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Thread: REv 6-21, sequential or parallel fulfillment

  1. #1
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    REv 6-21, sequential or parallel fulfillment

    Revelation 8:1-2

    And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

    Revelation 15:1-2

    And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God....

    Revelation 15:5-8
    And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

    I look at these scriptures, and many more within the prophetic book of Revelation, and I have to ask a question. How can anyone NOT see these prophecies as sequential?

    With the seals, we see that the seven angels that have the seven trumpets don't even get the trumpets until AFTER the seventh seal is broken.

    With the Vials of God's wrath, we see in chapter 15 that the seven angels having the vials of the Lord's wrath don't even get the vials until the time when the Believers are being killed during the Great Tribulation. It is during that time when the Lord goes into His Temple in heaven and first creates the vials of His wrath and then distributing them to the angels.

    Yet, I have seen people say, "the seven seals, trumpets, and vials are to be fulfilled parallel to each other". And there are premils and amils who believe in this doctrine I call the "Seven Seals".

    I see sequence, and I am asking the question, How can you, seven seal doctrine holder, see it any differently?

  2. #2
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    I have posted this before, but thought I would post it again.




    The seals, trumpets and bowls are chronological, the book of Rev. is chronological too, but with ch. breaks to give more detail of events that will happen during the time period he already described.

    Ch. 1 - Introduction to Revelation
    Ch.'s 2 & 3 - Warnings to the churches
    Ch.'s 4 & 5 - Into to the seals
    Ch. 6 - The seals
    Ch. 7 - Intro to the trumpets
    Ch.'s 8 & 9 - Description of the trumpet judgments
    Ch. 10 - Conclusion to seals & trumpets
    Ch.'s 11, 12, 13, 14 - (Break in the chronological events to give more detailed info) Description of events that occur during the seals & trumpets
    Ch. 15 - Intro to the bowl judgments
    Ch. 16 - Bowl judgments
    Ch.'s 17 & 18 - (Break in the chronological events to give additional info)
    Description of the religious and political Babylon
    Ch. 19 - Armageddon
    Ch. 20 - Millennium
    Ch. 21 - New heavens & earth, New Jerusalem described
    Ch. 22 Epilogue

    The trumpets and/or bowls can not overlap or happen at the same time as the seals because of Rev. 7:3! This gives even more proof to the judgments being chronological. First the 7 seals, THEN the 7 trumpets, THEN the 7 bowls.

    Rev. 7:3 "...saying 'Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads."

    The sealing happens after the opening of the 6th seal, but before the 7th.
    The 1st trumpet burns up 1/3 of the grass and trees
    The 2nd trumpet turns 1/3 of the sea to blood and 1/3 of the creatures die and ships destroyed
    The 3rd trumpet makes 1/3 of the freshwater bitter
    The 2nd bowl is sea becoming blood
    The 3rd bowl turns the freshwater to blood

    If the trumpets and bowls overlapped the seals, that would make Rev. 7:3 impossible because it says for the angels to wait and NOT harm the earth, sea or trees until the sealing of the 144,000. It can't be happing at the same time when the sealing has to precede it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by third hero
    Yet, I have seen people say, "the seven seals, trumpets, and vials are to be fulfilled parallel to each other". And there are premils and amils who believe in this doctrine I call the "Seven Seals".
    No, no. Not EXACTLY parallel. Not sequential either.

    One of the difficulties of the book of Revelation is that it is assumed (wrongly) that the chapters are consecutive. This is not strictly so. The visions overlap in a pattern of sevens. For example, the trumpets do not follow after the seventh seal. The trumpets ARE the seventh seal.

    Likewise, the bowls do not follow after the seventh trumpet. The bowls ARE the seventh trumpet.

    This is difficult to explain so here is a diagram I put together to explain it visually. Hope it helps.

    Cyber

    Diagram showing Revelation sequence
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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    I also think that the trumpets come after the seals, but I've been pondering whether the trumpet judgements and vial judgements are the same or not. I started a topic about it a while ago and to me there are several reasons which support the assumption that they indeed can be the same.

