What is the best demonimation? Catholic? Protestant? Moved from BC

[notuptome]

A baptism can be valid outside the Catholic Church using the trinitarian formula, there is also baptism by blood and baptism by desire. The whole papal infallibility thing can't really be discussed on here.

But the sacrament of baptism is required even if it's only the desire to be baptised?

What must a roman catholic due to be absolutely 100% certain of obtaining heaven? What would be the very least requirement the church would deem necessary?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Jerome1]

But the sacrament of baptism is required even if it's only the desire to be baptised?

What must a roman catholic due to be absolutely 100% certain of obtaining heaven? What would be the very least requirement the church would deem necessary?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes it is required, baptism or the desire thereof. I was debating with another Catholic over this and he hated me using the words, "minimum or least requirement," that was the term i also used incidently. I changed it to absolutely neccesary.

I don't think anyone can be 100% certain of obtaining heaven, some people are given to self deception, and as the Gospel tells us in Matthew7:21-23 the Lord will dismiss evil doers because they were self deceived.

[notuptome]

Yes it is required, baptism or the desire thereof. I was debating with another Catholic over this and he hated me using the words, "minimum or least requirement," that was the term i also used incidently. I changed it to absolutely neccesary.

What then does the "absolutely necessary" requirement specifically entail? Where does grace fit into the romanist plan for salvation?

I don't think anyone can be 100% certain of obtaining heaven, some people are given to self deception, and as the Gospel tells us in Matthew7:21-23 the Lord will dismiss evil doers because they were self deceived.

Are you taking the position that those who claim to know they are saved, essentially a protestant position relevant to romanism, are false professors as described in Mat 7:21-23??

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that ye may know that ye have eternal life. Sounds pretty certain to me. Does not sound like God wants us to be in doubt. Or was John deceived?

All this kinda lends to the idea that rome refuses to take Christ off the cross and acknowledge the victory has been won. The cross is empty and the grave is empty. Death and sin have been vanquished. Why does rome keep Christ on the cross and hold Him up to continuing shame?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Jerome1]

What then does the "absolutely necessary" requirement specifically entail? Where does grace fit into the romanist plan for salvation?

Don't use the word, "romanist," it's condescending.

Every good thing that draws us towards God is a grace, but he doesn't force us to accept it, there must be an act of the will on our part when responding to God's grace.

Are you taking the position that those who claim to know they are saved, essentially a protestant position relevant to romanism, are false professors as described in Mat 7:21-23??

I wouldn't even say it is a protestant position, i would say it is a position held by some protestants.

[notuptome]

Don't use the word, "romanist," it's condescending.

Is it inaccurate? After all condescending is oft seen as an inflamatory description. I may have considered papist as more condescending in nature. However, I assure you I have no malice toward any man and certainly not toward you in particular.

Every good thing that draws us towards God is a grace, but he doesn't force us to accept it, there must be an act of the will on our part when responding to God's grace.

"A grace" is an interesting phrase. How many "graces" are there in roman catholic theology? Are those "good things" the sacraments? The ones you told me were non binding. I suppose by your definition chocolate cake may qualify if we feel it draws us closer to God. I've tasted some that was positively divine.

I wouldn't even say it is a protestant position, i would say it is a position held by some protestants.

If I read 1John 5:13 correctly it is a biblical position God wants us to have. Eternal life by God's grace (singular) is a current posession culminating in a future glorification. I won't be offended being called a biblical protestant any more than being called a biblical Christian.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Jerome1]

"A grace" is an interesting phrase. How many "graces" are there in roman catholic theology? Are those "good things" the sacraments? The ones you told me were non binding. I suppose by your definition chocolate cake may qualify if we feel it draws us closer to God. I've tasted some that was positively divine.

Everthing that draws us closer to God is a grace, even the air we breath is a grace. Yes Catholics believe that God gave us the Sacraments as external methods of grace to draw us closer to him.

If I read 1John 5:13 correctly it is a biblical position God wants us to have. Eternal life by God's grace (singular) is a current posession culminating in a future glorification. I won't be offended being called a biblical protestant any more than being called a biblical Christian.

Yes but this doesn't discount the fact that there are people who are self deceived or who profess christianity but are not actually christians(you shall know them by their fruits). How does one keep themselves from being self deceived, by keeping a clear conscience. The word, "conscience," must be one of the most used words in the New Testament.

[Jerome1]

I just thought about something else about the belief in OSAS. I was watching a Muslim channel before because they were debating christianity and the christian pastor was trying to explain the idea of OSAS, as you can imagine the Muslim's were pretty confused. One of them asked, not verbatim, "so i can believe in Jesus and go out and do anything i want, and it won't matter i will attain salvation." The pastor basically replied that if you truly believed in Christ it should be evident by your fruits. Needless to say he confused the hell out of the audience and i thought he did a very poor job of evangelizing.

[decrumpit]

I just thought about something else about the belief in OSAS. I was watching a Muslim channel before because they were debating christianity and the christian pastor was trying to explain the idea of OSAS, as you can imagine the Muslim's were pretty confused. One of them asked, not verbatim, "so i can believe in Jesus and go out and do anything i want, and it won't matter i will attain salvation." The pastor basically replied that if you truly believed in Christ it should be evident by your fruits. Needless to say he confused the hell out of the audience and i thought he did a very poor job of evangelizing.

