Will we go straight to heaven after death? (moved from BC)

[Alyssa S]

The cure for death is resurrection.

Hi Bick!

Thanks for your post!

When did you change your mind on this doctrine? I noticed back in August that you posted on a "Heaven" thread.

I have many questions that wonderful Christians who believe in "heaven-going" cannot answer. But there are questions for the other side as well that can't seem to be answered. It leaves me puzzled.

One thing I know. There is not one single verse in the bible that says we go to heaven when we die. But yet, I cannot get around Paul's being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord... or "to live is Christ, to die is gain...." or when he was divided over wanting to remain with his friends or depart and be with the Lord.

On the other hand, there are numerous, numerous verses throughout the Old Testament and even in the New that *appear* to contradict these (couple of verses) used to support heaven-going.

As I have already posted, David and Job knew they would go to the grave and that the dead know nothing at all, nor can they praise the Lord from there. Their whole hope was the Resurrection of the Dead. Job is clear that he will see his Savior when his Savior stands on the EARTH (not in heaven) on the Last Day.

Job 19:25
"I know my Redeemer lives, and that in the end HE WILL STAND UPON THE EARTH. And after my skin as been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see Him with my own eyes..."

Apostle Paul even was on trial for the defense of the Resurrection!

From what I have studied, the spirit is the breath of life... and as you said, the soul is the mind will and emotions. I do not see how these two are the same thing... and YET...there are times when they DO represent the same thing. (Interesting).

When Stephen died, he committed his spirit (breath of life) to the Lord. Was this only his spirit or was it also his soul? And if it was both, then how do we explain Job and David's verses about how the dead cannot praise the Lord?

Also, I have many questions... but these will suffice for now.

1.) We hear there will be "no more tears in heaven," and yet, the first time we see mention of this is in Revelation when the New Jerusalem is brought to earth FROM heaven.

a.) So heaven-goers, will there be no more tears in heaven when you die? And if so, where is this verse? Because here it shows this won't happen until after the Resurrection in the Kingdom of Heaven.

2.) We talk about how glorious it will be when we get to heaven and how perfect everything will be in the presence of the Lord, and yet, somehow we will still be longing for "something more"....as in our new bodies and our new home.

a.) How could we possibly long for anything more if we are in the "presence of the Lord??" This never made any sense to me at all.

3.) If we are in heaven after we die, we are told we are prasing the Lord, but yet Job and David say this isn't so. If we are praising him, can we see him?

a.) The references for WHEN we will SEE the Lord for the first time is on the Last Day (according to Job) and Revelation 22:4 in the New Jerusalem.

4.) Last point, though I have many others... I hear preachers say all the time that we will receive our reward when we die and go to heaven.

a.) Where is this verse? Because according to Rev 22:12 Christ tells us that he is COMING soon and his reward is WITH him, and he will give to everyone according to what they have done.

There are so many other questions I have that people who believe in heaven-going cannot answer. I would LOVE for someone in this Thread, perhaps a Mod, or anyone to give an answer to these few questions I have.

My mind is not made up either way. But I know to believe in heaven-going or any other doctrine, Scripture has to harmonize and these verses of Paul's that people use to support heaven-going do not line up with all of the many, many other verses that say otherwise.

I do know one thing...My hope is the same as Job's, David's and Paul's...The Resurrection on the Last Day!!

I look forward to the responses.

God bless,
Alyssa

[Alyssa S]

Originally Posted by Butch5
Why, when the teaching that we go to heaven did not enter the church until around 1600. Even the reformers didn't preach that we go to heaven when we die. Here is a quote from Calvin,

I know Calvin opposed Luther's teaching of soul sleep...as he refutted it in Psychopannychia. But it would seem that you are not even speaking of soul sleep, as you have quoted Calvin talking about Paradise vs. heaven. But didn't Calvin believe Paradise and heaven where the same thing?

He was radically opposed to Luther's teaching that the soul was mortal.

Anyhoo.... I think a few on here are under the assumption you are promoting soul sleep, but it would seem that this is NOT what you believe in...since you quoted Calvin, who opposed it. And you said yourself that you weren't promoting soul sleep since you weren't familar with it.

I am curious too, how your thread ended up over here in World Religions??

Your argument is for Paradise at death vs. Heaven at death. Is this correct?

