Whoever has been born of God does not sin

[Caleb]

I agree, to a point, but I was emphasizing the "them that obey Him" portion of this Hebrews verse to augment my post that a man CAN live without sin. There are people that are obedient, now on earth.
I can't tell if you mean we won't be like Him till He returns, or if you agree with me that we, if obedient, are like Him now, and I will already be like Him when He returns.
I was "born again" after I was crucified, buried and "raised again by the glory of the Father" to walk in newness of life, as Romans 6:4 spells out. I was born of a godly seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit. Thanks be to God!
Jesus said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." The next thing He said was, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:32, 34)
If you still sin, you are not free. Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or he will hold to the one and despise the other." (Matt 6:24) What does that say about "servants of sin"?
God sent Jesus to give us new life, and that life is "in" His Son. And Romans 6 says we are baptized "into Christ".
Every sin is a choice. Just say NO!

Why would James say that if anyone is sick, let him call for the Elders of the Church and confess your sins to one another?

I don't recall him says 'and if anyone has sinned' let them confess their sins to one another.

[PJW]

You make it sound like Jesus wasn't perfect till He was raised from the dead. Didn't Jesus live a perfect life in order to be the perfect sacrifice? And again, my intent in using Hebrews 5:9 was to show that we must be obedient to receive eternal salvation.
"and that which IS BORN of the Spirit is spirit." (Jo 3:6) I have been reborn, the old man was crucified with Christ. "that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Ro 6:6)
Hebrews 11:40. Are you saying that you are one of the "without us" folks, that should not be made perfect?
You quote Paul in Philippians, "If by any means I might ATTAIN UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD." "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for THE PRIZE of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. LET US THEREFORE, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT, be thus minded:..." (Phil 3: The prize is announced in both verse 11,"the resurrection of the dead", and in verse 21, where Paul details what he waits for. "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fasioned like unto His glorious body,..."
We do God's work here with a less than perfect body, (at least mine isn't), but He has given me everything that pertains unto life and GODLINESS. (II Peter 1:3)
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Gal 5:23-25) I walk in the Spirit, thanks be to God.
Did Jesus come here to only save the animals slain to absolve sin? No. He came so we could live a life that gives Him glory, a life the Jews wouldn't/couldn't follow. Jesus came so we could be re-born of a Godly seed, as spiritual men: ones that cannot bring forth evil fruit.(Matt 7:18)

[PJW]

Sorry Gladformercy, gotta eat.
Back at 6:40

[PJW]

Dear Glad4mercy,
Thanks for your patience, as I couldn't find this thread. I had to find your profile and your latest post. So hear goes.
The sin I referenced were from ewg1938 in post 38. They are the ones that "folks" have to be forgiven for, over and over.
Careless is deliberate. Drink, drive, wreck. The drinkers sin, and that's even if he doesn't also kill someone.
All sin does spring from the lust, or James wouldn't have written, "But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived it bringeth forth sin:...(Ja 1:14-15)
My motives and thoughts are pure. What can I gain from hurting someone else? God has promised me eternal life. I WILL NOT GIVE THAT AWAY.
The cleansing from sin in John's first letter happened once at baptism when His blood washed me while on the cross. I was crucified with Him , buried with Him, and raised from the dead with Him to walk in newness of life. (Ro 6:4) Reborn of a godly seed. One that cannot bring forth evil fruit. As for the aorist tense, can you find another scripture that also exemplifies your use of this? I see the blood washing everybody that repents, in baptism,weather in year 35, 2012, or 2599. It cleanses humanity in an ongoing act of mercy for all who come to worship Him, and obey Him.
The way you present it makes me think of Hebrews 6:6, where He must suffer again, and again, and again.
I am growing in grace and knowledge every day. (Especially while working my brain in efforts like this forum) I aspire to, "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb 5:14)
However I was sanctified from day one, when I repented and put my old flesh to death. "...And such were some of you: but ye are washed, ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (I Co 6:11)
"If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessal unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the Master's use, and prepared unto every good work." (II Tim 2:21)
"For if the blood of bulls and goats, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Heb 9:13-14)
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Heb 10:10)
"For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. (Heb 10:14) There is also Heb 10:29, and Jude 1:1 to show that the repentant are saqnctified NOW. Praise be to God!
You (?) asked if any churches were written to that had no sinful people, so I ask you (?) how many churches were there? Not every church received there own letter, or I suppose there may have been fifty epistles. Those not in Christ got special attention, at least by the compilers of the bible.
This is a little off topic, but remember, "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: for we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. (Eph 5:29-30) There is no sin in Jesus' body the church.
To Caleb, In Galations 6:1, the SPIRITUAL brethren are urged to restore an overtaken in a fault man, because the faulted one is not in the Spirit. In James 5:16, we are told "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." There were some righteous men, then, and there are still.
Somehow my 47th and my 48th posts were inverted, and post45 and 46 were inserted before my 47th, though they came after mine, so they don't seem to go in order.

