided to do what they want instead of what God wants.
All sin is deliberate, or it is not sin. "Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin..." (Ja 1:14) It takes time for all that to happen. Time to say NO.
If we walk in darkness we cannot say we have no sin. But I walk in the light, as He is in the light, and my old sins have been washed away, and I have been gifted with the Holy Ghost, the mind of Christ. I do not sin. My repentance was real.
As for the writers listed in post #37, they deny that anybody can be sinfree. They must then themselves be servants of sin. (Jo 8:34) Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits,...(Matt 7:15-16) If your prophets brings forth sin, and says "No one can obey God", who are they representing? Not the God that said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)
I beg you consider the end of the ones who won't stop sinning. "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, (yes, the righteous) where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (I Peter 4:18)
Consider this, "Foreasmuch than as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin." I suffered in the flesh when I was crucified with Christ, in baptism.(Romans 6:6)
What glory do you bring to God with your defense of sin? Jesus came to destroy the power of satan, and He did. Thanks be to God! Jesus won, and I'm on His side.
The last conformity to Christ will be the glorified body I get when Jesus returns.
Gladformercy, You say in your third paragraph "yes I believe that if we have a heart that is true to God we can say no to each and every temptation." So, where is the heart of a sinner? It is a heart that is not true to God. Where is your heart?
If a man wants to live for God, Jesus has made a way to do it. See Acts 2:38, and if you obey Peter, God will hear your cry for the Holy Ghost. He will direct your next steps.

[percho]

And being made perfect: Read the context from whence this passage and you will see it refers to when he was raised from the dead by his Father. He became the author of eternal salvation: The firstborn of the dead. It is when shall appear we shall be like him, conformed to his image and it at this moment he is then the firstborn among many.

that they without us should not be made perfect. ---This is speaking of our resurrection--When shall appear.

Heb. 5:4-10 Speaking of Jesus. Hebrews 2:10 Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.----Now before someone brings it up. This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
When this is said in the NT it is always in the context of being said of the resurrected Jesus Christ. At his water baptism it was said after he came out of the water after the dove lit on him. On the Holy Mount the context is Jesus coming in the power of his kingdom.

Perfect is perfect. You are either perfect or you are not.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Is relating back to V35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Paul speaking of himself. Phil 3:11,12 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: He goes on to speak about living unto God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh.

What does is born mean?
What does is flesh mean?

I have always thought only Bill Clinton did not know what is, is.

[glad4mercy]

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Amen to that, brother

[glad4mercy]

If people don't think that God can make a man clean, and keep Him clean, then they are unaware of God's power to do anything He wan

Yes, and I do believe God can make a man clean and keep them clean. Who is this addressed to?

All sin is deliberate, or it is not sin

So you don't believe that careless, yet undeliberate omissions are sin? Think about it.

Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin..."

Not all sin springs from lust. What about sins of the tongue? Is every word you say perfect in holiness and love? What about your thoughts and attitudes? Do you ever think uncharitable thoughts about others? What about your motives? Are you motives completely free from all self seeking and self gratification? Is there any pride in your heart, even the slightest little bit? Do you always put others before yourself? Is there any impurity at all in your words, your thoughts, your attitudes, and your motives? If you are completely sinless and holy in these areas, I commend you. If not, then you need the daily cleansing of the blood.

But I walk in the light,

1 John 1 : 7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Now, is the verb " cleanse" in the aorist tense, the perfect tense, or the present tense in the Greek? Look it up, you might be surprised.

What glory do you bring to God with your defense of sin? Jesus came to destroy the power of satan, and He did. Thanks be to God! Jesus won, and I'm on His side.The last conformity to Christ will be the glorified body I get when Jesus returns.

What sin are you talking about? BTW, are you claiming that you have been sinless since the day you got saved?

Gladformercy, You say in your third paragraph "yes I believe that if we have a heart that is true to God we can say no to each and every temptation." So, where is the heart of a sinner? It is a heart that is not true to God. Where is your heart?

My heart is with God. I am growing in faith and holiness. How about you? Are you growing in faith and holiness, or were you a perfected, mature, entirely sanctified Christian the moment you got saved? Please let me know.

Also, please tell me one New Testament epistle that was written to a church whose members were perfectly sinless and didnt need instruction in righteousness.