Why doubt OSAS?

[copper25]

Ephesians 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

God has the ultimate foreknowledge. He knows what happens from the beginning to the end. Not only that, but it is of his will anything happens, because he allows it. He is sovereign over all time, all things. When He calls, elects, picks a person to do his working in, to circumcise their heart, (Colossians 2:11, Romans 3:30), to give them a new Spirit and a new heart (Jeremiah 32:39-40, Ezekiel 11:19)(Ezekiel 36:26), that births in that person a new mentality, one that loves and desires to walk in God's law, his precepts, his ways (Ezekiel 36:27)(Ezekiel 11:21), do you think that a person that is TRULY saved is going to slip into a life of perdition once he was been transformed by the Grace of God; or better yet after reading a verse like Jeremiah 32:41, keeping in mind that this is God speaking and saying this, "Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.", that God will not do everything in is power (which is limitless) to correct his children, those that are really his?

Hebrew 12:11 states "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous"

Those that claim God, but can act like the world, be in a continuous state of carnality and rebellion, yet call God their father; they lie and should be very afraid. Psalm 94:12 says "Blessed is the man whom thou chasenest". Why because those whom he chastens, he loves: tough love is a demonstration of the magnitude of love God has for us. We and those who are His true children, he will not let slip into perdition: Why, because (Psalm 23:4) "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me". If we get out of line, God will race to correct us and show us the error of our ways, we get convicted in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. But we do not stay of the narrow way! Those that fall away and never come back are not his children, but rather children of disobedience, children of satan. Why, because they never got corrected, convicted by God's Spirit, but rather just drifted away into perdition.

These I speak of, who do not come back, were not really even Christian from the beginning

Matthew 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

We got millions upon millions confessing Christian, but who when you look at their life, the totality of their life and the way they live, the habits they have, the lack of true reverence toward God, their love for the world, they are not Christian. They say God with their lips, but say that God doesn't exist with their life and the way they choose to live.

We got millions upon millions confessing Christian, but don't even want to seek God, nor get to know his word. Romans 3:11) "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." The natural (or unconverted man) is not in love with God, doesn't want to seek his truth, thus (Romans 3:17) "the way of peace have they not known" and (Romans 3:18) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

We got millions upon millions confessing Christian living like there is no, absolutely no law to obey given and that proceeded out of the mouth of God. In the New King James version, Matthew 7:23 states "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" Thus this is concluded, those that practice lawlessness shall perish at the hand of Almighty God. They will be ruined eternally, many of whom confessed Christian, but did not know, or better yet, they did not follow the narrow way. Why, because they were never were really converted, they never received from God that new heart, that new spirit, that would make them love and follow after the narrow way, so they live abroad; thinking ALL THEIR LIFE, confessing "LORD, LORD", that even though their life showed no change, not a hint of conversion (because they never familiarized themselves with the doctrine, the truth of regeneration), that they are going to heaven. (John 3:20) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light". Many dwell in darkness yet acknowledge that Christ is the way, but never come to him, nor abide in Him, and for that matter were not his, nor a child of God!

Romans 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Isn't it interesting, according to the text, the word of God, there is "now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus", Thus concluding that ALL who are in the path of destruction, on the road to hell and damnation, are not his. Can a person be a child of God and yet still go hell when the scripture contradicts it. No, simply no.

People love the first part of this verse and yet cut the last part in analyzing, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." These are they who HAVE BEEN converted, who HAVE BEEN given a new heart of flesh, who HAVE BEEN given a new spirit. The flesh cannot walk in the Spirit, meaning that the unconverted CANNOT walk in the ways of the Spirit. ONLY the children of God, those that are converted, and changed, and transformed into a new creature can successful walk in the Spiritual way and all others WILL fail! Thus concluding that a CHILD OF GOD IS one who was transformed, IS one that is corrected by and by all means (Jeremiah 32:41) is kept on the narrow path and IS one that does not dwell on the broad path.

We have millions upon millions confessing Christian, claiming to be a child of God, but ARE NOT BECAUSE THEY WHERE NEVER EVER BEFORE IN THEIR LIVES WERE CONVERTED AND TRANSFORMED BY THE POWER OF GOD.

2 Peter 1:10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

This is a statement that MANY fail to heed, we only got one life, one chance because Christ died once, and for all.