God bless,
Alyssa

[David Taylor]

Butch,
None of those writings conflict with the mainstream protestant view that the spirit of the faithful returns to God at death, and the body enters into rest inside the tomb until the resurrection.

I have no problem agreeing with you that the body rests in the grave awaiting the resurection.

However, if you say that the spirit doesn't go to be in the presence of the Lord, then we have a conflict. Spirit's of those who belong to Christ are His, not the grounds.

When we become one of His, we are to forever be with him, not have thousands of years of separation from Him.

[Alyssa S]

Anyone who believes in heaven-going care to take a shot at Post 46? I have asked these questions on here before and haven't received a reply. The thread has merely been shut down.

I am not promoting any belief, as I am not certain what exactly is to happen at death. I think this is a perplexing and very interesting subject, in which I have gone back and forth on. I know Paul, David and Job's whole HOPE was in the Resurrection. Why wasn't it in going to heaven? Again, why would we hope for anything more if we are in the presence of the Lord when we die?

I would appreciate if someone who knows the Scriptures well enough could answer these questions as well as Post 46.

God bless!
Alyssa

[David Taylor]

Anyone who believes in heaven-going care to take a shot at Post 46? I have asked these questions on here before and haven't received a reply. The thread has merely been shut down.

I am not promoting any belief, as I am not certain what exactly is to happen at death. I think this is a perplexing and very interesting subject, in which I have gone back and forth on. I know Paul, David and Job's whole HOPE was in the Resurrection. Why wasn't it in going to heaven? Again, why would we hope for anything more if we are in the presence of the Lord when we die?

I would appreciate if someone who knows the Scriptures well enough could answer these questions as well as Post 46.

God bless!
Alyssa

My take on this (generally) was that the O.T. didn't reveal awhole lot about going to heaven....it wasn't so much the topic of discussion, nor expounded upon nearly to the level that Christ and the NT writers did later in the NT.

The OT guys did know that being faithful meant they would be forever with the Lord...not in a state of unconscious separation from the Lord.

King David
Psa 23:6 "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever."

He knew that God would both be with him in this life, and forever more....dwelling in the house of the Lord forever isn't being unconscious or alone in the ground for the last 3000 years, is it?

Job
Job 36:7 "He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted."

While Job knew his body would go to the grave awaiting the resurrection; he also knew that the rightoues are also established and exalted forever with Lord....hard to do for 'forever' if one's spirit remains unconscious and trapped alone inside the tomb with one's body for 4000 years like Job's old bones.

Isaiah
Isaiah 26:3 "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee. Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength"

Isaiah expected to be able to trust in the Lord forever, to be kept in peach and His everlasting strength. He didn't know alot about heaven in his day, but Isaiah knew the Lord wouldn't abandon him in the ground for 2800 years...but rather, that the Lord would be Isaiah's strength forever.

Matthew
Matt 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

If Jesus is truly with His people always, then what of Stephen who died 2000 years ago? Has Stephen's spirit been unconscious and alone in the grave for 2000 years, or has he always been with the Lord?

Acts 7:55 "But Stephen, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Stephen was a great example revealed to us in the NT of the spirit going to the Lord's presence at death. As David, to be forever in the house of the Lord, as Job to be established and exalted forever, and Isaiah.

It's just that in the O.T. the topic of being in Heaven wasn't that developed or expounded upon...just like the avenue for getting there, Jesus Christ, wasn't nearly as described and presented as it would later be in the N.T.

Here is another good example given to David. When contemplating his own death, what was David's hope? To be abandoned unconsciouly in the grave for thousands of years? No....hardly.

Psa 73:23 "Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever."

One of the most clear examples from the O.T. that David's hope even though his body was failing and he knew his heart was failing and death was coming near; he would be continually with the Lord and received up into glory in heaven with the Lord forever.