There's quite a bit of debate, although OSAS can be easily answered through "What is giving one's life to Christ and trusting him as savior"?

But to answer the Muslim, when one becomes Christian he must train himself not to even desire evil, although it will happen. So a real Christian would realize that he is free, but when seeing the depth of God's forgiveness still does not want to sin. We will always sin, given our earthly home. Faith's goal is living a life of good works because of faith. God cannot ever let someone into heaven based on works alone. At least that last bit we agree on!

[notuptome]

I just thought about something else about the belief in OSAS. I was watching a Muslim channel before because they were debating christianity and the christian pastor was trying to explain the idea of OSAS, as you can imagine the Muslim's were pretty confused. One of them asked, not verbatim, "so i can believe in Jesus and go out and do anything i want, and it won't matter i will attain salvation." The pastor basically replied that if you truly believed in Christ it should be evident by your fruits. Needless to say he confused the hell out of the audience and i thought he did a very poor job of evangelizing.

Perfect example of why one does not discuss spiritual matters with unbelievers. To discuss doctrines with unbelievers is to cast pearls before the swine.

Unbelievers cannot receive the things of the Spirit they are folishness to them. Give unbelievers the gospel. Until they are converted they can receive nothing else. 1 Cor 2:14

1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Jerome1]

Perfect example of why one does not discuss spiritual matters with unbelievers. To discuss doctrines with unbelievers is to cast pearls before the swine.

Unbelievers cannot receive the things of the Spirit they are folishness to them. Give unbelievers the gospel. Until they are converted they can receive nothing else. 1 Cor 2:14

1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Then how do you suppose unbelievers become believers?

[notuptome]

Then how do you suppose unbelievers become believers?

Preaching the gospel. 1 Cor 15:1-4 How do you suppose they will get saved?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Jerome1]

Preaching the gospel. 1 Cor 15:1-4 How do you suppose they will get saved?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

There is a contradiction in your exegesis, don't preach the gospel to unbelievers, preach the gospel to unbelievers?

[notuptome]

There is a contradiction in your exegesis, don't preach the gospel to unbelievers, preach the gospel to unbelievers?

I believe that the contradiction is in your convenient understanding of what the gospel is. If we look at what Paul is describing as the gospel message: A. Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. B. Christ was buried according to the scriptures. C. Christ rose again the third day according to the scriptures. 1 Cor 15:1-4

Unbelievers cannot understand sanctification matters because they have not been born again by the power of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is necessary before one can comprehend the greater truths of the word of God. One must come to the cross before one can travel the road the cross reveals.

Islamics do not believe in the diety of Jesus Christ. Therefore they are not able to understand how a man could become saved and have no desire to continue in sin even though from a legal perspective he could. To the unregenerate mind it would be a great thing to be able to sin without recompense. To the born again believer such conduct would be a great offense to the Christ that redeemed them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[decrumpit]

1 Cor. 1:8 seems to be saying that the gospel (death, resurrection, salvation from Christ) is foolishness to those who do not believe. If one is explaining a point of Christian doctrine, it hardly seems reasonable to tell people that they can only understand it when they become saved. Accepting the gospel is the hard part. Doctrines are really quite easy compared to living a Christ-like life.

This being said, Christians believe their doctrine to be reasonable in all forms at any time. When people refuse to give information until a later time when someone "understands" it better, it's brainwashing, pure and simple. Muslims do this to get converts, especially among westerners.

[notuptome]

1 Cor. 1:8 seems to be saying that the gospel (death, resurrection, salvation from Christ) is foolishness to those who do not believe. If one is explaining a point of Christian doctrine, it hardly seems reasonable to tell people that they can only understand it when they become saved. Accepting the gospel is the hard part. Doctrines are really quite easy compared to living a Christ-like life.

This being said, Christians believe their doctrine to be reasonable in all forms at any time. When people refuse to give information until a later time when someone "understands" it better, it's brainwashing, pure and simple. Muslims do this to get converts, especially among westerners.

It is pointless to explain Christian doctrines to those who are not Christian. Jesus says in John 6:44 No man can come to Me except the Father, Who hath sent Me, draw him. Without the work of the Holy Spirit to enlighten the soul in darkness they cannot hear. God heareth not sinners John 9:31

The sinner is to be instructed from God's word as to how to be saved and the need for salvation. John 16:8-11 reveals the work of the Holy Spirit. 1. Reproving of sin. 2. Reproving of righteousness. 3. Reproving of judgment

John 3:3 Except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. John 1:9-10 Jesus is the True Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.

If I only had a dime for every time I heard a sinner say "I tried to read the bible one time but I could not understand all those thee's and thou's and all those begat's." The mysteries of the Word of God are not open to those who do not posess the guide Christ left for those who love Him. The simple plan of salvation sounds illogical to those whom the Holy Spirit has not illuminated. Why would a sinless Christ have to die for those who sinned? Logic dictates that the criminal pays for his own deeds and not another who is innocent.

You can not feed a T-bone to a child who can only tolerate milk. I do not conceal the truth. Christ was direct and to the point when He preached. Ignoring the questions of the Pharisees and Saducees, who were endeavoring to entrap the Lord, and illuminating the underlying sin problem.

For the cause of Christ
Roger