Will we go straight to heaven after death? (moved from BC)

[theBelovedDisciple]

Something else interesting about Stephan is that when he saw the heavens open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God, while he was being stoned he called on the Lord and said Lord Jesus, receive my spirit! That tells me that he saw Jesus at God's right hand and believed his spirit would be received by the Lord there.

Thats a great post.. Yes...

Christ is in Heaven.. Stephan before being stoned saw the Lord Jesus standing on the Right Hand of God.. and he said..
Jesus Hold not this sin against them.. and recieve my spirit...

Did Stephan go to be with Jesus? or did he go to another place...


To be Absent from the Body is to be Present with the Lord...

and we can say this with Confidence.. those who Know the Truth.. and know Him... that is our Hope... we are not separated from Him at death...

present with the Lord.......... in the Greek language...

Present: to be among one's own people, dwell in one's own country, stay at home

present with who??? The Lord.. where is He at?? Heaven...


Listen to Paul's exhortation in Thessalonians here...

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who died for us, that, whether we wake(alive) or sleep(physical death), we should live together with HIM.

Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

obviously when Paul was writing this there were some who were perpetuating false doctrine... Paul sets the record straight under the Direction of the Holy Ghost..... he writes this to make sure believers will not be decieved by the false doctrine.. Paul is writing to the Thessalonians here because some have spread false doctrine back then about the 'coming' of the Lord.. and that it had already happened and they missed the Resurrection... edifying and comforting one another .. In Spirit and In Truth... that will strengthen the 'bonds' between believers.. to build up.. thats what it means to edify.. strengthen one's faith and belief.. against false teaching and doctrine that is always and I say always trying to infiltrate Simple Faith and the Truth... that beguilement of the Truth.. which is so Subtle.. and done by none other than the 'opposer of the Truth' he who never abode in the Truth..

Those days are not much different than today with all the ideas out there..about the Resurrection... life after physcial death and so on..

[Butch5]

Alyssa---Yes, and Jesus also said he was bringing our reward with Him. It doesn't say we are going up there to get it... not that I know of.

And this is what is so interesting. If there is no verse that says we go to heaven when we die, then why is it such a popular teaching today? These above verses say that NO MAN has ascended to heaven.

The doctrine is known as the intermediate state, it is the belief that all souls go into hades at death to await the resurrection. It is believed that there are two sections as told in Jesus parable, there is Abraham's bosom and he place to torment. For the first 225 years or so there was not real problem in understanding this, however over the next centuries the people began to believe that they could pay for their sins after death by the amount of time spent in Hades, they also believed that a price could be paid to reduce this amount of time. When hte reformers came along they rejected this doctrine and went back to the intermediate state ( one of the things they did right). However, I believe it was the Puritans, in their opposition to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, who began to teach that we go to heaven when we die. If you study this you will find that this is recent believe in the church and was not taught by the early Church. The funny thing is this was also the belief of the Gnostic, they believed when they were saved and died they would ascend to be with God.

Alyssa---There are many verses in the Old Testament that speak of going down into the grave and not being able to praise the Lord. This was one of David's concerns. He wanted to live so that he could praise the Lord.
Psalm 115:17
"It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down into silence;

Psalm 88:10
"Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead raise up and praise you?"

Psalm 71:2
"you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up."

Psalm 49:15
"But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself."

When will we see his face?
Psalm 17:15
"And I - in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisified with seeing your likeness."

Job 19:25
"I know my Redeemer lives, and that in the end HE WILL STAND UPON THE EARTH. And after my skin as been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see Him with my own eyes..."

Yes, I had not noticed these, especially Job 19:25, as it is one of my favorite verses.

I guess my question is; will we be conscious? These verses I listed above seem to say No. But we know Messiah preached to the spirits in prison. But what am I missing? Also, we are told when we die that the spirit returns to the Lord and the dust returns to the ground (Ecclesiastes 12:7). The spirit is the breath of life and all living things have the breath of life and the breath of life returns to God. What does that leave in Hades? It would seem it is only the dust.

If God is dwelling in heaven and our spirit returns to him, then that means he is not below the earth. I realize God is omnipresent but our spirit is returning to heaven (the place we will not be). I know I am missing something, and I am suspecting you have a clear explanation.

I believe it is God's omnipresence. Consider what David said.