[Pilgrimtozion]

Before I actually answer your questions, Alyssa, I want to point out some passages that undeniably point to a conscious existence after death:

1. In Matthew 17 and Luke, we find the disciples with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Here, Moses and Elijah appear. Clearly, both are conscious and alive - not in some kind of slumber awaiting the final resurrection.
2. Jesus argued that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - and said He was the God of the living, not the dead. Luke 20:38 puts it like this: "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him." Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not dead but alive.
3. In Philippians 1, Paul debates whether it would be better for him to die or to stay alive. He proceeds to say that He would rather be with Christ: "But I am hard-pressed from both {directions,} having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for {that} is very much better;" Obviously, departing means being with Christ, not sleeping or waiting in a place separated from Christ.
4. Hebrews 12:22-23 says this: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of {the} righteous made perfect," How does that fit in with soul sleep? We have come to Mount Zion, where are also the spirits of the righteous made perfect!
5. Luke 16:22 says that Lazarus was carried into Abraham's bosom after he died. Clearly, Lazarus did not fall into some state of soul sleep at death.

This is just a beginning. The point that needs to be established is that soul sleep is unbiblical. Whatever problems we encounter while studying the topic cannot and should not steer us away from the undeniable truth that we go either to be with the Lord or to eternal separation from God when we die. With that mindset, let's have a look at your questions:

1) We hear there will be "no more tears in heaven," and yet, the first time we see mention of this is in Revelation when the New Jerusalem is brought to earth FROM heaven.
Honestly, I do not know if there will be tears in heaven when I die. Whatever the case may be, I know that in the new heavens and new earth, there will be no tears. That is enough for me. I do not see how this affects the discussion concerning soul sleep in any way.

2.) We talk about how glorious it will be when we get to heaven and how perfect everything will be in the presence of the Lord, and yet, somehow we will still be longing for "something more"....as in our new bodies and our new home. How could we possibly long for anything more if we are in the "presence of the Lord??" This never made any sense to me at all.
Even though we are in the presence of God, the final consummation of God's plan has not taken place. While death has been defeated, the final judgment has yet to take place. So yes, we rejoice in the presence of God, but there is still more to come. On top of that, 1 Corinthians 15 sheds light on this question as well. Our mortality will put on immortality when Christ returns - we will receive a new body, an immortal one! I don't know about you, but that is something that thrills me right to the bone! Heaven is great and being with God is fantastic, but I cannot wait until death is dealt the final blow and is no more, and we experience the final consummation in our new bodies in the new heavens and the new earth!

3) If we are in heaven after we die, we are told we are prasing the Lord, but yet Job and David say this isn't so. If we are praising him, can we see him? The references for WHEN we will SEE the Lord for the first time is on the Last Day (according to Job) and Revelation 22:4 in the New Jerusalem.
I do not see any reference in Job that states that the first time we see the Lord is on the Last Day. The only verse that might even remotely suggest that is Job 19:25-26: ""As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;" I don't see any soul sleep there.
Revelation 22:4 says "they will see His face, and His name {will be} on their foreheads." It doesn't say that this will be the first time that they see His face nor does it make any such implication. To claim that based on this verse is isegesis (reading into the Bible).

4) Last point, though I have many others... I hear preachers say all the time that we will receive our reward when we die and go to heaven. Where is this verse? Because according to Rev 22:12 Christ tells us that he is COMING soon and his reward is WITH him, and he will give to everyone according to what they have done.
I do not know of any such Scripture stating that we receive our reward right when we get to heaven. The question is what that reward actually is. If you take 'reward' to mean being with God then I can see how this troubles you. But I encourage you to study the Scriptures and see what the Bible actually says this reward is.

I hope this helps you.
Pilgrimtozion

[David Taylor]

Anyone who believes in heaven-going care to take a shot at Post 46? I have asked these questions on here before and haven't received a reply.

Let's look at your 4 questions.

1.) We hear there will be "no more tears in heaven," and yet, the first time we see mention of this is in Revelation when the New Jerusalem is brought to earth FROM heaven.

a.) So heaven-goers, will there be no more tears in heaven when you die? And if so, where is this verse? Because here it shows this won't happen until after the Resurrection in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Remember heaven is time-less. There is no crying in heaven, regardless of when someone gets there (either at death at the end of this life like Stephen) or at the final gathering at the Resurrection of mankind.

John in Rev 21, was quoting Isaiah:

Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

Other examples of no crying...this time in relation to the Earth. Paul quoted this passage in I Corinthians 15:54...

Isaiah 25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it."

So it really is a relationship of no crying...when one is in the direct presence of the Lord (whether in Heaven or on the Earth, crying and weeping shall cease.) Complete personified joy shall be realized.

