Why doubt OSAS?

[Butch5]

No, while you give it up you don't have to unlearn it. If I quit job J am I still considered a worker of J? Do people still say, 'he performs J'? They don't, I've left it behind. My quitting, leaving J also necessarily means I'm no longer associated with J. At one point in the past I was a performer of J, but in the present I am not.

Which is why I don't like OSAS. Saying I've lost my salvation is like saying God has sent me to Hell. No, I've given up my salvation and I send myself to Hell.

I agree, that was my point.

[Athanasius]

Simple, to say once one knows and understands the truth, that they would have to unlearn the truth to be lost, is like saying you would have to unlearn your job in order to quit, which obviously is not necessary.

It's a false comparison, you're ignoring another possibility - one doesn't necessarily have to unlearn to the truth to be lost. One can ignore the truth and end up in a state of 'lost'.

I agree, that was my point.

Cool, I kind of jumped it without reading the thread

[Butch5]

It's a false comparison, you're ignoring another possibility - one doesn't necessarily have to unlearn to the truth to be lost. One can ignore the truth and end up in a state of 'lost'.

I agree with you, I was pointing that out. He said once you learn the truth, can unlearn unlearn it to loose salvation? My point was that you don't unlearn it, you reject it.

[Athanasius]

I agree with you, I was pointing that out. He said once you learn the truth, can unlearn unlearn it to loose salvation? My point was that you don't unlearn it, you reject it.

My apologies, I only glazed over the thread.

[Butch5]

My apologies, I only glazed over the thread.

No problem, actually I thought it was funny. Everytime I posted a reply there was one waiting when I was done posting. LOL.

[My heart's Desire]

My take as always is if Jesus Christ saves, salvation is complete, if man saves himself it is always incomplete. If Christ couldn't trust man because He knew what was in the heart of man, then how can man trust himself? He cannot. That is why we trust God and not man or ourselves.

[My heart's Desire]

Salvation through faith, right?


It looks to me like the reason the OSAS question can never seem to be answered is that it is based on a false assumption.
It assumes that the work of salvation is complete.

A complete salvation requires all three.
Redemption (Restored the way to God for all mankind through Jesus death) Complete
Sanctification (Being made perfect by the Holy Spirit "Jesus life") Ongoing
Glorification (Having our bodies transformed into His Immortal form) Awaiting

.

If one who trusts in what Christ did on the Cross for them can assume that the work of salvation is not complete, is that the same as saying they don't think the work of the Cross for salvation was complete either? Either one believes what Christ says about it or they don't.
If one believes that they may or may not be sanctified or glorified in other words completely saved until it actually happens, aren't they really saying they don't believe that Christ's promises are trustworthy?

[ilovemetal]

I agree with you, I was pointing that out. He said once you learn the truth, can unlearn unlearn it to loose salvation? My point was that you don't unlearn it, you reject it.

i think this is what i mean, so i'm probly agreeing with you, only i word my points strangly.

my problem is i couldn't reject 'this' truth, as it were. the thing about knowing God is it's uncomparable to anything else. it's like being an orphan child for years and years, even into adulthood. then you get a family and are brought up in a loving home, then reject that love they give. there's no explanation to leave that....to willingly chose eternal death over love doesn't compute, to me.

i don't know...that's all i got.

[My heart's Desire]

I could give plenty of reasons as to why you should doubt OSAS....

Also note Rev 3:5 "5'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

And who is the overcomer? The overcomer is this...1 JOHN 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith.
(Who is the ONE Who is really the overcomer? John 16:33 These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.")
Who else is the overcomer? 1 John 5:5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
These verses tell me alot. The overcomer believes that Jesus is the Son of God. The overcomer is what is born of God.
Now, Who is really the overcomer? Jesus Christ has overcome the world and the true overcomes is the one who believes the Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
The requirement of being a overcomer is one who believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Jesus Christ is the One Who has already overcome the World.
Seems to me that the one who becomes saved is not because they overcame somehow on their own. They are already overcomers Because they believe in the One who already overcame the world, that is Jesus Christ whom they believe to be the Son of God.

[My heart's Desire]

My point was that you don't unlearn it, you reject it.

Is that sort of like, it's the truth that I was born a female, and I used to believe it to be true, but now that I reject it, I'm no longer a female?

[bagofseed]

If one who trusts in what Christ did on the Cross for them can assume that the work of salvation is not complete, is that the same as saying they don't think the work of the Cross for salvation was complete either? Either one believes what Christ says about it or they don't.
If one believes that they may or may not be sanctified or glorified in other words completely saved until it actually happens, aren't they really saying they don't believe that Christ's promises are trustworthy?

Salvation has a condition on you of holding fast to the end.

One must take all the scriptures on salvation together to have a proper understanding of any of the individual verses.
Their is not only a local context for each verse but also a global context for each subject.

That is to say no one verse can be used to reject another.
If you find a case where this seems so, what you need to reject is your present understanding of the subject.

[bagofseed]

Salvation requires us to endure

Mt 10:22
"You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

2Ti 2:12
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

1Co 15:2
… by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Ro 11:20 - 22
… they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Col 1:22-23
… yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard


Jas 1:12
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Re 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Salvation requires us to forgive

Mt 6:15
But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Mt 18:34
And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.



Salvation requires us to love our brother

1Jo 3:10
By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1Jo 3:15
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Salvation requires us to hate our lives in this world

Joh 12:25
"He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

Salvation requires us to repent (Turning around)

2Co 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

2Ti 2:25
… with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
Salvation requires us to suffer with Him.

Ro 8:17
… and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Salvation requires us to eagerly await Him

Heb 9:28
… so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

[kay-gee]

Correct bagoseed. I find so often in dealing with many of these issues, people take one verse of scripture and run with it to the exclusion of everything else that deals with the issue. We need to examine the "Whole" council of God.

all the best...

[Butch5]

My take as always is if Jesus Christ saves, salvation is complete, if man saves himself it is always incomplete. If Christ couldn't trust man because He knew what was in the heart of man, then how can man trust himself? He cannot. That is why we trust God and not man or ourselves.

Once again, I don't think anyone is saying man saves himself. If you are in the ocean, someone throws you a life preserver and a rope, you take old of them, have you saved yourself??? Obviously not, if the means had not be provided by another, you would not be saved. Therefore it is God who saves, He provided the life preserver and the rope, if you take hold "He" will save you, you have not saved yourself, if you refuse to take hold, then you will not be saved. If halfway back to the boat your change you mind and let go of the rope, will you be saved??? No, likewise, if you let go of Christ before the end you will not be saved.

[Butch5]

If one who trusts in what Christ did on the Cross for them can assume that the work of salvation is not complete, is that the same as saying they don't think the work of the Cross for salvation was complete either? Either one believes what Christ says about it or they don't.
If one believes that they may or may not be sanctified or glorified in other words completely saved until it actually happens, aren't they really saying they don't believe that Christ's promises are trustworthy?

How is salvation complete if we have not yet been resurrected, Paul said the Holy Spirit is our down payment until the redemption of the purchased possession. If we just have the down payment salvation is not complete.

Regarding Christ's promises, they are only to the one who continues in present tense belief, if one stops believing, i.e. obedient faith, then one does not have the promises.