[glad4mercy]

Hi PJW. The tense used for cleanses in 1 John 1:7 is in the present tense. It is not that Jesus had to die over and over again, it is that His blood that was shed once and for all is sufficient to cover all sin. This is in conjunction with His present ministry as our High Priest. This does not create a license to sin, for to continue to sin willfully is basically showing contempt for Christ's blood, and counting it a profane thing. 1 John 1:7,1:9, and 2:1-3 are not safety nets for people who want to trifle with sin, they are there for people who stumbled but want to repent and be restored. The conditions for forgiveness is true repentance and true faith.

As I said, sin is not only the bad things we do, but the failure to do all that we should. A good example is the Church at Ephesus in Revelation. They were doing all the right things, they were teaching the right doctrine, they were orthodox and had a multitude of good works. Yet they had left their first love, and Jesus told them to repent. So we can appear to be doing all the right things and yet have sin in our heart.

[PJW]

DearGlad4mercy,
You write, "The conditions for forgiveness is true repentance and true faith.
If a man's repentance was true, he wouldn't need to ever repent again, so by needing to repent many times, he manifests a false repentance and a false faith.
There are true Christians who repent once.

[VerticalReality]

DearGlad4mercy,
You write, "The conditions for forgiveness is true repentance and true faith.
If a man's repentance was true, he wouldn't need to ever repent again, so by needing to repent many times, he manifests a false repentance and a false faith.
There are true Christians who repent once.

Considering that Jesus is speaking of His people filling His church in Revelation 2 and 3, I don't see how the above could be accurate. Jesus specifically refers to those people in those churches as if they are His people, yet He also specifically instructs them to repent on more than one occasion. In order to argue what you do above, you would have to show that the professing believers filling those churches in Revelation 2 and 3 really aren't true Christians.

[glad4mercy]

DearGlad4mercy,
You write, "The conditions for forgiveness is true repentance and true faith.
If a man's repentance was true, he wouldn't need to ever repent again, so by needing to repent many times, he manifests a false repentance and a false faith.
There are true Christians who repent once.

So are you saying a person that is truly converted will never again even commit one act of sin? Because that is what your statement leads to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning sin. I'm just saying that salvation does not make us perfect instantly. There is a growth in obedience and holiness. Though the obedience and holiness is there from the beginning, there is a growth in holiness.

I am not implying this about you, PJW, but sometimes when Christians consider themselves absolutely perfect, it leads to spiritual pride and sometimes it even leads to an attitude similar to the elder brother in the parable of the Prodigal son. Additionally, a Christian should never sin, but sometimes they do. It is not the way it's supposed to be, it doesnt need to be that way, but it happens. The Bible demonstrates this fact again and again. 1 John 1:9 is there to help those who may stumble. It is not a licence or fire insurance for those who play and meddle with sin, but it is there for sincere Christians who may have lost a battle, but have not lost the war. Some of us run hard, and stumble, and get up and start running again, the key is not to stay fallen. Some of us run with a limp, but we run as hard as we can, and in time God will heal the spiritual limp. These truths are not merely evident from experience, they are documented in the Bible. The key is we need to lay aside the sin and every weight and run with patience the race that is set before us.

The proof of conversion is not absolute perfection, it is enduring faith that eventually leads to perfection. If you feel that you've attained spiritual perfection, then by all means walk according to what you have attained, but also realize that there are weaker brethren whom we must encourage, strengthen, and sometimes even come beside and help them get back up. Doesnt the Bible clearly teach this?

[glad4mercy]

There are true Christians who repent once.

Actually, I do not deny that there are people who get saved and stay faithful to God from beginning to end. Yet there are others that do stumble, and need to be restored. We must be prepared to help the children who may be overtaken in a fault and restore them in the Spirit of meekness as the Scripture says.