2.) We talk about how glorious it will be when we get to heaven and how perfect everything will be in the presence of the Lord, and yet, somehow we will still be longing for "something more"....as in our new bodies and our new home.

a.) How could we possibly long for anything more if we are in the "presence of the Lord??" This never made any sense to me at all.

I would guess because our glorified bodies are the culmination of our design. My take is that the Lord will have designed them i a manner that only once we receive them will we be able to fully enjoy the fullest glory of the Lord. I Corinthians 15 talks the most about our spiritual bodies, and their type and their glory.

I've also heard some people say that since only the phyiscal realm is held by time, and heaven and the Lord are outside of time and not bound by it, that when we die, we immediately participate in the final heavenly destiny...although our dead bodies remain in the grave bound and awaiting the resurrection (like a seed in the ground awaiting its sprouting and a cocoon awaiting its metamorphasis into a butterfy)...but on Heaven's side, time isn't a binding factor, and everything the Lord has for us is immediately realized...that's how Paul was able to say we are already reigning with Him in heavenly places. It's hard to get the mind around these types of concepts.

All we can know for sure, is that for believers, they will never be removed from the presence of the Lord...and that means thousands of years abandoned and unconscious in the ground is not a valid expectation for those who belong to Christ.

3.) If we are in heaven after we die, we are told we are prasing the Lord, but yet Job and David say this isn't so. If we are praising him, can we see him?

a.) The references for WHEN we will SEE the Lord for the first time is on the Last Day (according to Job) and Revelation 22:4 in the New Jerusalem.

Or was Job just saying that would be then next time his rotting flesh and bones would 'see' with those same literal eyes...the Lord?

Job 19:25 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. "

Job is speaking of when his old rotting body would literally see the Lord. In heaven, in spirit form, how do we see? How do we concieve bodiless interaction and presence? Don't know. All I do know is that our hope is to always be with the Lord in His presence, and never to be abandoned to the grave alone and without him.

4.) Last point, though I have many others... I hear preachers say all the time that we will receive our reward when we die and go to heaven.a.) Where is this verse? Because according to Rev 22:12 Christ tells us that he is COMING soon and his reward is WITH him, and he will give to everyone according to what they have done.

My guess again, is that the reward is that we are in Heaven in His presence...not that we are in hell tormented in the flames and anguish.

We know at His return, He will give us immortal, incorruptible bodies fashioned out of our old mortal ones...that is a reward to look for. Even at our earthly life, we have been given many rewards from the Lord wouldn't you agree? They too all preceed the final gift which is the reception of our immortal and incorruptible spirit bodies.

Until that happens, nothing is yet finished....we are still in waiting patterns...but we wait in the presence of our Lord with Him...alway with the Lord...and never abandoned and alone in the ground.

David knew even though his body went to the grave, he would always be in the presence of the Lord:

Psa 16:8 "I have set the LORD always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand."

[Firstfruits]

Oh boy, I'm opening a can of worms, but from the moment our physical body dies will we be in heaven with the Lord? Or will we have to wait until the Resurrection to be there? Are there levels of heaven?

Just a thought, but if we all go to heaven when we die, then who are the dead in Christ that leave the grave to be with the Lord in the air at his return?

Jn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Why are we waiting for Jesus to return to gather the dead in Christ if they are already in Heaven?

Firstfruits

[David Taylor]

Just a thought, but if we all go to heaven when we die, then who are the dead in Christ that leave the grave to be with the Lord in the air at his return?

Jn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Firstfruits

They are our bodies...raised to new life.

Following the example of Jesus Himself.

Jesus:
Died on the cross.
His spirit went immediately to be with the Father in Heaven.
His body was removed and placed in the grave to wait.
His Resurrection Day.
His old body is raised incorruptible, and His spirit and body unit reunited again forevermore.

Us:
We will die (somewhere).
Our spirit will immediately be with the Father in Heaven.
Our body will be placed in the grave to wait.
Our Resurrection Day.
Our old bodies will be raised incorruptible, and our spirit and body unit reunites again forevermore.

Paul explains the process in the most detail here.
I Thess 3:13, 4:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"

So when the Resurrection occurs, both the spirits of those who are in Heaven with Jesus will return with Him, to be united with our risen and glorified bodies; together.

The body and spirit that was separated at physical death, is reunited in a glorified and eternal way at the resurrection to newness of life!