Psalms 139:8 ( KJV ) 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Hell here is Hades

I am very fascinated by the early church and use them as a reference for No Remarriage (one of my beliefs.) Would you by chance, have a list or a reference of who all believed this way? I know you listed one, but you said "they all say we go into hades to await the Resurrection." So the early church as a whole did not believe in heaven going? Could you give references if it is not a problem?

It is believed this is the Clement who traveled with Paul and is mentioned in Philippians.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Clement of Rome AD. 96
Chap. L.—Let Us Pray to Be Thought Worthy of Love. Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, "Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves." (Isa. 26:20) Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin 19 the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile." (Ps. 32:1, 2) This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ante-Nicene Fathers,
Tertullian, A. D. 190 A treatise on the Soul.
Conclusion. Points Postponed. All Souls Are Kept in Hades Until the Resurrection, Anticipating Their Ultimate Misery or Bliss.
All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? (It is true, whether) you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich. And now, having postponed some stray questions for this part of my work, I will notice them in this suitable place, and then come to a close. Why, then, cannot you suppose that the soul undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgment, in a certain anticipation either of gloom or of glory? You reply: Because in the judgment of God its matter ought to be sure and safe, nor should there be any inkling beforehand of the award of His sentence; and also because (the soul) ought to be covered first by its vestment of the restored flesh, which, as the partner of its actions, should be also a sharer in its recompense. What, then, is to take place in that interval? Shall we sleep? But souls do not sleep even when men are alive: it is indeed the business of bodies to sleep, to which also belongs death itself, no less than its mirror and counterfeit sleep.
.
Irenaeus, A.D. 180 Book 5 Against Heresies
The Preservation of Our Bodies Is Confirmed by the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ: The Souls of the Saints During the Intermediate Period Are in a State of Expectation of That Time When They Shall Receive Their Perfect and Consummated Glory.
If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day "in the lower parts of the earth;" (Eph. 4:9) then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples, (John 20:20, 27) He thus ascended to the Father;—[if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that "the lower parts" refer to this world of ours, but that their tuner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord "went away in the midst of the shadow of death," (Ps. 23:4) where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God. "For no disciple is above the Master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his Master." (Luke 6:40) As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by God and foretold by the prophets, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege].

Justin Martyr, A.D. 160 Discourse with Trypho
Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you. For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistae, Meristae, Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Justin Martyr A.D. 160
so likewise Christ declared that ignorance was not on His side, but on theirs, who thought that He was not the Christ, but fancied they would put Him to death, and that He, like some common mortal, would remain in Hades.

Continued...

[Butch5]

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2

Clement of Alexandria. A.D. 195
And, as I think, the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save; which accordingly He also did by drawing to salvation those who became willing, by the preaching [of the Gospel], to believe on Him, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was either to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there; since God’s punishments 491 are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance than the death of a sinner; (Ezek. 18:23, 32, 33:11, etc.) and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly, because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh. If, then, He preached only to the Jews, who wanted the knowledge and faith of the Saviour, it is plain that, since God is no respecter of persons, the apostles also, as here, so there preached the Gospel to those of the heathen who were ready for conversion. And it is well said by the Shepherd, "They went down with them therefore into the water, and again ascended. But these descended alive, and again ascended alive. But those who had fallen asleep, descended dead, but ascended alive. Further the Gospel (Matt. 27:52) says, "that many bodies of those that slept arose,"—plainly as having been translated to a better state. There took place, then, a universal movement and translation through the economy of the Saviour.

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Hippolytus A.D. 205
1. And this is the passage regarding demons. But now we must speak of Hades, in which the souls both of the righteous and the unrighteous are detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there. This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, distributing according to each one’s deeds the temporary punishments for (different) characters. And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, a lake of unquenchable fire, into which we suppose no one has ever yet been cast; for it is prepared against the day determined by God, in which one sentence of righteous judgment shall be justly applied to all. And the unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), shall be sentenced to this endless punishment. But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and un-fading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host. And when those who are conducted by the angels appointed unto the souls have passed through this gate, they do not proceed on one and the same way; but the righteous, being conducted in the light toward the right, and being hymned by the angels stationed at the place, are brought to a locality full of light. And there the righteous from the beginning dwell, not ruled by necessity, but enjoying always the contemplation of the blessings which are in their view, and delighting themselves with the expectation of others ever new, and deeming those ever better than these. And that place brings no toils to them. There, there is neither fierce heat, nor cold, nor thorn; but the face of the fathers and the righteous is seen to be always smiling, as they wait for the rest and eternal revival in heaven which succeed this location. And we call it by the name Abraham’s bosom. But the unrighteous are dragged toward the left by angels who are ministers of punishment, and they go of their own accord no longer, but are dragged by force as prisoners. And the angels appointed over them send them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower parts. And when they are brought there, those appointed to that service drag them on to the confines or hell. And those who are so near hear incessantly the agitation, and feel the hot smoke. And when that vision is so near, as they see the terrible and excessively glowing spectacle of the fire, they shudder in horror at the expectation of the future judgment, (as if they were) already feeling the power of their punishment. And again, where they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they are also punished there. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst, so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to pass it, nor any of the unrighteous dare to cross it. 2. Thus far, then, on the subject of Hades, in which the souls of all are detained until the time which God has determined;
Notice here that Hippolytus seems to thing that heaven awaits hte believer after the resurrection, however I don't know that I agree with that. Even so, he still acknowleges that soul are deteained in Hades until the resurrection.

