What is the best demonimation? Catholic? Protestant? Moved from BC

[starlight777]

I have always been confused by this. Especially between Catholicism and Protestantism. Which one is the right path?

Also, what about Orthodoxy or the Mormons?

Indeed Christianity is the right path.So Catholic,protestant and orthodox are same with just few differences.And About Mormons?Indeed they are non Christian.

[Jerome1]

It would be useful if you would provide references so I can know exactly what you are talking about.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

There are to many to give, start with the implementation of the Levetical preisthood and the instructions regarding the Arc of the Covenant, and the temple to house it in. It is quite clear that Jews had a centralized religious heirarchy with the high priest at the top, and the temple as the visible structure were their sacrifice's and worship took place.

[decrumpit]

Look up some of the ECF's opinions reagrding contraception, it might give you some food for thought.

I have. And it made me convinced that the doctrine has not been immutable!

Augustine harshly condemned the INTENT to remove children from sex. He essentially condemned a form of NFP (natural family planning) which sought to use a woman's natural cycle to have intercourse when it was unlikely she would conceive. The CC now allows this.

Furthermore, the CC considers contraception to be intrinsically evil. That is, there is no circumstance where it could be morally justified. I don't understand their reason for condemning it.

There are to many to give, start with the implementation of the Levetical preisthood and the instructions regarding the Arc of the Covenant, and the temple to house it in. It is quite clear that Jews had a centralized religious heirarchy with the high priest at the top, and the temple as the visible structure were their sacrifice's and worship took place.

Jesus came to fulfill Judaism, not create a new variant!

[notuptome]

There are to many to give, start with the implementation of the Levetical preisthood and the instructions regarding the Arc of the Covenant, and the temple to house it in. It is quite clear that Jews had a centralized religious heirarchy with the high priest at the top, and the temple as the visible structure were their sacrifice's and worship took place.

How did that work out? What was it's purpose? Why?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[kay-gee]

I'm not looking to go anywhere with it, i'm looking for an admittance that God's covenant with the Jews included a hierarchical visible Church.

But they never had anyone at the top claiming to be Gods representative on earth. In fact that idea was so foreign to them that they considered anyone making that kind of claim as blasphemous. Ergo...the Crucifixion of Christ.

all the best...

[Jerome1]

Augustine harshly condemned the INTENT to remove children from sex.

Remove children or remove the intent for the possibility of children?

Jesus came to fulfill Judaism, not create a new variant!

Paul tells us in Romans that the Old Covenant foreshadowed the New.

How did that work out? What was it's purpose? Why?

You know about the high priest entering the Holie of Holies and making atonement for the sins of the people through animal sacrifice? That was just one of it's purposes.

But they never had anyone at the top claiming to be Gods representative on earth. In fact that idea was so foreign to them that they considered anyone making that kind of claim as blasphemous. Ergo...the Crucifixion of Christ.

all the best...

Actually they did, in the Talmud it states that the high priests decisions when he consulted the Urim and Thummim were irrevocable, which in other words means that the people understood that he had received a divine revelation from God. It even states that the prophets decision could be revoked but not the high priests. The Urim and the Thummim fell out of use i believe, but that did not stop Caiaphas(the high priest) in John11:49-52 from still receiving a divine revelation regarding the purpose of Christ.

[decrumpit]

Remove children or remove the intent for the possibility of children?

To separate sex from children in any way. His accusations were against those who basically tried to do NFP. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Paul tells us in Romans that the Old Covenant foreshadowed the New.

True, but Jesus fulfilled the prophecies in a different way. He did not re-institute sacrifice nor establish a hierarchy. The sacrifice was paid and all believers are priests.

[notuptome]

You know about the high priest entering the Holie of Holies and making atonement for the sins of the people through animal sacrifice? That was just one of it's purposes.

I also know the ultimate end was the corruption of the priesthood and the sacrifices. Even the hierarchy that God established was corrupted by the sinfulness of the men involved in it.

The NT church, visible, is no better. Christ is the true head of the church, invisible, and only He is above corruption. Christ did not establish the rcc with all its hierarchy. Christ only left us with two ordaninces, baptism and communion. Paul gives us pastors and deacons in the churches. Our unity is found in Christ not in man made contrivances like denominations and synods etc.

For the cause of Christ.
Roger

[Jerome1]

To separate sex from children in any way. His accusations were against those who basically tried to do NFP. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Your are going to have to link me the quotes from Augustine, but even then Humanae Vitae is more authoritative that a private opinion expressed by Augustine.

True, but Jesus fulfilled the prophecies in a different way. He did not re-institute sacrifice nor establish a hierarchy. The sacrifice was paid and all believers are priests.