Just as James told us, "For as the body without the spirit is dead".

The body awaits the return of the spirit, to become alive again at the resurrection.

[Firstfruits]

They are our bodies...raised to new life.

Following the example of Jesus Himself.

Jesus:
Died on the cross.
His spirit went immediately to be with the Father in Heaven.
His body was removed and placed in the grave to wait.
His Resurrection Day.
His old body is raised incorruptible, and His spirit and body unit reunited again forevermore.

Us:
We will die (somewhere).
Our spirit will immediately be with the Father in Heaven.
Our body will be placed in the grave to wait.
Our Resurrection Day.
Our old bodies will be raised incorruptible, and our spirit and body unit reunites again forevermore.

Paul explains the process in the most detail here.
I Thess 3:13, 4:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"

So when the Resurrection occurs, both the spirits of those who are in Heaven with Jesus will return with Him, to be united with our risen and glorified bodies; together.

The body and spirit that was separated at physical death, is reunited in a glorified and eternal way at the resurrection to newness of life!

Just as James told us, "For as the body without the spirit is dead".

The body awaits the return of the spirit, to become alive again at the resurrection.

Thanks David,

If we are already in heaven will we not already have our heavenly bodies for us to be there?

1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Cor 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Cor 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Firstfruits

[Alyssa S]

Hey David and Pilgrimtozion!

Thanks a ton for responding.

I am not questioning whether we will be left "alone or abandoned alone in the grave." For if we belong to the Lord, we are ALWAYS in his presence even in the grave... according to Scripture, not me.

Psalm 139:7
Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there."



[quote]

Let's look at your 4 questions.

[/indent]Remember heaven is time-less. There is no crying in heaven, regardless of when someone gets there (either at death at the end of this life like Stephen) or at the final gathering at the Resurrection of mankind.

John in Rev 21, was quoting Isaiah:

Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

Other examples of no crying...this time in relation to the Earth. Paul quoted this passage in I Corinthians 15:54...

Isaiah 25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it."

So it really is a relationship of no crying...when one is in the direct presence of the Lord (whether in Heaven or on the Earth, crying and weeping shall cease.) Complete personified joy shall be realized.

But again, these verses are about the New Jerusalem. No more tears will occur at the coming of the Kingdom from heaven, when the Resurrection occurs. I wonder why we don't have a verse that says there will be no more tears when we die and go to heaven? But instead, it is at the Return of Christ.

All I do know is that our hope is to always be with the Lord in His presence, and never to be abandoned to the grave alone and without him.

Oh, I agree with that. Psalm 139 tells us we cannot flee from his presence, even if we go down into the grave!

My guess again, is that the reward is that we are in Heaven in His presence...not that we are in hell tormented in the flames and anguish.

But then, we are left to guessing. We KNOW from Scripture that our reward is coming from heaven at the Resurrection.

We know at His return, He will give us immortal, incorruptible bodies fashioned out of our old mortal ones...that is a reward to look for. Even at our earthly life, we have been given many rewards from the Lord wouldn't you agree? They too all preceed the final gift which is the reception of our immortal and incorruptible spirit bodies.

Amen! But God is specifically speaking of his very special REWARD that he is bringing TO us FROM heaven.

Until that happens, nothing is yet finished....we are still in waiting patterns...but we wait in the presence of our Lord with Him...alway with the Lord...and never abandoned and alone in the ground.

Agree! Again Psalm 139!!

David knew even though his body went to the grave, he would always be in the presence of the Lord:

Psa 16:8 "I have set the LORD always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand."

Yes, but David also said this:

Psalm 115:17
"It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down into silence;

Psalm 88:10
"Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead raise up and praise you?"

If David knew he would be praising God in heaven, then why would he make these comments? Why did he plead with God, in other verses, to allow him to remain alive so he could praise him? We know God will not abandon us to the grave because he is going to Resurrect us, but David even told us that we cannot flee from his presence, even in the grave.

Psalm 71:2
"you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up."

Psalm 49:15
"But God will redeem my life from the grave"

So what do we make of these verses, which are only a very few out of the many in the bible?

You agree that we have no Scripture that tells us we will see his face while we are in heaven. But Scripture DOES tell us that we will see him AT the Resurrection when he comes back for us and we receive our reward, when he will wipe away every tear.