This is why John said, "I write these things so that you do not sin". God's will is for our sanctification, and for each of us to possess our vessels in honor. Yet John also said, "if any man sin, we have an advocate..." , knowing that some believers would stumble and need to be restored. Now the promises in 1 John 2:1-3 are not there for those who turn God's Grace into a license to sin, they are there for those who sincerely love God, but find an area in their life that needs to be perfected.

We are like a lump of clay that God is pounding, and shaping, and molding into the image of Christ, and I have found that that does not happen overnight, ( although I once thought it did). So we need to be progressing in holiness and not drawing back, yet there is a progressive sanctification that leads to Christian maturity. There is an initial sanctification which is complete, ( we are fully set apart to God at conversion), yet there is also a progressive sanctification in which we work out what God has worked in.

When John said "whosoever is born of God sinneth not", the eth at the end indicates that it is a present, linear tense, meaning that it is referring to a practice of sin. "Whosoever is born of God does not practice sin, for God's seed remains in Him and He cannot practice sin because He is born of God". The word "practice" is not there in the Greek, but it is implied by the present linear tense, just as when 1 John 1:7 says "...the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin", the word cleanses is also in the perfect linear tense and it means that the blood continually keeps us clean. Remember, Jesus said, "He that is bathed needs not to wash save his feet, but is clean every whit." So there is a sense in which we are washed once and for all and there is a sense in which we are daily cleansed. See below for explanation of present linear tense in Greek from http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm


The Present Tense The present tense can either be continuous/ongoing or undefined. The continuous present is usually translated as "I am loosing" while the undefined is best translated as "I loosen." When the present is used with the indicative mood it denotes present time.

Linear:

action that is in the progress of occuring

Linear is represented by _______________.

Aorist is punctiliar.

Punctiliar:

action that relates to a specific point in time

Linear is represented by a line _________________ while punctiliar is represented by a period. Linear represents continuos action, punctiliar represents an action in a point of time.

Go to a good interlinear Bible website that includes tenses, and study the tenses in 1 John 1-2 and you might make some surprising discoveries. There are plenty of good interlinear study Bibles available for free on the internet. Blue Letter Bible.com is one. You can click on the word and it gives you a definition, then you can click on the number beside it, ( for verbs) and it will tell you what tense and mood it is in, and describe what the tense and mood indicates.




God Bless

[PJW]

Dear Glad4mercy,
In post 53, you say, "The proof of conversion is not absolute perfection", so what where you converted from?
I was converted from a sinning hater of God to an obedient son. You infer that you are a sinning non-hater of God(?), continually in need of a new covering of blood. Godliness doesn't include a "car-wash" walk with God. Sin is of the flesh. I have undergone the circumcision done without hands. (Col 2:11) Sinners manifest that they have not.
If you love and dis-obey Him, aren't you being "double-minded"?

[glad4mercy]

Dear Glad4mercy,
In post 53, you say, "The proof of conversion is not absolute perfection", so what where you converted from?
I was converted from a sinning hater of God to an obedient son. You infer that you are a sinning non-hater of God(?), continually in need of a new covering of blood. Godliness doesn't include a "car-wash" walk with God. Sin is of the flesh. I have undergone the circumcision done without hands. (Col 2:11) Sinners manifest that they have not.
If you love and dis-obey Him, aren't you being "double-minded"?

OK PJW. If you think that you never sin, and have not committed even one single act of sin since the day that you were converted, I won't try to argue with you on that. It's not for me to make accusations. BTW, I never said I was walking in disobedience.

[mailmandan]

DearGlad4mercy,
You write, "The conditions for forgiveness is true repentance and true faith.
If a man's repentance was true, he wouldn't need to ever repent again, so by needing to repent many times, he manifests a false repentance and a false faith.
There are true Christians who repent once.

In regards to receiving salvation, I believe that we repent "change our mind" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and then place our faith in Christ for salvation only once. I don't believe that we repent and believe the gospel more than once and become regenerated more than once. The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind.

In Revelation 2:4-5, Jesus tells the church as Ephesus, "I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent." I don't believe that Jesus was telling the church that they needed to repent in order to become saved all over again, but to prevent judgment that would bring an end to the local church in Ephesus (remove your lampstand). Not all repentance pertains to placing our faith in Christ for salvation and becoming saved.

