Originally Posted by Bick
Thanks for your post!
When did you change your mind on this doctrine? I noticed back in August that you posted on a "Heaven" thread.
I have many questions that wonderful Christians who believe in "heaven-going" cannot answer. But there are questions for the other side as well that can't seem to be answered. It leaves me puzzled.
One thing I know. There is not one single verse in the bible that says we go to heaven when we die. But yet, I cannot get around Paul's being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord... or "to live is Christ, to die is gain...." or when he was divided over wanting to remain with his friends or depart and be with the Lord.
On the other hand, there are numerous, numerous verses throughout the Old Testament and even in the New that *appear* to contradict these (couple of verses) used to support heaven-going.
As I have already posted, David and Job knew they would go to the grave and that the dead know nothing at all, nor can they praise the Lord from there. Their whole hope was the Resurrection of the Dead. Job is clear that he will see his Savior when his Savior stands on the EARTH (not in heaven) on the Last Day.
Job 19:25Apostle Paul even was on trial for the defense of the Resurrection!
"I know my Redeemer lives, and that in the end HE WILL STAND UPON THE EARTH. And after my skin as been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see Him with my own eyes..."
From what I have studied, the spirit is the breath of life... and as you said, the soul is the mind will and emotions. I do not see how these two are the same thing... and YET...there are times when they DO represent the same thing. (Interesting).
When Stephen died, he committed his spirit (breath of life) to the Lord. Was this only his spirit or was it also his soul? And if it was both, then how do we explain Job and David's verses about how the dead cannot praise the Lord?
Also, I have many questions... but these will suffice for now.
1.) We hear there will be "no more tears in heaven," and yet, the first time we see mention of this is in Revelation when the New Jerusalem is brought to earth FROM heaven.
a.) So heaven-goers, will there be no more tears in heaven when you die? And if so, where is this verse? Because here it shows this won't happen until after the Resurrection in the Kingdom of Heaven.2.) We talk about how glorious it will be when we get to heaven and how perfect everything will be in the presence of the Lord, and yet, somehow we will still be longing for "something more"....as in our new bodies and our new home.
a.) How could we possibly long for anything more if we are in the "presence of the Lord??" This never made any sense to me at all. 3.) If we are in heaven after we die, we are told we are prasing the Lord, but yet Job and David say this isn't so. If we are praising him, can we see him?
a.) The references for WHEN we will SEE the Lord for the first time is on the Last Day (according to Job) and Revelation 22:4 in the New Jerusalem.4.) Last point, though I have many others... I hear preachers say all the time that we will receive our reward when we die and go to heaven.
a.) Where is this verse? Because according to Rev 22:12 Christ tells us that he is COMING soon and his reward is WITH him, and he will give to everyone according to what they have done. There are so many other questions I have that people who believe in heaven-going cannot answer. I would LOVE for someone in this Thread, perhaps a Mod, or anyone to give an answer to these few questions I have.
My mind is not made up either way. But I know to believe in heaven-going or any other doctrine, Scripture has to harmonize and these verses of Paul's that people use to support heaven-going do not line up with all of the many, many other verses that say otherwise.
I do know one thing...My hope is the same as Job's, David's and Paul's...The Resurrection on the Last Day!!
I look forward to the responses.