Psalm 17:15
"And I - in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisified with seeing your likeness."


I firmly believe that the spirit returns to the Lord. I want to be clear on that. I do not believe, according to Scripture, that the spirit stays with the body. Scripture tells us that the spirit is the breath of life. All living things have the spirit/breath of life. Without it, we are all dead. I do not deny that.

There appears in the Greek and Hebrew to be a distinction between spirit and soul. And even Scripture says we are body, soul and spirit. God said in the beginning, "Let US make man in OUR image." Some believe this is the body, soul and spirit.


It is very odd to me, that Jesus will leave heaven (with us) to COME get us and give us our reward. How do we make sense of him leaving WITH us to COME get us?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the verses you have provided, but there are far many others that do not harmonize with those. And that is the problem I have. I have studied this and studied it...Looked at the Greek and Hebrew and studied the Early Church's belief (a little). The pastors I respect the most, believe as you do, the church I go to, believes as you do, and still, their arguments don't seem strong enough. Both sides, either way you look at it, has good arguments.

Things need to harmonize, though. And at this point, I have not found that full harmonization, though I know it is there!

pilgrimtozion
This is just a beginning. The point that needs to be established is that soul sleep is unbiblical. Whatever problems we encounter while studying the topic cannot and should not steer us away from the undeniable truth that we go either to be with the Lord or to eternal separation from God when we die.

I agree that we will never flee from the Lord's presence if we belong to him. The term "soul sleep" is associated with a couple of man-made Religion's that I know very little about, by the way. But I would not go so far as to say that the verses I have just given to you are "unbiblical." Obviously, they are coming straight out of the bible. Is it called "soul sleep?" Is it called "resting in the Lord?" Is it called "Paradise?" Is it called "the intermediate state?" Is it called "Awaiting the Resurrection?" (That would seem most biblical). I don't care much about Religious terms that come out of Seminaries. I am more concerned with what Scripture says. Please... do not take that as an insult in any way. I just want to be clear on where I am coming from.

I am interested in harmonizing the Scriptures.

God bless!
Alyssa

[Alyssa S]

More food for thought!

The spirit (breath of life) returns to the Lord.
The body goes to the grave.

While the body is in the grave, it decays completely. It is now dust, as Scripture said it would be.

If the body is ONLY dust, what significance is there in raising it? We will be given a NEW body, not the body of flesh. So the same body is not being raised.

So "what" is being raised?

Something of significance HAS to be left as a SEED in the ground that God sees as so important that hundreds of verses speak about, that the hope of Job, David, Paul and many others speak about, that Paul defended in Corinth. Why so much emphasis on the Resurrection? If we are in heaven when we die, why is there MORE emphasis on raising the dead? Why are there MORE verses about THAT? Why so very, very little about heaven and absolutely none about going to heaven when we die?

Could it not be that the Lord is bringing with Him our (spirit) breath of life...
To unite it once again with our (soul) mind, will and emotions...
And recreate our (bodies)...
Just as he did when he formed us in the beginning?

This would seem to line up better with all of the verses from both arguments, though I haven't compared them all... (going off of memory.)

There just has to be something significant that is left in the grave to be Resurrected, or there wouldn't be so so so many verses about it.

Still working it all out, though...

God bless,
Alyssa

[David Taylor]

Psalm 115:17
"It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down into silence;

Psalm 88:10
"Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead raise up and praise you?"

If David knew he would be praising God in heaven, then why would he make these comments? Why did he plead with God, in other verses, to allow him to remain alive so he could praise him? We know God will not abandon us to the grave because he is going to Resurrect us, but David even told us that
we cannot flee from his presence, even in the grave.

I'm sure David had alot of questions about how the afterlife operated.
He knew that if he went to the tomb of his dead father Jesse, and watched him for a couple of hours, Jesse's old bones wouldn't get up and praise the Lord...that much he did know.

But David did know that he would aways be with the Lord forever...so his spirit mustn't have been in mind in those verses...only the body.

David knew when his infant son died, that his son couldn't return to him, but he would eventually go to be reunited in the presence with his son at death.

2 Samuel 12:22 "And David said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

Psalm 71:2
"you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up."

Psalm 49:15
"But God will redeem my life from the grave"

So what do we make of these verses, which are only a very few out of the many in the bible?