Brethren, this is the time, let us examine ourselves further and make our calling sure. Millions upon millions are claiming Christ but are dead to him, not alive in Him. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation"?

Hebrews 4:16) Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heed the counsel of the Lord

[uric3]

I could give plenty of reasons as to why you should doubt OSAS... however this is yet another thread of OSAS vs NOSAS and it will be and endless debate where no one wins. However for the sake that I think I should uphold my believes I will respond with a few verses.

Lets look at one of the last ones you mentioned

2 Peter 1:10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

You highlight in bold about making your calling and electoin sure... yet you irgnore the last part. "For if you do these things you will never fall" Why would he mention IF you do these things you will never fall. Why not say "you will never fall" because IF you don't follow these things you will fall.

Also note Rev 3:5 "5'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

I am sure we all know from Rev 20:12-ff we see that whoever was not found in the Lambs book of life was cast into the lake of fire... Seems like in Rev 3:5 we have people written in that book and Christ is saying IF(theres that word again) you over come then I won't erase your name. IF you overcome then your golden.. IF not then well its gonna get earsed just like it got written in there.

Also note Matt 7:21-23 we have people who believed in God, done works for God, etc... and still was not accepted on the last day...

I think those along are enough to doubt OSAS... I hvae more that I could use however due to the nature of these threads and how it almost seems unfruitful I'll probably not post any more.. but there is reason to doubt OSAS and vice versea... however I'll stick to NOSAS since I think the Bible supports it.

[copper25]

John 12:48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Two functions

2 timothy 3:16-17)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

To persevere His children, and to judge the world that did not heed.

[moonglow]

I don't believe God forces us to stay with Him if we don't want too. I do believe a Christian can willfully and knowingly turn their backs on God. It doesn't happen by accident...no one can lose their salvation like lost car key..they willingly reject the gift given. Its a terrible thing to see..and not the same as a back sliden Christian, but it does happen.

http://www.christiancourier.com/penp...icReflects.htm


Here is a link about "Charles Templeton was one of the most popular sectarian evangelists in the nation. He was a bosom buddy of Billy Graham — they were, at times, preaching team-mates. Along the way, however, gnawing doubts began to work on his mind. He started questioning the reliability of the Bible. He whole-heartedly swallowed the Darwinian view of “evolutionary” history. He now confesses that he “always doubted the Genesis account of creation,” and he secretly rejected the biblical teaching of final punishment for the disobedient. Unquestionably, then, he labored for years under the burden of a progressively hardening heart. He was hypocrisy personified. Finally, he could bear it no longer. He cut loose from it all. To use his own words, he bade “farewell to God.”" (quoted from the link)http://www.christiancourier.com/penp...icReflects.htm

2 Peter 2

20 And when people escape from the wicked ways of the world by learning about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up with sin and become its slave again, they are worse off than before. 21 It would be better if they had never known the right way to live than to know it and then reject the holy commandments that were given to them.

Hebrews 6

4 For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come-- 6and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.

Hebrews 10

26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There will be nothing to look forward to but the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28 Anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God and have treated the blood of the covenant as if it were common and unholy. Such people have insulted and enraged the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to his people.

30 For we know the one who said,


"I will take vengeance.
I will repay those who deserve it."

He also said,


"The Lord will judge his own people."

31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Adam Clark Bible Commentary
Verse 26. For if we sin wilfully
If we deliberately, for fear of persecution or from any other motive, renounce the profession of the Gospel and the Author of that Gospel, after having received the knowledge of the truth so as to be convinced that Jesus is the promised Messiah, and that he had sprinkled our hearts from an evil conscience; for such there remaineth no sacrifice for sins; for as the Jewish sacrifices are abolished, as appears by the declaration of God himself in the fortieth Psalm, and Jesus being now the only sacrifice which God will accept, those who reject him have none other; therefore their case must be utterly without remedy. This is the meaning of the apostle, and the case is that of a deliberate apostate-one who has utterly rejected Jesus Christ and his atonement, and renounced the whole Gospel system.

It has nothing to do with backsliders in our common use of that term. A man may be overtaken in a fault, or he may deliberately go into sin, and yet neither renounce the Gospel, nor deny the Lord that bought him. His case is dreary and dangerous, but it is not hopeless; no case is hopeless but that of the deliberate apostate, who rejects the whole Gospel system, after having been saved by grace, or convinced of the truth of the Gospel. To him there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin; for there was but the ONE, Jesus, and this he has utterly rejected.

