Mat 24 question for pre-tribbers

***rom826*** · Mar 14th 2009, 09:49 PM

Mat 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The pre-tribbers I have spoken to tell me this is not talking about the rapture. If it is not speaking about the rapture, what is it talking about? Who are these elect? And where are they being gathered to?

***quiet dove*** · Mar 14th 2009, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by rom826

Mat 24:31

The pre-tribbers I have spoken to tell me this is not talking about the rapture. If it is not speaking about the rapture, what is it talking about? Who are these elect? And where are they being gathered to?

It's those in Christ Jesus upon His Second Advent. It goes with Matt 25:31-34

***rom826*** · Mar 14th 2009, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by quiet dove

It's those in Christ Jesus upon His Second Advent. It goes with Matt 25:31-34

Where are they "gather together" to? Do they also meet the lord in the air and this is a second rapture or are they gather together to some where on earth?

**boangry** · Mar 15th 2009, 01:46 AM

Who are these elect? A veiw I find possible is that the elect are the Jews, that have survived the trib and who are dispersed

Isaiah 65:9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And my servants shall dwell there.

And where are they being gathered to? Into Israel the promised land.

I also think it goes with matt 25:31-34 except here it is the nations(gentiles) gathered, to see whom goes into the millenium kingdom

***Cyberseeker*** · Mar 15th 2009, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by rom826

Where are they "gather together" to? Do they also meet the lord in the air and this is a second rapture or are they gather together to some where on earth?

No, their feet don't actually leave the ground. They have to travel by ship or train.

... not

***quiet dove*** · Mar 15th 2009, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by rom826

Where are they "gather together" to? Do they also meet the lord in the air and this is a second rapture or are they gather together to some where on earth?

I would think they are gathered to Jerusalem. The reason I say that is because Jerusalem belongs to God and is the holy city. I believe scripture supports that Christ will rule from Zion (upon the earth) for the time frame of the Millennial. To me it just makes logical sense that the King, upon Davids throne, in Jerusalem, where a temple would have to be, they would be gathered to that location.

No, I don't believe it is a second rapture. And how the angels will get them there I have no idea. It says they will be gathered by angels so I just figure the angels know what they are doing..LOL. These "elect" are those who have faith in Christ and possibly referring to Jews, but that is not to exclude there will also be Gentiles saved as the nations are gathered and the sheep and goats are separated, but I guess that is another topic.

I believe that Zech and Ezekiel give more detail, among other passages in Isaiah and Jeremiah, regarding that time.

**yoSAMite** · Mar 15th 2009, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by rom826

Mat 24:31

The pre-tribbers I have spoken to tell me this is not talking about the rapture. If it is not speaking about the rapture, what is it talking about? Who are these elect? And where are they being gathered to?

I believe this is concerning the 2nd coming of Christ. I don't know that rapture concerns those in the "heavens." Interesting note, 1 Tim 5:21 refers to "elect angels."

They are coming with Christ who is going to do battle with satans army.

**cross crusader** · Mar 15th 2009, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by Khoolaid

I believe this is concerning the 2nd coming of Christ. I don't know that rapture concerns those in the "heavens." Interesting note, 1 Tim 5:21 refers to "elect angels."

They are coming with Christ who is going to do battle with satans army.

isnt the battle over when Christ comes back?

***jeffweeder*** · Mar 15th 2009, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by rom826

Mat 24:31

The pre-tribbers I have spoken to tell me this is not talking about the rapture. If it is not speaking about the rapture, what is it talking about? Who are these elect? And where are they being gathered to?

Of course it is talking about the rapture

Paul ,in 1 rap 4--i mean 1 thess 4, speaks the Lords own word, and even uses the sound of the Trumpet like Jesus did to assure his readers that he was speaking the lords own word on his promise to come back and get us.
. His further teaching is that this trumpet raises the dead and gathers the whole congregation--whether dead or alive.
We rise together in the air, and are gather from one end of the sky to the other.
We are Gathered to him, that were he is we may be also...and he is at the right hand of our Father.---JN 14

***David2*** · Mar 15th 2009, 08:32 AM

I would think they are gathered to Jerusalem. The reason I say that is because Jerusalem belongs to God and is the holy city. I believe scripture supports that Christ will rule from Zion (upon the earth) for the time frame of the Millennial. To me it just makes logical sense that the King, upon Davids throne, in Jerusalem, where a temple would have to be, they would be gathered to that location.

No, I don't believe it is a second rapture. And how the angels will get them there I have no idea. It says they will be gathered by angels so I just figure the angels know what they are doing..LOL. These "elect" are those who have faith in Christ and possibly referring to Jews, but that is not to exclude there will also be Gentiles saved as the nations are gathered and the sheep and goats are separated, but I guess that is another topic.