Where is the material bodies of my two grandmothers? In the grave...awaiting to be brought up and restored back to life at the Resurrection.

Where is the immaterial spirits of my two grandmothers? Absent from their bodies...present with the Lord.

The two verses above are speaking of David's expectation of his dead body being raised....not his spirit being raised from unconsciousness.

You agree that we have no Scripture that tells us we will see his face while we are in heaven. But Scripture DOES tell us that we will see him AT the Resurrection when he comes back for us and we receive our reward, when he will wipe away every tear.

Psalm 17:15
"And I - in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisified with seeing your likeness."

The perhaps since we don't have a body hanging around with us at death, and we are only spiritually in the Lord's presences, we don't have eyes to see Him until we are rejoined and raised with our bodies. That doesn't mean our spirit is inconscious in the ground though. It just means our spirit with the Lord most likely won't see or weep. We really don't know much at all about what Heaven is like other than we can count on it that if we are Jesus' He will never leave us or forsake us...and we won't be left alone in the grave with our dead bodies for hundreds maybe thousands of years awaiting the resurrection.

I firmly believe that the spirit returns to the Lord. I want to be clear on that. I do not believe, according to Scripture, that the spirit stays with the body. Scripture tells us that the spirit is the breath of life. All living things have the spirit/breath of life. Without it, we are all dead. I do not deny that.

There appears in the Greek and Hebrew to be a distinction between spirit and soul. And even Scripture says we are body, soul and spirit. God said in the beginning, "Let US make man in OUR image." Some believe this is the body, soul and spirit.

Actually, what there is, is inconsistency.
Sometimes scripture speaks of soul/spirit as one unit, sometimes as different, sometimes the word soul is used to denote body, sometimes spirit, sometimes both...the inconsistencies make trying to use the words themselves to build doctrine impossible...(although the SDA and JWs try real hard to do this).

What one can only do, is example the entire context of all the bible, and if the bible speaks of conscious existence after death and prior to the resurrection; then we have to accept that premise...and not attempt to counteract it or reject it because of some inconsistent useage of words in a few places based on the greek or hebrew.

Many examples exist in scripture showing us that the dead spirits of people remain conscious, not unconsciously trapped in the coffin with the body.

It is very odd to me, that Jesus will leave heaven (with us) to COME get us and give us our reward. How do we make sense of him leaving WITH us to COME get us?

Simple.
The spirits of those who have died are with Him in Heaven.
Their bodies, along with those who are still living, are on the Earth.

He is returning to the Earth, so we come with him (if we've died), to be reunited with our raised bodies, and all the changed living glorified people.

Jesus' own spirit went to be with the Father in Heaven at His death..it didn't lie unconscious in the tomb with his body. We follow His example.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the verses you have provided, but there are far many others that do not harmonize with those.

Keep listing ones you think are, because I've never found an example where the soul-sleep view is supportable or not discountable when explained in the proper context with the entire pale of scripture.

And that is the problem I have. I have studied this and studied it...Looked at the Greek and Hebrew and studied the Early Church's belief (a little). The pastors I respect the most, believe as you do, the church I go to, believes as you do, and still, their arguments don't seem strong enough. Both sides, either way you look at it, has good arguments.

Things need to harmonize, though. And at this point, I have not found that full harmonization, though I know it is there!

I would think that most verses that are causing you trouble, are referring to the dead material body, not the living spirit that are the true 'us' that will always be with the Lord.

But please, continue to post scriptures. If you want this to be more focused, and to do this without others interjecting and creating rabbit-chases, feel welcomed to start a thread in the Chat-to-Mods forum where we can interchange one-on-one...if you like that as an option. Your choice. At least in that mode, things can't get out of hand, and the thread won't get closed down. With this one being on open forum, and on a topic that is borderline against forum rules to begin with, that could always come into play here.

I agree that we will never flee from the Lord's presence if we belong to him. The term "soul sleep" is associated with a couple of man-made Religion's that I know very little about, by the way. But I would not go so far as to say that the verses I have just given to you are "unbiblical."

No verses are unbiblical...just misunderstood, or in these cases, often misrepresented by said "man-made religions" to the point that they can trip up and cause confusion if not correctly addressed.

