Are Christians allowed to eat...

[forum lurker]

Uh, think about this for a minute now forum lurker...

Hey, I've done that for longer than that.

Before Yeshua died for our sins on that horrible cross, people had to keep the law. Now that He has made that great and horrible Sacrifice, we are to go back to what the Israelites were condemned for in the past, namely "everyone did what was right in his own sight?"

Whose definition should we go by in deciding which ones are "less obvious"? If something is written by YHWH and it is "less obvious" in our personal opinions, does that mean we are free to shrug it off?

You are free to do what you want, but I think every single word of the Word is to be taken very seriously. I believe if we are told to do or not do, we are to do or not do, regardless of how it seems to our own always limited and frequently corrupted and self-centered understanding.

L'Ange, I'm not trying to dismiss anything Jesus said. Let me ask you this: Did you follow the law as long as you can remember? Did it always make sense to you not to eat something other people eat? If yes, you are fortunate. For some it takes a lifetime even to get acquainted with Christ. Some of us don't even get that far.

Would you disagree with me, if I proposed that when Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, the emphasis is now in Jesus instead of the law?

Isn't that's the point Paul makes in Gal. 3?

If you follow this train of thought, then the function of the law has changed. It's not anymore a law to salvation, it has now a different function as it still exists, having not been abolished.

So the question is, what is the function? Perhaps it should be discussed in another thread.

The law is definitively worth following, but I'm afraid that's all I can say.

[L'Ange]

Hey, I've done that for longer than that.



L'Ange, I'm not trying to dismiss anything Jesus said. Let me ask you this: Did you follow the law as long as you can remember? Did it always make sense to you not to eat something other people eat? If yes, you are fortunate. For some it takes a lifetime even to get acquainted with Christ. Some of us don't even get that far.

Would you disagree with me, if I proposed that when Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, the emphasis is now in Jesus instead of the law?

Isn't that's the point Paul makes in Gal. 3?

If you follow this train of thought, then the function of the law has changed. It's not anymore a law to salvation, it has now a different function as it still exists, having not been abolished.

So the question is, what is the function? Perhaps it should be discussed in another thread.

The law is definitively worth following, but I'm afraid that's all I can say.

No, I have not followed the law for all my life. I used to laugh at the Word and called it a bunch of dumb myths. After I became a mainstresam Christian, I still did not walk in the light I had as I should have, not by a long shot. Now that I am trying to be more observant, I am still very far from perfect. I have to say, though, that increased understanding of, and obedience to the law, has definitely caused me more blessings inwardly and outwardly, always.

Now that Yeshua, the Messiah, has fulfilled HIs part as our great Sacrifice and High Priest and most High Prophet, we are free to enjoy Him and love Him in ways that generally were not possible before He was born. However, I would not separate Him from the law. He said "If you love Me, keep my Commandments."

I do not see that there is now another function for the law. We are still not to commit adultery, not to bow down to false idols, not to commit homosexual acts (that isn't in the "big 10",but is it not still a law?), etc.
It was always true, as mentioned in the "Old" Testament which Yeshua reiterated as from the Torah and not as something new, that we are to love YHWH with all our hearts and souls and minds and resources and love others as ourselves.

What change did the "Old" Testament say there would be in regard to the law? It said it would be written not on stone but on our hearts. It did not say each heart would get to pick and choose, however! The law that comes into our hearts from Yeshua is the same as it ever was for YHWH changes not. We are just made more alive to it.

[Vhayes]

Who did God say the Law was given to? And why?
V

[keck553]

Hey, I've done that for longer than that.



L'Ange, I'm not trying to dismiss anything Jesus said. Let me ask you this: Did you follow the law as long as you can remember? Did it always make sense to you not to eat something other people eat? If yes, you are fortunate. For some it takes a lifetime even to get acquainted with Christ. Some of us don't even get that far.

Would you disagree with me, if I proposed that when Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, the emphasis is now in Jesus instead of the law?

Isn't that's the point Paul makes in Gal. 3?

If you follow this train of thought, then the function of the law has changed. It's not anymore a law to salvation, it has now a different function as it still exists, having not been abolished.

So the question is, what is the function? Perhaps it should be discussed in another thread.

The law is definitively worth following, but I'm afraid that's all I can say.

We're not discussing salvation here. We are discussing loving God and walking in His ways. Torah was NEVER, EVER given as a means to salvation, and all of us are on that same page, so let's dispense with that standard theological apologetic. It's not applicable.

I understand sanctication is a long process, and I don't think any of us reach 100% in this lifetime, but rather what we commit to and permit God to work in us.

By the way, personaly I think it's the utmost priviledge that God took my punishment with His blood to make me worthy of following Him.