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4
Origen A.D. 225
23. And perhaps as those here, dying according to the death common to all, are, in consequence of the deeds done here, so arranged as to obtain different places according to the proportion of their sins, if they should be deemed worthy of the place called Hades; so those there dying, so to speak, descend into this Hades, being judged deserving of different abodes—better or worse—throughout all this space of earth, and (of being descended) from parents of different kinds, so that an Israelite may sometimes fall among Scythians, and an Egyptian descend into Judea.

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Novatian A.D. 235
And truly, what lies beneath the earth is not itself void of distributed and arranged powers. For there is a place whither the souls of the just and the unjust are taken, conscious of the anticipated dooms of fixture judgment;

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6
Methodius A.D. 290
If, then, any one of those who have fallen asleep is recorded as having appeared, in the same way he has been seen in the form which he had when he was in the flesh. Besides, when Samuel appeared, it is clear that, being seen, he was clothed in a body;29IX-3-29 and this must especially be admitted, if we are pressed by arguments which prove that the essence of the soul is incorporeal, and is manifested by itself.30IX-3-30 But the rich man in torment, and the poor man who was comforted in the bosom of Abraham, are said, the one to be punished in Hades, and the other to be comforted in Abraham’s bosom, before the appearing of the Saviour, and before the end of the world, and therefore before the resurrection;

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7
Lactantius A.D. 304-313
Nor, however, let any one imagine that souls are immediately judged after death. For all are detained in one and a common place of confinement, until the arrival of the time in which the great Judge shall make an investigation of their deserts.134I-1g-134 Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment.

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6
Alexander of Alexandria A.D. 324
3. But when man afterwards by his fall had inclined to death, it was necessary that that form should be recreated anew to salvation by the same Artificer. For the form indeed lay rotting in the ground; but that inspiration which had been as the breath of life, was detained separate from the body in a dark place, which is called Hades. There was, therefore, a division of the soul from the body; it was banished ad inferos, whilst the latter was resolved into dust;

Let me recommend, "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs", By David Bercot, you will find these and many other quotes.

If you meesage me I can give you a link to a site where you can purchase early church teaching in audio form inexpensively.

[Butch5]

That would be a good question and if the answer is that the disciples didn't go to heaven when they died, then what would that make Paul's statement that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord? A Lie? Or is Paul saying that the Lord is NOT in heaven because if we are with the Lord when we are absent from the body and we are not in heaven, then the Lord is where ever we are and if that is not heaven then is the Lord not in heaven either? To not be in the body is clearly a reference to death of the body.

First let's look at what Paul said,

2 Corinthians 5:8 ( KJV ) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

He didn't say to absent from the body "is" to be present with the Lord,
He said, I am willing rather to be absent from the body "and" be present with the Lord.

There is a big difference in those two statements. The first means that when one is absent from the body they are present with the Lord. However that is "not" what Paul said. He said I am "willing rather" to be absent from the body "and" be present with the Lord. He is saying He would rather be out of his body and present with the Lord, he says that is what He would like, that doesn't mean it will happen. I could say I am willing rather to be out of my house and present in Hawaii, that does not mean when I walk out my front door, I am going to be in Hawaii. It only means, I wish that were the case.

Jesus said, where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am also, He said to the disciples, I am with you always, even til the of hte age. If we understand this literally then we must come to the conclusion that He is Omnipresent as the Father is. Consider David's statement,

Psalms 139:8 ( KJV ) 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

[Butch5]

Something else interesting about Stephan is that when he saw the heavens open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God, while he was being stoned he called on the Lord and said Lord Jesus, receive my spirit! That tells me that he saw Jesus at God's right hand and believed his spirit would be received by the Lord there.