Obviously, they are coming straight out of the bible. Is it called "soul sleep?" Is it called "resting in the Lord?" Is it called "Paradise?" Is it called "the intermediate state?" Is it called "Awaiting the Resurrection?" (That would seem most biblical). I don't care much about Religious terms that come out of Seminaries. I am more concerned with what Scripture says. Please... do not take that as an insult in any way. I just want to be clear on where I am coming from.

I am interested in harmonizing the Scriptures.

God bless!
Alyssa

You're taking a great approach to this study...seeking truth, not wanting to push agendas from questionable denominational doctrines. We really appreciate it.

[David Taylor]

More food for thought!

The spirit (breath of life) returns to the Lord.
The body goes to the grave.

While the body is in the grave, it decays completely. It is now dust, as Scripture said it would be.

If the body is ONLY dust, what significance is there in raising it? We will be given a NEW body, not the body of flesh. So the same body is not being raised.

So "what" is being raised?

Sure it is, and that's the beauty of it.
We are raised from our old bodies, even in dust....Just like Jesus was raised from his old, bloodened, scarred, mistreated body!

Again, re-read 1 Cor 15...the 26-50 verses I think, which talk about the seed applications.

A seed detached from its lifegiving plant, dies, is planted in the ground, and rots. The amazing metamorphisis into a living, growing, colorful and vibrant star-gazer lilly came from that old dead rotten seed!

It wasn't raised back to a old dried up dead seed, but something much more...that grew out of that old original seed.

Our glorified resurrection bodies, just like Jesus' own, will follow the same pattern.

A beautiful, elegant, and whispy orange butterfly cannot come from an empty cocoon....but rather from the dead, rotting, corpse of it's prior self
...the ugly caterpillar.

The new body is made from the old body, along with all kinds of stuff the Lord will add into the mix that we have no idea of comprehending.

How was Jesus own body metemorphasized? We don't know the details, we just know we will follow his path and example. That example is very important don't you think?

Something of significance HAS to be left as a SEED in the ground that God sees as so important that hundreds of verses speak about, that the hope of Job, David, Paul and many others speak about, that Paul defended in Corinth. Why so much emphasis on the Resurrection? If we are in heaven when we die, why is there MORE emphasis on raising the dead? Why are there MORE verses about THAT? Why so very, very little about heaven and absolutely none about going to heaven when we die?

Could a caterpillar have been happy to stay a caterpillar?
Could a caterpillar have had any idea that he would become a butterfly?

God's plan for us in resurrection is to complete all things..our final glorification and completion of our beauty and design lies there...not anything or any state prior to that.

You say there are absolutely no verses about going to heaven when we die...yet you've been shown alot by others in this thread.

Not sure how to help you if you want to blanketly not accept them.

Could it not be that the Lord is bringing with Him our (spirit) breath of life...
To unite it once again with our (soul) mind, will and emotions...
And recreate our (bodies)...
Just as he did when he formed us in the beginning?

Except that many verses show the dead being conscious and aware apart from their dead bodies, after death. So either there must be confusion on where/how the terms for soul/spirit are being used.

Since there are examples of people after death being aware and conscious apart from their body...call it what you want..their soul, their spirit, their breath...it doesn't matter the label...it just matters that it occurs; and is scripturally documented.

And for the believer, that place is with the Lord, who is in Heaven as Stephen saw. For the unbeliever, it is in hell in the conscoiusly tormented fames and agony.

This would seem to line up better with all of the verses from both arguments, though I haven't compared them all... (going off of memory.)

There just has to be something significant that is left in the grave to be Resurrected, or there wouldn't be so so so many verses about it.

Still working it all out, though...

God bless,
Alyssa

Without our bodies, we will not resurrection into our final, glorified bodies...because as Paul taught, they are apart of the recipe for it.

That's all...doesn't mean unconsciousness or not being with the Lord at death.(spiritually..not bodily).

[My heart's Desire]

First let's look at what Paul said,

2 Corinthians 5:8 ( KJV ) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

He didn't say to absent from the body "is" to be present with the Lord,
He said, I am willing rather to be absent from the body "and" be present with the Lord.

Where he is willing to be makes no difference to what he said. If he is in the body he is absent from the Lord and if he is absent from the Lord he is still in the body.
In Phil. 1:21-23 Paul in Prison continues with this theme.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
But I am hard pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.