    As I understand it, the meaning of God's wrath is to clean the earth and claim leadership. From Revelation 11, it seems to me that because of the trumpet judgements that has been accomplished:

    16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    I believe verse 18 points to the armageddon and the 2nd coming. After this, it's difficult to me to place the vial judgements somewhere.

    A second reason, I believe God does certain things certain way. In chapter 8, before the first trumpet, an angel with a censer was given incense and the smoke ascended before God out of the angel's hand. I think it would be logical to assume that this would be the order of the service before the first vial, but that isn't the case. Instead, the verse says:

    8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

    Why is the order different? That doesn't make sense to me, unless it should be read: And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God [by an angel]. Why would God just puff smoke in the temple, I can't think of a rational reason for that, unless the 2 judgements are the same and the point is to tell the same story from 2 a little bit different perspectives.

    Third reason, the target of these judgements is the same, only the quantities are different. If one of the visions concentrates on a distinct area and the other to the whole world, it could explain the differences.

    Other than that, I haven't found any obvious conflicts why they couldn't be the same judgements and to me there seems to be more support than contradictions for this.

  5. #5
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    I posted my outline of Revelation here. I agree with Cyberseeker that the seven bowls are a closer look at the seventh trumpet, but I also agree with third hero that the seventh seal can not be the seven trumpets.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    No, no. Not EXACTLY parallel. Not sequential either.

    One of the difficulties of the book of Revelation is that it is assumed (wrongly) that the chapters are consecutive. This is not strictly so. The visions overlap in a pattern of sevens. For example, the trumpets do not follow after the seventh seal. The trumpets ARE the seventh seal.

    Likewise, the bowls do not follow after the seventh trumpet. The bowls ARE the seventh trumpet.

    This is difficult to explain so here is a diagram I put together to explain it visually. Hope it helps.

    Cyber

    Diagram showing Revelation sequence
    I agree mostly with this conclusion that both you, Cyber, and Truthinlove, have explained.

    I was writing to someone about the purpose of the seven trumpets by comparing them to the trumpet blasts during the seige at Jericho, and I found the very same parallel that you guys have highlighted to.

    After Revelation 11:13, the seventh trumpet is blown. Like the last trumpet at the seige of Jericho, when the last trumpet ends, the purpose of the blowing of the trumpets are fulfilled. For Jericho, it was the destruction of the walls, and then the city thereafter. For Revelation, however, it is the judgment of God against the world, including the return of the Lord and the defeat and judgment of the Beast and his kingdom. (Revelation 16:1-20:6)

    Now originally, I would have disagreed when I read that someone stated that the seventh trumpet is the last one, meaning that when that trumpet sounds, the Lord returns. After explaining the purpose of the trumpets to someone else, I have realized that I actually agree with all of you that previously claimed that the seventh trumpet heralds the return of the Lord. The Key is that the the parallel between the seven trumpets in Revelation and the seven days of seige against Jericho. The last trumpet was not only the loudest, but the longest. In this case, the seventh trumpeter will be blowing his instrument for 3.5 years. Now that's a long time.

    But I digressed.

    I have seen more and more people in other forums and chatrooms try to explain how the seven seals, trumpets, and vials are fulfilled in parallel to each other, when the scriptures that I had posted in the OP prove the exact opposite. It is nice to see that I am not alone here in my belief that the prophecies themselves are fulfilled in sequence.

    I would also have to agree that there are chapters in Revelation that are breaks in the sequence, but the breaks are there in place to explain what is either happening (chapter 13 for example), and what is about to happen, (chapter 14). They give more clarity to the prophecies that are being put into place (like chapter 17 bringing up the riddle of the Beast as a means of us identifying who he will be).

    For example, chapter 12, especially verses 13-17 usher in the Great Tribulation. But chapter 13 gives us not only the key characters of our enemies, but also gives us instructions that will give us all that we need to survive the ordeal without losing our salvation.

    This is why I say that the prophecies contained in Revelation are sequential, even if the chapters are more fuzzy in their order. (for instance, chapter 17 explaining who the Beast in chapter 13 is... wouldn't it be better for it to be placed in chapter 14... but then again, maybe not, since the final destruction of Babylon is first mentioned there... oh my head hurts). See, that was easy

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    Quote Originally Posted by third hero
    ... oh my head hurts)
    Its called 'Endtimers Syndrome' and its your own fault for wasting so much time in Revelation.