2 Thessalonians 2

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/misconceptions.htm
10 Common Misconceptions
About A Conditional Security

The following are misconceptions and straw man arguments that eternal security people use to falsely accuse and discredit Christians like us who teach a conditional security for the believer. Certainly, sometimes the eternal security teachers will intentionally imply any, some or all of the following to dishonor our beliefs when they are teaching. Here is what they slanderously say about us:

Such people don’t believe in grace.

Such people don’t believe in the blood of Jesus.

Such people don’t believe in the infinite work of Christ.

Such people don’t believe in the free gift of eternal life.

Such people believe in a works salvation.

Such people are in legalism

Such people believe in sinless perfection.

Such people are trying to save themselves.

Such people are unsaved.

Such people think they lose their salvation every time they sin.

Setting The Record Straight

Let’s review that list again but this time supply Biblical answers/comments to clear away these misconceptions about Christians who embrace a conditional security:

Such people don’t believe in grace.

We believe and know without a doubt that we are saved by grace, as the Bible declares (Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5, 8, etc.). But after we do get saved we also know we can fall from grace (Gal. 5:2-4). If such occurs, then Christ has become of no effect unto such people, according to Scripture (Gal. 5:4). We also know there are other ways in which we can lose our salvation, according to Scripture.

Such people don’t believe in the blood of Jesus.

We believe it is only by the blood of Jesus that we can be purged from our sins (Heb. 1:3) and set free from its slavery (Rev. 1:5). We contact Jesus’ precious, saving blood at the point of a trusting-submitting faith in the Lord Jesus when we turn from all sins and get born again. But we also know some have treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them (Heb. 10:29) and have since become enemies of God with raging fire awaiting them (Heb. 10:27). See also James 4:4.

Such people don’t believe in the infinite work of Christ.

We know our redemption was paid for in full at the cross by Christ alone when he said, It is finished (John 19:30). But we also know the Lord Jesus and his apostles taught those already saved that they would have to endure and remain faithful to God to the end to be saved and not be hurt by the second death (Mt. 10:22; Rev. 2:10,11; Heb. 3:14).

Such people don’t believe in the free gift of eternal life.

We believe that eternal life is a gift, as Rom. 6:23 declares. But we also believe the previous verse which describes a real Christian, and what leads to holiness resulting with eternal life:

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 6:22,23).

Eternal life is gift, but it is also a hope, yet to be reaped in the age to come, for the ones who persist in doing good and don’t give up sowing to please the Spirit of God (Titus 3:7; Mark 10:30; Rom. 2:7; Gal. 6:8,9; etc.).

Such people believe in a works salvation.

As already stated we believe we are saved by grace. But we also believe grace is best described in the following passage:


It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age (Titus 2:12).


Paul also believed and wrote about salvation (by grace) and gave the following to those who had already been saved:


The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers (Gal. 6:8-10).

Such people are in legalism.

Paul taught against legalism, yet taught the aforementioned facts about salvation, which the eternal security teachers cannot reconcile with their security-in-sin “gospel.” In other words, those Scriptures, and others like them, are under the umbrella of grace, not legalism.

Such people believe in sinless perfection.

We do not believe in sinless perfection, as some have in the past. All sins are not the same in their effect on our souls. Some sins are greater than others (Jn. 19:11). One type is eternal (Mk. 3:29), while others are not. Another type of sin is uniquely against our bodies, while other sins are outside our bodies (1 Cor. 6:18). 1 Jn. 5:16 declares there is a sin that does not lead to death while there is a sin that leads to death. Sins such as worry (Phil. 4:6), unthankfulness (Col. 2:7, 3:15; Lk. 17:11-18) and not being completely humble and gentle (Eph. 4:2) are not included in any of the lists of sins that will send people to the lake of fire, even if they were once saved. However, other sins certainly will send any person to hell if they die unrepentant, even a person who was once saved. (See 1 Cor. 6:9,10; Rev. 21:8; Gal. 5:19-21; Eph. 5:5,6; Jude 7; Rev. 22:15; etc.).


Such people are trying to save themselves.