In Luke 17:3,4 we read, Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him." In context, repentance here is in regards to a brother sinning against another brother, not a change of mind that results in placing our faith in Christ for salvation and becoming saved.

In Jonah 3:10 we read, And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Of course, God did not repent and place His faith in Christ for salvation. God repented of the evil or relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon the people of Ninevah.

Again in Exodus 32:14 the Bible says, "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

[episkopos]

In regards to receiving salvation, I believe that we repent "change our mind" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and then place our faith in Christ for salvation only once. I don't believe that we repent and believe the gospel more than once and become regenerated more than once. The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind.

In Revelation 2:4-5, Jesus tells the church as Ephesus, "I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent." I don't believe that Jesus was telling the church that they needed to repent in order to become saved all over again, but to prevent judgment that would bring an end to the local church in Ephesus (remove your lampstand). Not all repentance pertains to placing our faith in Christ for salvation and becoming saved.

In Luke 17:3,4 we read, Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him." In context, repentance here is in regards to a brother sinning against another brother, not a change of mind that results in placing our faith in Christ for salvation and becoming saved.

In Jonah 3:10 we read, And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Of course, God did not repent and place His faith in Christ for salvation. God repented of the evil or relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon the people of Ninevah.

Again in Exodus 32:14 the Bible says, "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

We cannot justify ourselves for what we have done...or are doing.

[glad4mercy]

Sin is of the flesh

2 Corinthians 7:1- 1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, (B) let us cleanse ourselves from all (A)filthiness of the flesh and spirit, (C) perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

A. There are sins of the flesh, and there are also sins of the spirit.
B. God cleanses us from sin, but there is a sense in which we must cleanse ourselves.
C. We are exhorted to perfect ( perfect here is a verb, not an adjective) holiness.
Why would we be exhorted to perfect (verb not adjective) holiness, if we were already perfected the moment we got saved.

What does Paul mean let us cleanse ourselves from filthiness of the flesh and the spirit?

a. Putting off the old man and putting on the new. ( Ephesians 4:22-24)
b. Working out what God has worked in. ( Philippians 2:12-13)
c. Walking in the Spirit, not in the flesh. ( Romans 8:1)
d. Denying ungodliness and choosing righteousness, by the Grace of God. ( Titus 2:12)

Now these are not daily automatics, we must daily do these things, just as we must daily take up our cross and follow Jesus. Additionally we must not only put off the sins of the flesh, we must also put off the sins of the spirit, and we must allow holiness to be perfected.

Originally Posted by episkoposWe cannot justify ourselves for what we have done...or are doing.

Confession of sins to God as described in 1 John 1:9 is not justifying ourselves, it is omologeo, which means "to say the same thing" . When we confess our sins, we agree with God on the sinfullness of our sins. Now true confession involves a "change of position and direction from sin to God, and in true confession a forsaking of sin is necessary. ( 2 Chronicles 7:14). This is what I meant by repentance. Not repentance in the sense of turning to God to be saved again, but repentance in the sense that Jesus meant in Revelation 2:5 when speaking to the church at Ephesus

So when a Christian has stumbled in sin, ( as John describes in First John 2: 1-3), there is a need for both confession and repentance, ( the type of repentance spoken of in Revelation 2:5) True confession always involves true repentance, it is not merely mouthing words.

Therefore, confession of sin is not the same as seeking to justify what we do, it is seeking to be justified by what Christ has done. Additionally, I am glad you chose the words "what we have done", because confession of sin is not seeking to be justified of what we intend to keep doing, but it is seeking for God to forgive us for what we have done in the past and by His Grace intend to stop doing. The tense for "sin" in 1 John 2:1, ( ...and if any man sin...) is aorist, not present, so it is not speaking of sin that one intends to continue to do, (ie I'll just keep sinning and God will keep forgiving me ) This is antinomianism and is the error that John was actually combatting). The confession of sin that leads to forgiveness is sincere, repentant confession.

[RollTide21]

After we receive Christ, there is no "re-forgiveness" of sin. Our sins are forgiven. If we find ourselves getting caught in sin and want to become reconciled with the Lord, we just need to re-submit ourselves to Him. It's not about repenting and getting forgiveness. It's about re-establishing our Walk with Him.