[forum lurker]

We're not discussing salvation here. We are discussing loving God and walking in His ways. Torah was NEVER, EVER given as a means to salvation, and all of us are on that same page, so let's dispense with that standard theological apologetic. It's not applicable.

I understand sanctication is a long process, and I don't think any of us reach 100% in this lifetime, but rather what we commit to and permit God to work in us.

By the way, personaly I think it's the utmost priviledge that God took my punishment with His blood to make me worthy of following Him.

Fair enough. It wasn't clear in the OP whether we should avoid certain stuff to avoid hell or to live the way Jesus intended.

For the latter, certain stuff should be avoided, the law can't be forgotten. That I can wholeheartedly agree with.
For the first option I wouldn't take chances..

I do not see that there is now another function for the law. We are still not to commit adultery, not to bow down to false idols, not to commit homosexual acts (that isn't in the "big 10",but is it not still a law?), etc.
It was always true, as mentioned in the "Old" Testament which Yeshua reiterated as from the Torah and not as something new, that we are to love YHWH with all our hearts and souls and minds and resources and love others as ourselves.

The law is the same, but it should now be in the heart as before it was the manual. Before, it was the engine, now it's only a cylinder helping the engine. Hope this makes a little bit sense.

[L'Ange]

Who did God say the Law was given to? And why?
V

The Law was given to the Israelis who were in Covenant with YHWH. It was given to them to be a mirror to show them their sins. However, it was not just to be a mirror, neither was it an impossible standard! David had to repent for committing adultery. Israel was punished over and over for breaking the Commandments. A few people did actually live holy lives under the Covenant, though. Moses repeated YHWH's promise "If you will walk in my ways and keep my Commandments I will bless you in the land wherever you go forth to possess it."

We are to be grafted in with the body of the true people of Israel, with those who truly are in that Covenant of course, which now is through Messiah. Paul says we are to be grafted into them, does he not? He certainly does not say we are to go off and become a new plant growing independently or that they are to be grafted into the gentiles.

Do you agree that there is neither Greek nor Jew? Do you think "Thou shalt not bow down to other gods" is now obsolete, or that it applies only to the Jews? I'm sure you don't.

Now, let me ask you a few more questions:

Why did Paul tell the newly converted pagans to follow Mosaic food laws?'

Why did Yeshua say "Pray that your flight not be on the Sabbath" for the time after His departing this earth?

Why does Acts 21 show that Paul has been keeping the Law of Moses?

If the "Old" Testament says that one day the Torah will be written in our hearts, not just on stone, then how can it ever go away?

I agree that we are to be grateful beyond measure that Yeshua, through His Blood, washes our sins away and has made us to be new creatures in Him. I am so grateful myself, in fact, that I want to do as He said: "If you love me, keep my Commandments." His Commandments are YHWH's commandments because they are One. YHWH changes not.

Only, as mentioned elsewhere, He has made them stiffer. I am not only not to commit adultery, I am not to lust. I am not only not to murder, I am not to hate. I am to obey Him in all His Commandments, and since He and the Father are One, and since YHWH changes not, I know where to find those Commandments: in the Torah.

Those who do not obey He will tell, "Be gone from me you workers of lawlessness." He does not want us to be lawless!

[kay-gee]

The law has been nailed to the cross once and forever. Dead as a door nail! Colossians 2...read whole chapter for context but specifically 14to end.

Then read Acts 15:28-28. Concerning diet related ordinances being placed on Gentile converts. The Holy Spirit has spoken directly on the matter. I believe it. Case closed!

all the best...

[bosco]

The law has been nailed to the cross once and forever. Dead as a door nail! Colossians 2...read whole chapter for context but specifically 14to end.

Then read Acts 15:28-28. Concerning diet related ordinances being placed on Gentile converts. The Holy Spirit has spoken directly on the matter. I believe it. Case closed!

all the best...

We don't have to talk in terms of "case closed." First, it kinda seems rude. Second, the case is not closed. I challenge you to show me where the "Law" is said to be nailed to the cross. If you go to the "one time" the phrase "nailing it to the cross" exists, you'll see the word "Law" is nowhere to be found. Instead, you'll see man made law, "dogma" being nailed to the cross. The handwriting of ordinances was nailed to the cross, but the Greek word for "ordinances" is Dogma. Dogma is a word that means civil, governmental, or religious law, but is a word never used in association with God's law.

So my apologies, the case is not closed.

Bosco

[kay-gee]

Decrees are the law. What does Sabbath, Festival, and new moons mean to you? The Old Law! DO not taste touch handle...LAW. The judaizers were constantly weighing on the Gentile converts to obey customs which are nder law!
Vs 14 DECREE (NASB) means LAW

all the best...

