Will we go straight to heaven after death? (moved from BC)

[Butch5]

1600? Calvin?

What do you find so humous?

[Butch5]

I know Calvin opposed Luther's teaching of soul sleep...as he refutted it in Psychopannychia. But it would seem that you are not even speaking of soul sleep, as you have quoted Calvin talking about Paradise vs. heaven. But didn't Calvin believe Paradise and heaven where the same thing?

He was radically opposed to Luther's teaching that the soul was mortal.

Anyhoo.... I think a few on here are under the assumption you are promoting soul sleep, but it would seem that this is NOT what you believe in...since you quoted Calvin, who opposed it. And you said yourself that you weren't promoting soul sleep since you weren't familar with it.

I am curious too, how your thread ended up over here in World Religions??

Your argument is for Paradise at death vs. Heaven at death. Is this correct?

God bless,
Alyssa

Yes that is correct, most people just assume we go to heaven when we die. However, that is not taught in Scripture and it was not the belief of the church until around the 1600's. I find it hard to believe that for the first 1500 years everyone in the entire history of Christianity had it wrong and then the Puritans come along and all of a sudden they have the true word of God. Augustine introduced the idea of the heavenly destiny and it was rejected by the church. The Puritans, in their attempt to counter the Catholic church's doctrine of Purgatory, began to preach the heavenly destiny. As you saw from the quote, even Calvin, a major player in the Reformation, which brought about the teaching of the heavenly destiny, rejected the idea.

Notice Calvin speaks of Abraham's bosom not heaven.
Also I haven't forgotten about your verses.

[Butch5]

Butch,
None of those writings conflict with the mainstream protestant view that the spirit of the faithful returns to God at death, and the body enters into rest inside the tomb until the resurrection.

I have no problem agreeing with you that the body rests in the grave awaiting the resurection.

However, if you say that the spirit doesn't go to be in the presence of the Lord, then we have a conflict. Spirit's of those who belong to Christ are His, not the grounds.

When we become one of His, we are to forever be with him, not have thousands of years of separation from Him.

Can you show me where I said that beleivers do not go to be with the Lord? What I said was, beleivers don't go to heaven when they die.

[My heart's Desire]

Hi Bick!

I have many questions that wonderful Christians who believe in "heaven-going" cannot answer. But there are questions for the other side as well that can't seem to be answered. It leaves me puzzled.

One thing I know. There is not one single verse in the bible that says we go to heaven when we die. But yet, I cannot get around Paul's being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord... or "to live is Christ, to die is gain...." or when he was divided over wanting to remain with his friends or depart and be with the Lord.

.

God bless,
Alyssa

Hi Alyssa,
There are doctrines in the Word where something doesn't just come right out and say something. Scripture must be kept in context and Scripture also will interpret itself.
I also am not steeped in the Church Fathers and of course what they've contributed is I'm sure of great value, yet they were still mere men just as we are. Christ is the One Who had the truth. As we know, even the Church Fathers didn't all agree on everything either.
For myself, I believe when we die we are somehow present with the Lord, if in heaven, good or somewhere else still good as we are still present with the Lord. I believe we are and will be aware that we are.
Yes, the Lord is omnipresent and He is with us even as we live. So why not so much more when we are dead? And even regarding that Scripture tells me when we believe we have eternal Life. I know there is a difference between spiritual life and physical Life but what Christ did on the Cross made all the difference in the subject of death. One who believes, no longer has to fear death. Which is why Hebrews 2:14-15 means so much to me.

If we are not present with Christ when we die what would make us different then than those who are not believers when they die?
I don't have all the answers but that is where faith and hope comes in doesn't it?I gotta go to work, now. More later maybe?

[Butch5]

They are our bodies...raised to new life.

Following the example of Jesus Himself.

Jesus:
Died on the cross.
His spirit went immediately to be with the Father in Heaven.
His body was removed and placed in the grave to wait.
His Resurrection Day.
His old body is raised incorruptible, and His spirit and body unit reunited again forevermore.

Us:
We will die (somewhere).
Our spirit will immediately be with the Father in Heaven.
Our body will be placed in the grave to wait.
Our Resurrection Day.
Our old bodies will be raised incorruptible, and our spirit and body unit reunites again forevermore.

Paul explains the process in the most detail here.
I Thess 3:13, 4:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"

So when the Resurrection occurs, both the spirits of those who are in Heaven with Jesus will return with Him, to be united with our risen and glorified bodies; together.

The body and spirit that was separated at physical death, is reunited in a glorified and eternal way at the resurrection to newness of life!

Just as James told us, "For as the body without the spirit is dead".

The body awaits the return of the spirit, to become alive again at the resurrection.

His Spirit went immediately to the Father???


Matthew 12:40 ( KJV ) 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Acts 2:29-31 ( KJV ) 29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Acts 2:32 ( KJV ) 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.