Yes, but receive my Spirit does not mean he went to heaven. If you read it with the understanding that one goes to heaven that is hte logical conclusion one comes to. However, If you understand the the soul of the righteous goes to Abraham's bosom and Christ is there, you would understand that Stephen would be received in Abraham's bosom. If you study this doctrine you will find that it is not an old doctrine in the church, Even the reformers, Calvin and Luther believed that souls were detained in hades until the resurrection. The idea that Christians go to heaven was brought into the church by the Puritans.

Here is Calvin from his institutes.

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

Moreover, to pry curiously into their intermediate state is neither lawful nor expedient (see Calv. Psychopannychia). Many greatly torment themselves with discussing what place they occupy, and whether or not they already enjoy celestial glory. It is foolish and rash to inquire into hidden things, farther than God permits us to know. Scripture, after telling that Christ is present with them, and receives them into paradise (John 12:32), and that they are comforted, while the souls of the reprobate suffer the torments which they have merited goes no farther. What teacher or doctor will reveal to us what God has concealed? As to the place of abode, the question is not less futile and inept, since we know that the dimension of the soul is not the same as that of the body. When the abode of blessed spirits is designated as the bosom of Abraham, it is plain that, on quitting this pilgrimage, they are received by the common father of the faithful, who imparts to them the fruit of his faith. Still, since Scripture uniformly enjoins us to look with expectation to the advent of Christ, and delays the crown of glory till that period, let us be contented with the limits divinely prescribed to us, viz., that the souls of the righteous, after their warfare is ended, obtain blessed rest where in joy they wait for the fruition of promised glory, and that thus the final result is suspended till Christ the Redeemer appear. There can be no doubt that the reprobate have the same doom as that which Jude assigns to the devils, they are “reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”

Calvin agreed with the early church here, this is as late as the 1500's. The heavenly destiny idea came from Augustine but was rejected by the church, it was later picked up after Calvin, most like the Puritans

[Butch5]

In Revelation when the two prophets were slain a loud voice from heaven told them to go up there. Then in a cloud they went up to heaven. Were the witnesses (2 Prophets) not men? Did they not die? Did they not have "dead bodies"? And yet, they went up to heaven!

A word that the Lord gave after answering the question of marriage after death is a verse that really amazes me. Matt. 22:29-32
The Lord told them that they were not only mistaken to think there is marriage in the resurrection, they were also mistaken about the resurrection of the dead itself. One has to be dead to be resurrected, right? Well, Jesus said that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living and He said this right after He said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As we know at the time Jesus said this, Abraham, Issac and Jacob had died. Surely He didn't mean that God was the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob only while they were still alive and not when they died too? I believe it has something to do with believers having eternal life? Opps better stop. I'm getting off on a tangent as they say.

Yes, the Prophets were men, however, Revelation is not teaching doctrine, it is giving Prophecy. If we use an event that is not teaching doctrine to teach doctrine, we get into trouble. using this line of reasoning, one could say that all Christians will be caught up to the third heaven as Paul was, or we could say that all Christians are going to have end time revelation as John had. We can only apply to doctrine what the Scriptures teach as doctrine. When Paul says we are buried with Him in baptism and raise to walk in newness of life, he is teaching doctrine. So, we know that this applies to all Christians.

Regarding the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, I believe they are alive, and awaiting the resurrection in Abraham's bosom.

[John146]

First let's look at what Paul said,

2 Corinthians 5:8 ( KJV ) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

He didn't say to absent from the body "is" to be present with the Lord,
He said, I am willing rather to be absent from the body "and" be present with the Lord.

There is a big difference in those two statements. The first means that when one is absent from the body they are present with the Lord. However that is "not" what Paul said. He said I am "willing rather" to be absent from the body "and" be present with the Lord. He is saying He would rather be out of his body and present with the Lord, he says that is what He would like, that doesn't mean it will happen. I could say I am willing rather to be out of my house and present in Hawaii, that does not mean when I walk out my front door, I am going to be in Hawaii. It only means, I wish that were the case.

Let's take a closer look at the passage.