We are not trying to save ourselves. Jesus is the only Savior (Acts 4:12) and our eyes are on him for our salvation. All 100% of our trust is in Jesus alone for salvation and not our good deeds too, even though we have good deeds. We are his sheep, and have salvation, as long as we continue to follow him (John 10:27). Because our faith is alive we have good deeds (James 2:17).


Such people are unsaved.


We are not unsaved because we reject eternal security. Such an untruth cannot be tied to any Scripture. We do acknowledge that Christian people can become unsaved, though, by believing/preaching a false gospel, committing certain types of sin or disowning Jesus during persecution (1 Cor. 15:2; 1 John 2:24,25; Gal. 1:8,9; Rev. 21:8; Eph. 5:5-7; Gal. 5:19-21; Mt. 10:33; etc.).

Such people think they lose their salvation every time they sin.


We do not believe we lose our salvation every time we sin. There are many sins that will not damn any Christian to eternal fire if committed, such as: worry, not being completely humble and gentle and not overflowing with thanksgiving. Never are such sins included in any Biblical list which states who will not inherit the kingdom of God and/or be thrown into the lake of fire such as the sexually immoral, drunkards, idolaters, murderers, liars, etc. (1 Cor. 6:9,10; Eph. 5:5-7; Rev. 21:8).


We get all 100% of our beliefs from the Bible and sincerely have studied it for decades with a willingness to change accordingly. Our beliefs are backed up with appropriate Scripture used in its proper context as well as other supporting Scriptures. We have found the eternal security proponents to be the ones who don’t understand the Bible and will misrepresent our beliefs to make their own seem more credible, as just shown.


For much more information on eternal security consult our 801 page book, The Believer’s Conditional Security. This book has never been and never will be refuted. It is the dread of the eternal security teachers. GOD BLESS YOU.
------

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www.evangelicaloutreach.org


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PO Box 265, Washington, PA 15301


Galatians 5:2-4

2 Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ cannot help you. 3 I'll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey all of the regulations in the whole law of Moses. 4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace.

God bless

[DeafPosttrib]

I believe that, OSAS gives people a false hope.

OSAS teaches that an individual who is backslidder, will suffer loss reward at the judgment seat of Christ, but still saved.

Is this biblical?

Secondly, many saying when an individual who shall suffer loss reward at the judgment seat of Christ, shall be exclude from Millennial Kingdom, to face the punishment somewhere place and shall not reigh with Christ on earth for 1000 years.

Is this bibical? This is sound like Christian purgatory to me.

I was used myself as securist before for many years. In year 2002, I was no longer believe in eternal security doctrine or so called, 'OSAS'. Because I have read throughout scriptures telling me there are plenty of conditionals with warnings.

Matthew 25:14-30 is a perfect example of judgment seat of Christ with three servants with their talent.

Matt. 25:26-30 telling us, the lord shall saying to a servant, who hide his one talent, that servant is a wicked and lazy. Then, verse 30 tells us that, a lazy servant shall be cast away into everlasting fire.

Obivous, this verse 30 does not support OSAS. Neither, it supports Millennial Exculsion(recently teaching by Joey Faust).

Matt. 25:26-30 warn us, if we do nothing for the Lord, like, not witness gospel to people, not hopsitalizing people, not serve each other, and remain in the world, will be end up in everlasting fire!

Matt. 25:26-30 do not say that an lazy servant will suffer loss reward, but still saved. It telling us very clear that, a lazy servant will be immediately cast forward to everlasting fire by follow at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[copper25]

All those things you said about "eternal security people" sounds more like the flaws of the theology of the teacher and their poor study on the word of God, but if one has true faith in their God to deliver them and strengthen them, is that a bad thing, I think not.

The book of Psalms illustrates at times David,where he is about to have emotional break downs, if it wasn't for his trust in God.

This I will say, when people teach falsehood and mishandle the word it is a bad thing. As Christians we ARE NOT above the warnings that God gives, because they are for all. God is not a respecter of persons.

Unconditional, I would never say so, the reason being

Matthew 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If the totality and overall lifestyle of someone is corrupt, then how can they be a Christian?

Moreover, does God let his children whom He loves stay in corruption?