And therein lies the difference between Catholicism and protestanism.

I also know the ultimate end was the corruption of the priesthood and the sacrifices. Even the hierarchy that God established was corrupted by the sinfulness of the men involved in it.

Can i ask you then why you think Jesus told the crowds to do everything the scribes and Pharisees taught them if they were corrupt(Matthew23:2)?

[notuptome]

Can i ask you then why you think Jesus told the crowds to do everything the scribes and Pharisees taught them if they were corrupt(Matthew23:2)?

Did you read vs 3? what ever they bid you observe, observe and do; but do not after their works; for they say and do not. I read Mat 23:1-12 as an inditement against the Pharisaical rcc if ever there was one. Binding burdens on others and not lifting a finger themselves. Loving the honor of men. Calling themselves father. Usurping the office of Christ. I'd better stop before I become any more angry with rome. No point in jacking up the old BP.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Jerome1]

Did you read vs 3? what ever they bid you observe, observe and do; but do not after their works; for they say and do not. I read Mat 23:1-12 as an inditement against the Pharisaical rcc if ever there was one. Binding burdens on others and not lifting a finger themselves. Loving the honor of men. Calling themselves father. Usurping the office of Christ. I'd better stop before I become any more angry with rome. No point in jacking up the old BP.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ofcourse i know verse three, my argument wasn't that the scribes and Pharisees were not corrupt, some of them clearly were, my argument was that their teachings weren't corrupt or Christ would not have told the crowds to, "do whatever they teach and follow it."

Your earlier argument was that they were corrupted, but clearly what they taught wasn't, or are you saying Christ was giving people permission to sin?

[notuptome]

Ofcourse i know verse three, my argument wasn't that the scribes and Pharisees were not corrupt, some of them clearly were, my argument was that their teachings weren't corrupt or Christ would not have told the crowds to, "do whatever they teach and follow it."

Your earlier argument was that they were corrupted, but clearly what they taught wasn't, or are you saying Christ was giving people permission to sin?

The word of God was not diminished by the corrupt temple hierarchy. The scribes and Pharisees were corrupt often teaching profane traditions of men in place of the law of Moses and the Prophets. The scribes and Pharisees used the word of God to control the people they themselves did not obey Gods word. Even so the people were responsible to God to obey the word.

A person who is in the rcc is not absolved of his or her personal responsibility to obey Christ. The fact that rome teaches salvation by works of baptism, confirmation, communion, confession, marriage, papal alligence and last rites, claiming they are means of grace when they are clearly works especially the way the rcc applies them does not relieve the individuals need to trust Christ personally and not the church or the pope for salvation. If a person claims I did all the rcc told me is that not enough to enter heaven? The answer must be no. Jesus is the way the truth and the life not the rcc.

I like the hierarchy Christ established. Believer, Christ, Father.
Local Church hierarchy. believer, deacon (servant), pastor(teacher), Christ, Father.

For the cause of Christ.
Roger

[Jerome1]

The word of God was not diminished by the corrupt temple hierarchy. The scribes and Pharisees were corrupt often teaching profane traditions of men in place of the law of Moses and the Prophets. The scribes and Pharisees used the word of God to control the people they themselves did not obey Gods word. Even so the people were responsible to God to obey the word.

A person who is in the rcc is not absolved of his or her personal responsibility to obey Christ. The fact that rome teaches salvation by works of baptism, confirmation, communion, confession, marriage, papal alligence and last rites, claiming they are means of grace when they are clearly works especially the way the rcc applies them does not relieve the individuals need to trust Christ personally and not the church or the pope for salvation. If a person claims I did all the rcc told me is that not enough to enter heaven? The answer must be no. Jesus is the way the truth and the life not the rcc.

I like the hierarchy Christ established. Believer, Christ, Father.
Local Church hierarchy. believer, deacon (servant), pastor(teacher), Christ, Father.

For the cause of Christ.
Roger

Then you are not very familiar with what the Church of Rome teaches, because it teaches that God is not bound by the Sacraments.

[notuptome]

Then you are not very familiar with what the Church of Rome teaches, because it teaches that God is not bound by the Sacraments.

You're the first catholic to tell me that God will save someone who has not been baptised by the rcc. Again most catholics I have met rely on Mat 16:19 to bind God to the will of the pope.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Jerome1]

You're the first catholic to tell me that God will save someone who has not been baptised by the rcc. Again most catholics I have met rely on Mat 16:19 to bind God to the will of the pope.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

A baptism can be valid outside the Catholic Church using the trinitarian formula, there is also baptism by blood and baptism by desire. The whole papal infallibility thing can't really be discussed on here.