John 20:16-17 ( KJV ) 16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17Jesus saith unto her,Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

You are correct we do just as Jesus did, He dies and spent 3 days in hte heart of the earth, which we see from David is Hades, then He was resurrected. As will we, die, go into Hades and be resurrected

[David Taylor]

Can you show me where I said that beleivers do not go to be with the Lord? What I said was, beleivers don't go to heaven when they die.

The Lord is in Heaven....and not in the tomb, or the ground, or some purgatory-place. So when believers go to be with the Lord...they are with Him in Heaven. (only their dead bodies remain on Earth in the tomb.)



Mark 16:19 "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."

Luke 24:51 "And it came to pass, while Jesus blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven."

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Acts 1:11 "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven"

Romans 10:6 "the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above"

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ is entered not into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself"

I Peter 1:21 "Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God"

When

[David Taylor]

His Spirit went immediately to the Father???

Yes, without a doubt.

Matthew 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. "

Matthew 12:40 ( KJV ) 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus body was in the tomb of the grave for 3 days...as prophesied.

Acts 2:29-31 ( KJV ) 29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jesus body was in the tomb of the grave for 3 days...as prophesied.

(soul in this case, is contextually body, not immaterial soul...only bodies see corruption, not immaterial souls. Hell in this context, is grave, not place of the tormented wicked. Again, context, not Greek/Hebrew words in a box, explains this passage...since those words aren't used consistently in all cases to refer to the same thing.)

Acts 2:32 ( KJV ) 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Jesus body was raised up...as prophesied and witnessed.

John 20:16-17 ( KJV ) 16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17Jesus saith unto her,Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus body had not yet ascended to the Father at this time..his Spirit went to the Father in Heaven when it departed His body on the cross at His death.

""Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. "

You are correct we do just as Jesus did, He died and spent 3 days in the heart of the earth, which we see from David is Hades, then He was resurrected. As will we, die, go into Hades and be resurrected

If you want to interpret 'Hades' or 'Hell' as the grave in this context, then no problem or conflict. Jesus' body went into the grave for 3 days. His spirit however, did not die and go into the ground...nor did his spirit cease to exist or become unaware and unconscious.

[Alyssa S]

Hey David...

Thanks for your effort on this. I appreciate it.

I will write more later (aren't you happy??!!!) hahaha....

But let me ask you this before I forget. I know that Jesus gave up his spirit (breath of life), and he was in the earth (as Jonah was in the belly of the fish), preaching to the spirits there.

If he was in heaven, how could he be in hades preaching to the spirits?

Thanks!
Talk to ya more later

God bless,
Alyssa

[David Taylor]

Hey David...

Thanks for your effort on this. I appreciate it.

I will write more later (aren't you happy??!!!) hahaha....

But let me ask you this before I forget. I know that Jesus gave up his spirit (breath of life), and he was in the earth (as Jonah was in the belly of the fish), preaching to the spirits there.

If he was in heaven, how could he be in hades preaching to the spirits?

Thanks!
Talk to ya more later

God bless,
Alyssa

Myself personally, I believe your premise is a myth.

I don't think Jesus was preaching to anyone in a purgatory-like holding tank between the cross and the resurrection.

The people who died before Jesus' death didn't need a post-death preaching. They had their chance to repent and follow the Lord, during their own lifetimes.

That verse is used by Catholics to justify purgatory, and it is used more and more also by WOF movement folks to teach the heretical notion that Jesus had to go into hell and suffer direct punishment from the Devil in order to fully and completely atone for our sins...that it wasn't finished on the cross; but his atonement was finished in Hell after taking sufficient licks from Satan.

Just can't buy any of those interpretations.

Going back to that passage, and re-examining it:

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

"Spirits in Prison" here, IMO, is simply talking about the unrepentent during their lives. Those who were in captivity to sin. Those who were in bondage to sin. Those who through him alone, could find salvation...like Job did, like David did, like Isaiah did....all during their lives, by faithfully repenting and following the Lord.

(not some supposed after-death salvation experience as is often speculated in this passage)

Do you not believe that Jesus preached to the people in the O.T. times? (during their lives)

I sure do. Whether directly through theophanies and christophanies, or through the prophets like this example:

John 5:45 "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

If Jesus had to die and the go preach to the dead people in a purgatory-like after-death holding tank...why did Jesus tell them above, that listening and believing in Moses words was like believing in His own words?

Why did Jesus say the OT writings taught of His death, burial, and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins...if a post-death group-salvation was required?

See where this notion leads? All kinds of problems.

We are saved during our lives, not after them when we are dead....otherwise, why not even today for us...let's teach we can put off repenting and turning in faith to Jesus during this life, because we like the supposed "spirits in prison" may also get a special preaching session from Jesus after our own deaths...and we can then choose to repent...do we really want to teach this dangerous stuff?

What did Paul say? "II Corinthians 6:2 For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. " (not after death). BTW, who was the "he that saith" in blue? It was Isaiah, preaching to his audience of living people that the time was acceptable and the day of salvation was available during his day....700 years before Jesus died on the cross.