Was Charles Templeton really a child of God. He fell away from the faith completely and the scripture says, our very Lord says

John 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:35) "the scripture cannot be broken"

[moonglow]

All those things you said about "eternal security people" sounds more like the flaws of the theology of the teacher and their poor study on the word of God, but if one has true faith in their God to deliver them and strengthen them, is that a bad thing, I think not.

The book of Psalms illustrates at times David,where he is about to have emotional break downs, if it wasn't for his trust in God.

This I will say, when people teach falsehood and mishandle the word it is a bad thing. As Christians we ARE NOT above the warnings that God gives, because they are for all. God is not a respecter of persons.

Unconditional, I would never say so, the reason being

Matthew 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If the totality and overall lifestyle of someone is corrupt, then how can they be a Christian?

Moreover, does God let his children whom He loves stay in corruption?

Was Charles Templeton really a child of God. He fell away from the faith completely and the scripture says, our very Lord says

John 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:35) "the scripture cannot be broken"

Those scriptures about about others turning us away from our faith though....they say nothing about us choosing to reject God on our own. I gave plenty of scriptures showing a believer can do that too...don't know what else to tell you. I have done these debates many times also before and don't really care to do them again. I end up (like everyone else) just repeating myself over and over again. If you don't hear it the first time, you aren't going to hear it the second time. I wish you the best in your walk with God.

[Butch5]

All those things you said about "eternal security people" sounds more like the flaws of the theology of the teacher and their poor study on the word of God, but if one has true faith in their God to deliver them and strengthen them, is that a bad thing, I think not.

The book of Psalms illustrates at times David,where he is about to have emotional break downs, if it wasn't for his trust in God.

This I will say, when people teach falsehood and mishandle the word it is a bad thing. As Christians we ARE NOT above the warnings that God gives, because they are for all. God is not a respecter of persons.

Unconditional, I would never say so, the reason being

Matthew 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If the totality and overall lifestyle of someone is corrupt, then how can they be a Christian?

Moreover, does God let his children whom He loves stay in corruption?

Was Charles Templeton really a child of God. He fell away from the faith completely and the scripture says, our very Lord says

John 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:35) "the scripture cannot be broken"

The promises in these verses from John 10, are made to the one who is "currently believing", if one stops believing they no longer have the promise.

[copper25]

I believe that, OSAS gives people a false hope.


Matt. 25:26-30 warn us, if we do nothing for the Lord, like, not witness gospel to people, not hopsitalizing people, not serve each other, and remain in the world, will be end up in everlasting fire!

Matt. 25:26-30 do not say that an lazy servant will suffer loss reward, but still saved. It telling us very clear that, a lazy servant will be immediately cast forward to everlasting fire by follow at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

1 Corinthians 3

10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is the believer's judgment, it will be fore reward,
Those goats spoken of in Matthew 25 are going to face Great White throne judgment day, not the judgment seat of Christ. These are two different judgments, one for reward, (the believer's judgment), and the other wrath, which is after the millennium reign with Christ. But those lazy servants go to hell.

Matthew 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice, Christ NEVER knew them at all, there was NO relationship with them. They were not his, neither are those lazy servants, but rather fakes and imposters, posing as what they aren't

Just because someone does works, speaking toungues, prophesing, are they really Christ'? Not neccassarily

Matthew 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

That is the problem, when people look at a person's works rather then a persons fruit

Matthew 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Notice this verse

1 John 2:19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

When someone leaves the faith, gone, bye-forever, they were not really even a Christian else they would have persevere in the faith.

[DeafPosttrib]

Butch5,

You are correct.

Also, John 10:27-29 promise us, that Christ knows sheep who 'Hear' and 'FOLLOW' Him, no one shall remove them from Christ's hand, as long as they continue follow Him same time, have eternal life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[ilovemetal]

this whole thing doesn't make sense to me. i usually avoid this topic, cuz there is never any conclusons, but:

if i know what i know now, there's no going back. it's not an option. it's like unlearning 2+2, i don't see it being possable. (this is assuming someone is truley saved)

thus we're either saved or we arn't. we'll know if we are.