    From someone who knows
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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    Here's why I don't believe the seven bowl judgements are the seventh trumpet:

    In chapter nine, after the 5th trumpet it is said that the first woe is past and there are two more left. After the 6th trumpet the second woe is past, so it's reasonable to presume that the 5th trumpet represents the first woe, and 6th trumpet represents the second woe.

    Think of having your finger being hit with a hammer and crying ouch! afterwards. The 5th trumpet and first woe and 6th trumpet and second woe share the same logic, a single punishment, a single woe.

    If you place the 7 bowls in the 7th trumpet, this logic doesn't apply any more. In this case it would be more reasonable to call the 7th trumpet the third woes.

    In Rev. 11 the nature of the 7th plague is revealed, an earthquake and a great hail (2 elements in a single punishment.) Nothing about the effects of the seven bowls is said here. (11:19)

    Also, after the 6th trumpet, it says:

    14The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.


    What does soon mean here? If one is to presume it means the time between the woes, the seven bowls would have to take place rapidly one after another, which doesn't seem very likely in my opinion.

  9. #9
    Partaker of Christ Guest
    Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

    Question:
    Is it possible that the seals were open in random order?
    John said: one of the seals.
    And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals.

    He does not say the first seal first.

    If so, could the seventh seal, be something like 'the fourth or fifth' seal in true sequence.

    Just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
    Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

    Question:
    Is it possible that the seals were open in random order?
    John said: one of the seals.
    And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals.

    He does not say the first seal first.

    If so, could the seventh seal, be something like 'the fourth or fifth' seal in true sequence.

    Just a thought.
    The key to understanding that an order is established is verse 3. Take a look.

    Revelation 6:3

    And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

    The fact that the second seal denotes a sequence, that leads me to conclude that the "one of the seals" that the Lord broke in verse 1 has to be the first. Besides, each seal has somethnig that is attached to it, including the first one. The seventh one can not open until after all six were opened first, since the trumpeters can not be given their trumpets until the seventh seal is broken.

    Now for forum lurker's query.

    I believe that the final woe that the world has to experience that is connected to the seventh trumpet is th Great Tribulation itself. Now I have come to this conclusion by means of Matthew 24:29-31, which states clearly that "Immediately" after the tribulation of those days the Lord returns.

    Now maybe I have not clarified my position, but here's what I believe concerning the seventh trumpet and the return of the Lord.

    I have always believed that the last trumpet brings forth the Great Tribulation, and the return of the Lord comes right after that.

    I have always believed that the trumpet that accompanies the Lord when He returns is different than the seventh trumpet, since the vials of God's wrath, according to Revelation 16, happens in parallel to the Lord's return. (Notice verse 15 in the midst of all of the vials being poured onto the Earth, affecting those who have the Mark of the Beast on their hands and forehead. Verse 15 clearly states that the Lord is coming as a thief, which causes me to believe that this is the exact moment of the Lord's return, which mirrors the prophecy in chapter 14:13-20). Now that's a mouthful!

    Now, since my discussion in the other thread concerning the seven trumpets, I have realized that the seventh trumpet holds an even greater significance. Since I believe that the Seventh Trumpet of Woe blows throughout the duration of the Great Tribulation, and also at least six vials are poured onto the earth before the Lord comes and retrieves us, I am willing to believe that the seventh trumpet wil continue to blow until the final vial is about to be poured. It stops when the Beast attempts to gather the forces of the Earth against God, since at the very same time, the Lord is in the air, gathering us to Himself.

    So that is why I am willing to believe that at least six of the seven vials of God's wrath are included in the blowing of the seventh trumpet, especially considering the fact that the earth itself is not harmed until the Last Vial is poured out, which brings with it a massive earthquake that levels every city on the earth except for two, Babylon and Jerusalem. (I am including verses from Zechariah 14 when making that statement). So the earth doesn't fully recieve the wrath of God until after the sixth vial is poured out.

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