"if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. "

Jesus puts the responsibility for the OT people upon hearing and believe the Word of God....not in a post-death salvation from one who is dead.

[Butch5]

Where he is willing to be makes no difference to what he said. If he is in the body he is absent from the Lord and if he is absent from the Lord he is still in the body.
In Phil. 1:21-23 Paul in Prison continues with this theme.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
But I am hard pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

I didn't say Paul wouldn't be with Christ, the verse you quoted did not say that to be absent from the body "is" to be present with Christ. I didn't say this was not the case, I said the verse you used did not say that .

[Alyssa S]

"Spirits in Prison" here, IMO, is simply talking about the unrepentent during their lives. Those who were in captivity to sin. Those who were in bondage to sin. Those who through him alone, could find salvation...like Job did, like David did, like Isaiah did....all during their lives, by faithfully repenting and following the Lord.

(not some supposed after-death salvation experience as is often speculated in this passage)

.

Sounds good to me.

That verse was always very strange to me, just as the one about being baptized for the dead.

Thanks for your two cents!

More to come....

[Butch5]

David Taylor---Yes, without a doubt.

Matthew 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. "

Committing His Spirit into God's hands does not mean have to mean He went to heaven. He simply committed Himself to God's will

David Taylor---Jesus body was in the tomb of the grave for 3 days...as prophesied.

His body was in the heart of the earth? Wasn't it in the Sepulchre?

David Taylor---Jesus body was in the tomb of the grave for 3 days...as prophesied.

(soul in this case, is contextually body, not immaterial soul...only bodies see corruption, not immaterial souls. Hell in this context, is grave, not place of the tormented wicked. Again, context, not Greek/Hebrew words in a box, explains this passage...since those words aren't used consistently in all cases to refer to the same thing.)

If it was His body that went into Hades, please explain this passage,

1 Peter 3:18-20 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:4-6 ( KJV ) 4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Was it Christ's body that preached to the dead? That preached to the spirits in prison?
No, I believe when David prophesies, "you will not leave my soul in hades" that is exactly what he means.

David Taylor---Jesus body had not yet ascended to the Father at this time..his Spirit went to the Father in Heaven when it departed His body on the cross at His death.

""Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. "

Let me ask you this, When did His body ascend up to the father?

David Taylor---If you want to interpret 'Hades' or 'Hell' as the grave in this context, then no problem or conflict. Jesus' body went into the grave for 3 days. His spirit however, did not die and go into the ground...nor did his spirit cease to exist or become unaware and unconscious.

I believe Scripture teaches that His Spirit went to Hades, just as Jesus said in Luke.

[Alyssa S]

Committing His Spirit into God's hands does not mean have to mean He went to heaven. He simply committed Himself to God's will

Hey Butch... I don't think that's what it means.

At death, a person's spirit returns to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7)... If you look up the Greek, this is the "breath of life." (pneuma). Considering that all spirits return to the Lord at death as Eccl 12 says, then I think it would be safe to conclude that is what's happening here.

My question is if there is a difference between spirit and soul. If ALL living things return to the God... and "ALL" means the wicked as well as the righteous, then it would be natural to think that there IS a difference between soul and spirit.

We cannot get around the fact that God tells us ALL living things have the breath of life... and when ALL living things die, the spirit (breath of life) returns to where it came from. Certainly the wicked are not with God in heaven. So it would seem, to me, that the spirit that's returning is the breath and not soul. So I am led to believe that the soul and spirit are separate.

"In whose hand is the life of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:10)

For me, this is a big one to get around.

Any thoughts David?


God bless,
Alyssa

[My heart's Desire]

I didn't say Paul wouldn't be with Christ, the verse you quoted did not say that to be absent from the body "is" to be present with Christ. I didn't say this was not the case, I said the verse you used did not say that .

Now you confuse me. If we are absent from the body we are at home with the Lord so therefore if we are absent from the body then we must be present with the Lord. I understand you are trying to say that God is everywhere so therefore we don't necessarily have to be in heaven with the Lord but wherever we are He is there. Personally I believe it to mean that if we die and are out of the body then we do go to where the Lord is instead of Him being wherever we are. Paul indeed is then with Christ.

[My heart's Desire]

Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Man of dust from the ground - the body
Genesis 1:24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind.

Man became a living being, the creatures are also said to be living.(nephesh) They have the breath of life. They are conscious.

The difference? Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the bird.......

27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Animals are living as humans are yet they are not made in the image of God.

Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, and to dust you shall return. (the Body)

Both man and animal has breath of life but what makes us different? Must be the spirit. That part gives man a religious nature. Does an animal have a "religious nature"? A nature that desires to find and worship God?

Don't know what these verses prove but there they are.
Oh, and another verse
Heb.4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Seems to be 3 areas here.
dividing the soul and the spirit
both joints and marrow (body?)
thoughts and intentions of HEART.?