2 Cor 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You quoted verse 8, but you can't understand what it means without also reading verse 6. In verse 6, he flat out says that being at home in the body is to be absent from the Lord. Why would he have said that if we are also absent from the Lord when we are absent from the body? We have the Spirit dwelling in us, so had to be talking in terms of not being in His very presence, which we should know would mean we'd have to be in heaven for that to be the case. If we are still absent from the Lord when we physically die, then why would Paul say that he'd rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord instead of still being present and alive in his body?

What he is really saying there is that he'd rather be physically dead so that he would then be spiritually present with the Lord than to still be physically alive but not in the Lord's presence in heaven. It's the same concept he talked about elsewhere.

Philippians 1
20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

If nothing much changes when we die as you seem to be claiming then why did he say to die is gain? Notice verse 23. He is implying there that he would like to depart (physically die) so that he could be with Christ in heaven, which he says is far better than still being physically alive here. But, he's torn because he knows he's still needed on earth. He also implies in verse 23 that to depart or physically die would result in being with Christ. That's why he could say earlier that to die is gain.

If it would only be until potentially much later (at the resurrection) that he would actually be with Christ then the things he said there would not make any sense. Why wouldn't he just want to stay around as long as possible if he'd have to wait to be with Christ whether he died or not? I believe he is clearly implying that he expected that he would be with Christ immediately after he physically died.

[Alyssa S]

Regarding the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, I believe they are alive, and awaiting the resurrection in Abraham's bosom.

Thanks for your generous posts, Butch5. I really appreciate it!! I will read it again in a little while.

So you do believe the one who are in hades/Paradise awaiting the Resurrection are conscious? So then if they are, what do we do with all of the verses that I mentioned earlier that talk about the dead not being able to praise the Lord from the grave? It says they go down to silence.

What says you?

God bless,
Alyssa

[Alyssa S]

Let's take a closer look at the passage.

2 Cor 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You quoted verse 8, but you can't understand what it means without also reading verse 6. In verse 6, he flat out says that being at home in the body is to be absent from the Lord. Why would he have said that if we are also absent from the Lord when we are absent from the body? We have the Spirit dwelling in us, so had to be talking in terms of not being in His very presence, which we should know would mean we'd have to be in heaven for that to be the case. If we are still absent from the Lord when we physically die, then why would Paul say that he'd rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord instead of still being present and alive in his body?

What he is really saying there is that he'd rather be physically dead so that he would then be spiritually present with the Lord than to still be physically alive but not in the Lord's presence in heaven. It's the same concept he talked about elsewhere.

Philippians 1
20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

If nothing much changes when we die as you seem to be claiming then why did he say to die is gain? Notice verse 23. He is implying there that he would like to depart (physically die) so that he could be with Christ in heaven, which he says is far better than still being physically alive here. But, he's torn because he knows he's still needed on earth. He also implies in verse 23 that to depart or physically die would result in being with Christ. That's why he could say earlier that to die is gain.

If it would only be until potentially much later (at the resurrection) that he would actually be with Christ then the things he said there would not make any sense. Why wouldn't he just want to stay around as long as possible if he'd have to wait to be with Christ whether he died or not? I believe he is clearly implying that he expected that he would be with Christ immediately after he physically died.

Hi John 146

You have some good arguments. But I think both sides have good arguments, that is why this subject perplexes me!

When do you think we will "see" the Lord? When we die and go to heaven? Or at the Resurrection?

Psalm 17:15
"And I - in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisified with seeing your likeness."

Job 19:25
"I know my Redeemer lives, and that in the end HE WILL STAND UPON THE EARTH. And after my skin as been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see Him with my own eyes..."

God bless you,
Alyssa

[Butch5]

Let's take a closer look at the passage.

2 Cor 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You quoted verse 8, but you can't understand what it means without also reading verse 6. In verse 6, he flat out says that being at home in the body is to be absent from the Lord. Why would he have said that if we are also absent from the Lord when we are absent from the body? We have the Spirit dwelling in us, so had to be talking in terms of not being in His very presence, which we should know would mean we'd have to be in heaven for that to be the case. If we are still absent from the Lord when we physically die, then why would Paul say that he'd rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord instead of still being present and alive in his body?

What he is really saying there is that he'd rather be physically dead so that he would then be spiritually present with the Lord than to still be physically alive but not in the Lord's presence in heaven. It's the same concept he talked about elsewhere.