I believe that Zech and Ezekiel give more detail, among other passages in Isaiah and Jeremiah, regarding that time.

Quiet dove,
You are right. What you say is consistent with prophecy throughout the Bible. Israel is the elect nation and they will be gathered at the second coming, together with those that associate with them. Remember prophecy tells us that the nations will go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of tabernacles together with the nation. And also, the nations will follow a Jew to be lead to the place of blessing.

We must remember that the second coming has special meaning for Israel. Jesus wil return at that very hour when Israel is about to be defeated by the Gentile armies (Zach 12). He will rescue His people and they will see Him and recognise that He is their Messiah (Zech 12:9-14). Their will be a national repentance, national cleansing under Messiah.

We must not confuse the trumpet of Matt. 24:31 with the trump of the Lord in Thess. 4:16. "His elect" here in Matt. 24:31 refers to the people on earth (after the rapture), Jews and Geniles, who have trusted Christ and been saved. In the OT the movements of Israel have beem announced by trumpet (Num. 10; Joel 2). Israel has been scattered people for many centuries. The angels will gater Israel with trumpets just as the priests did in OT times.

***quiet dove*** · Mar 15th 2009, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by David2

Quiet dove,
You are right. What you say is consistent with prophecy throughout the Bible. Israel is the elect nation and they will be gathered at the second coming, together with those that associate with them. Remember prophecy tells us that the nations will go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of tabernacles together with the nation. And also, the nations will follow a Jew to be lead to the place of blessing.

We must remember that the second coming has special meaning for Israel. Jesus wil return at that very hour when Israel is about to be defeated by the Gentile armies (Zach 12). He will rescue His people and they will see Him and recognise that He is their Messiah (Zech 12:9-14). Their will be a national repentance, national cleansing under Messiah.

We must not confuse the trumpet of Matt. 24:31 with the trump of the Lord in Thess. 4:16. "His elect" here in Matt. 24:31 refers to the people on earth (after the rapture), Jews and Geniles, who have trusted Christ and been saved. In the OT the movements of Israel have beem announced by trumpet (Num. 10; Joel 2). Israel has been scattered people for many centuries. The angels will gather Israel with trumpets just as the priests did in OT times.

I never associated those two things, thanks, something to think about.

***rom826*** · Mar 15th 2009, 08:19 PM

Thanks for the responses. It's definitely giving me some things to think about.

***rom826*** · Mar 15th 2009, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by David2

Quiet dove,
You are right. What you say is consistent with prophecy throughout the Bible. Israel is the elect nation and they will be gathered at the second coming, together with those that associate with them. Remember prophecy tells us that the nations will go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of tabernacles together with the nation. And also, the nations will follow a Jew to be lead to the place of blessing.

We must remember that the second coming has special meaning for Israel. Jesus wil return at that very hour when Israel is about to be defeated by the Gentile armies (Zach 12). He will rescue His people and they will see Him and recognise that He is their Messiah (Zech 12:9-14). Their will be a national repentance, national cleansing under Messiah.

We must not confuse the trumpet of Matt. 24:31 with the trump of the Lord in Thess. 4:16. "His elect" here in Matt. 24:31 refers to the people on earth (after the rapture), Jews and Geniles, who have trusted Christ and been saved. In the OT the movements of Israel have beem announced by trumpet (Num. 10; Joel 2). Israel has been scattered people for many centuries. The angels will gater Israel with trumpets just as the priests did in OT times.

Where in the old testament does it talk about the priests gathering Israel together with trumpets.

***quiet dove*** · Mar 15th 2009, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by rom826

Where in the old testament does it talk about the priests gathering Israel together with trumpets.

I can't give the verses off the top of my head, but in the instructions to Moses and the Law. Should be in with that somewhere.

Sorry, thats probably not helping a lot.

**sudds** · Mar 15th 2009, 10:05 PM

Mat 24 question for pre-tribbers

Mat 24:31
Quote:
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The pre-tribbers I have spoken to tell me this is not talking about the rapture. If it is not speaking about the rapture, what is it talking about? Who are these elect? And where are they being gathered to?

This is talking about the saints who lived and died before Christ's resurrection. There was some sort of resurrection of these people. We have the first hint in Daniel 7.

It took the blood of Jesus to save those people (saints living and dying before the cross) as it does us. When they died, they may have been in a saved state but not saved. Yet, when Jesus was resurrected, they were too. In a spiritual sense, we are resurrected at baptism.

Hebrews 11:39 These (OT saints) were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised (perfection).
Hebrews 11:40. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.