[DeafPosttrib]

The context of whole 1 Corintians chapter 3 talking about pastors and leaders only(vs. 4 as "I am of Paul" & "I am of Apollos", as they "planted them"(people)-vs. 6-7). Pastors' works shall be revealed at the judgment seat of Christ, show the result of their works would be, some will be success, or failed, which speaking of built their foundation upon their people(congregation), if their built works of their foundation are success or failed. That their result shall be revealed at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Some will be success, some will be suffer loss, yet their souls are saved by the fire.

1 Corinthians 3:1-15 apply to the pastors or leaders only.

This passage say nothing that Christians(members or congregation) shall suffer loss "reward" at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[Toymom]

The context of whole 1 Corintians chapter 3 talking about pastors and leaders only(vs. 4 as "I am of Paul" & "I am of Apollos", as they "planted them"(people)-vs. 6-7). Pastors' works shall be revealed at the judgment seat of Christ, show the result of their works would be, some will be success, or failed, which speaking of built their foundation upon their people(congregation), if their built works of their foundation are success or failed. That their result shall be revealed at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Some will be success, some will be suffer loss, yet their souls are saved by the fire.

1 Corinthians 3:1-15 apply to the pastors or leaders only.

This passage say nothing that Christians(members or congregation) shall suffer loss "reward" at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The New Testament does not have "pastors" and "members of a congregation". We are all God's fellow workers and we are all His farm. We are all members of the Body of Christ and we should all be building up His Body. If we build with wood, hay and stubble, those are things out of our natural background and are not what we should use to build the Body of Christ. Those things don't count. What we should build with is gold, silver and precious stones, which signify our experiences of Christ and attributes of the triune God. That is what the Body of Christ should be built with. The reward in 3:14 is not our salvation. This reward is also spoken of in Hebrews 10:35 and is something in addition to our eternal salvation. Eph. 2:8-9 tells us that our salvation is based on faith, which is a gift from God, not on our works.

[Butch5]

copper25---1 Corinthians 3

10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is the believer's judgment, it will be fore reward,

No, this is not the believers judgment. Paul is speaking here of teachers, look at the context.

1 Corinthians 3:5-16 ( KJV ) 5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. 10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Paul is speaking of himself as the master builder of the church at Corinth. He laid the foundation and Apollos watered. Paul founded the church and taught, Apollos came behind him as a teacher. Then He says if any man builds on this foundation, what foundation? the foundation that Paul had laid. If any man builds on this foundation His work will be tried by fire, in other words his doctrine will be tried, and if it is not sound doctrine it will be burned yet he will still be saved. He goes on to say if any man destroys the temple of God, the church, (in this case at Corinth} God will destroy him. How would someone destroy the Church at Corinth? False teaching.

copper25---Those goats spoken of in Matthew 25 are going to face Great White throne judgment day, not the judgment seat of Christ. These are two different judgments, one for reward, (the believer's judgment), and the other wrath, which is after the millennium reign with Christ. But those lazy servants go to hell.

Yes but what you are overlooking is that the judgment the will go to is dependent upon their deeds.

copper25---Matthew 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice, Christ NEVER knew them at all, there was NO relationship with them. They were not his, neither are those lazy servants, but rather fakes and imposters, posing as what they aren't

Just because someone does works, speaking toungues, prophesing, are they really Christ'? Not neccassarily

So, we have people performing the works of the Spirit without the Spirit?

copper25---Matthew 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

That is the problem, when people look at a person's works rather then a persons fruit

Matthew 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

What is the difference between one's works and one;s fruit?

Notice this verse

copper25---1 John 2:19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

When someone leaves the faith, gone, bye-forever, they were not really even a Christian else they would have persevere in the faith.

If you look at that in context you will find that John is addressing the issue of false teachers, they were teaching a false doctrine.

[Butch5]

The New Testament does not have "pastors" and "members of a congregation". We are all God's fellow workers and we are all His farm. We are all members of the Body of Christ and we should all be building up His Body. If we build with wood, hay and stubble, those are things out of our natural background and are not what we should use to build the Body of Christ. Those things don't count. What we should build with is gold, silver and precious stones, which signify our experiences of Christ and attributes of the triune God. That is what the Body of Christ should be built with. The reward in 3:14 is not our salvation. This reward is also spoken of in Hebrews 10:35 and is something in addition to our eternal salvation. Eph. 2:8-9 tells us that our salvation is based on faith, which is a gift from God, not on our works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that our salvation is not based of the works of the law, it is not speaking of works of righteousness.