Philippians 1
20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

If nothing much changes when we die as you seem to be claiming then why did he say to die is gain? Notice verse 23. He is implying there that he would like to depart (physically die) so that he could be with Christ in heaven, which he says is far better than still being physically alive here. But, he's torn because he knows he's still needed on earth. He also implies in verse 23 that to depart or physically die would result in being with Christ. That's why he could say earlier that to die is gain.

If it would only be until potentially much later (at the resurrection) that he would actually be with Christ then the things he said there would not make any sense. Why wouldn't he just want to stay around as long as possible if he'd have to wait to be with Christ whether he died or not? I believe he is clearly implying that he expected that he would be with Christ immediately after he physically died.

John,

Are you following all of my posts? I didn't say one has to wait until the resurrection to be with Christ. In the verse you are questioning, all I did was point out that the verse does not say to be absent from the body "is" to be present with the Lord. I didn't say a person was not present with the Lord after death, I merely pointed out that this verse does not say that.

If you have read my posts you know that I said, I believe it is that Jesus is omnipresent and that is how one can be with the Lord and not be in heaven.

[Pilgrimtozion]

Since soul sleep is strictly to be discussed in World Religions (it is a Jehovah's Witness / Seventh Day Adventist Doctrine), I'm moving this thread to that forum.

[Butch5]

Since soul sleep is strictly to be discussed in World Religions (it is a Jehovah's Witness / Seventh Day Adventist Doctrine), I'm moving this thread to that forum.

That's what I said at the begining, how is this soul sleep? I don't really know the doctrine, I have not studied it.

[David Taylor]

Take a minute and study it...and let share with us where and why you differ from it and reject it...because I too have read your posts before and thought "soul sleep".

That might help clear things up some.

From a WR subforum perpsective, however, the viewpoint is that the soul/spirit/immaterial aspect of a person at death goes consciously to be with the Lord to await Resurrection day.

It does not lie unconscious in the tomb until Resurrection day.

Any view otherwise, is a variant of soul-sleep and against the rules to promote.

[Butch5]

Take a minute and study it...and let share with us where and why you differ from it and reject it...because I too have read your posts before and thought "soul sleep".

That might help clear things up some.

From a WR subforum perpsective, however, the viewpoint is that the soul/spirit/immaterial aspect of a person at death goes consciously to be with the Lord to await Resurrection day.

It does not lie unconscious in the tomb until Resurrection day.

Any view otherwise, is a variant of soul-sleep and against the rules to promote.

Why, when the teaching that we go to heaven did not enter the church until around 1600. Even the reformers didn't preach that we go to heaven when we die. Here is a quote from Calvin,

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

Moreover, to pry curiously into their intermediate state is neither lawful nor expedient (see Calv. Psychopannychia). Many greatly torment themselves with discussing what place they occupy, and whether or not they already enjoy celestial glory. It is foolish and rash to inquire into hidden things, farther than God permits us to know. Scripture, after telling that Christ is present with them, and receives them into paradise (John 12:32), and that they are comforted, while the souls of the reprobate suffer the torments which they have merited goes no farther. What teacher or doctor will reveal to us what God has concealed? As to the place of abode, the question is not less futile and inept, since we know that the dimension of the soul is not the same as that of the body. When the abode of blessed spirits is designated as the bosom of Abraham, it is plain that, on quitting this pilgrimage, they are received by the common father of the faithful, who imparts to them the fruit of his faith. Still, since Scripture uniformly enjoins us to look with expectation to the advent of Christ, and delays the crown of glory till that period, let us be contented with the limits divinely prescribed to us, viz., that the souls of the righteous, after their warfare is ended, obtain blessed rest where in joy they wait for the fruition of promised glory, and that thus the final result is suspended till Christ the Redeemer appear. There can be no doubt that the reprobate have the same doom as that which Jude assigns to the devils, they are “reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”

If that is not enough, consider this, Clement of Rome, he traveled with and was a companion of the apostle Paul.


Philippians 4:3 ( KJV ) 3And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

This is what He said,

Clement of Rome AD. 96

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Chap. L.—Let Us Pray to Be Thought Worthy of Love. Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, “Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves.” (Isa. 26:20) Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin 19 the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile.” (Ps. 32:1, 2) This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That comes from a man who was Paul's companion. How far back can you trace the teaching that we go to heaven when we die???

[Sirus]

Why, when the teaching that we go to heaven did not enter the church until around 1600. Even the reformers didn't preach that we go to heaven when we die. Here is a quote from Calvin,

1600? Calvin?