[kay-gee]

What I meant is that when The HOLY SPIRIT Himself claims omething DIRECTLY in scripture, What further discussion is needed. I can believe what it says to me, or I can read endless computer posts by people trying to say that the Holy Spirit is wrong. So I say simply case closed! for me

all the best...

[reformedct]

Decrees are the law. What does Sabbath, Festival, and new moons me to you? The Old Law. DO not tast touch handle...LAW The judaizers were constantly weighing on the Gentile converts to obey customs which are nder law!

all the best...

this was addressed in acts 15. jews saying gentiles had to be circumcised and follow the laws of moses. Peter said why are you putting them under a yoke that neither we or our fathers were able to bear. James said it was his view NOT TO TROUBLE THE GENTILES. he gave 4 simple commands a couple i belive out of respect for jews the others universal. If they were agreeing that Gentils had to obey all laws James would not have said lets not trouble them and then only give a few commands at that time. all he would have had to do is say yes they are under the law.

ive heard the argument that acts 15 has a number of mistranslations from the original text and was only about circumscision but i dont buy it. there is indeed a general law of God and some special laws He gave to Jews. For example in Romans Paul speaks of people who dont even have written law show they still have the law written in their hearts when they do good. Of course God has not written on every heart observe Passover lol He is talking about basic laws of morality.

[bosco]

Decrees are the law. What does Sabbath, Festival, and new moons mean to you? The Old Law! DO not taste touch handle...LAW. The judaizers were constantly weighing on the Gentile converts to obey customs which are nder law!
Vs 14 DECREE (NASB) means LAW

all the best...

Kaygee, the case can be closed for you, no problem my friend. But on your way out the door, grab a Strong's concordance, look up the word ordinance, you'll find dogma, and then tell me if it has anything to do with God's laws? For you to say God's laws are nailed to the cross is to say that we can now serve other gods, make idols, steal, murder, et.al. That just isn't the case. Messiah said that whoever does and teaches the Torah will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. He said those who don't do and teach against Torah, will be called the least. He said as long as earth is here, every jot and tittle of the Torah will be as well. So you have to make a conscience decision, did Messiah speak incorrectly or are you mis-interpreting the word ordinance?

Bosco

[bosco]

this was addressed in acts 15. jews saying gentiles had to be circumcised and follow the laws of moses. Peter said why are you putting them under a yoke that neither we or our fathers were able to bear. James said it was his view NOT TO TROUBLE THE GENTILES. he gave 4 simple commands a couple i belive out of respect for jews the others universal. If they were agreeing that Gentils had to obey all laws James would not have said lets not trouble them and then only give a few commands at that time. all he would have had to do is say yes they are under the law.

ive heard the argument that acts 15 has a number of mistranslations from the original text and was only about circumscision but i dont buy it. there is indeed a general law of God and some special laws He gave to Jews. For example in Romans Paul speaks of people who dont even have written law show they still have the law written in their hearts when they do good. Of course God has not written on every heart observe Passover lol He is talking about basic laws of morality.

At least keep it in context, Acts 15 was dealing with Jews saying Gentiles needed to be circumcised in order "to obtain salvation." That is not true and what caused Paul to return to Jerusalem.

Bosco

[bosco]

What I meant is that when The HOLY SPIRIT Himself claims omething DIRECTLY in scripture, What further discussion is needed. I can believe what it says to me, or I can read endless computer posts by people trying to say that the Holy Spirit is wrong. So I say simply case closed! for me

all the best...

Kaygee, just wondering if you reviewed: http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...0&postcount=99

If and when you do, can you share where this is dealing with food? Thanks.

Bosco

[reformedct]

Kaygee, the case can be closed for you, no problem my friend. But on your way out the door, grab a Strong's concordance, look up the word ordinance, you'll find dogma, and then tell me if it has anything to do with God's laws? For you to say God's laws are nailed to the cross is to say that we can now serve other gods, make idols, steal, murder, et.al. That just isn't the case. Messiah said that whoever does and teaches the Torah will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. He said those who don't do and teach against Torah, will be called the least. He said as long as earth is here, every jot and tittle of the Torah will be as well. So you have to make a conscience decision, did Messiah speak incorrectly or are you mis-interpreting the word ordinance?

Bosco

obviously no one is arguing against the Torah as if it doesnt exist we are disagreeing with your interpretation of how the Torah is utilized for Gentlile Christians. we dont believe that we are under every law in the Torah as an obligation, epspecially concerning temple laws and stoning people etc. i belive God had that institution set up for a time to teach people about the gravity of sin and the priesthood was there to let the people know how sinful they were having to continually bring sacrifices. i uphod the law but not in the sense that we are still under the obligation to perform every command in the OT including the ones about your beard lol