Why doubt OSAS?

[Athanasius]

So that is saying that an act of God, such as being reborn, such as being baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ, can be undone by a human?

Undone in the sense of reversed? As per the conversation earlier regarding 'unlearning' a job my answer would stay the same - no. As with that previous discussion my answer would also be the same regarding the rest of the question. One doesn't necessarily have to unlearn [a job] or undue [an act of God] to "leave God". They need only toss those things to the side; rationalize them away, explain them away, knowingly ignore them, etc.

What I was trying to say with my previous response was that the initial act of putting faith in God is an act necessarily performed by the believer. This is the act I was primarily referring to that would be the act 'undone'.

Though I suppose it begs the question. If one puts aside 'rebirth' and 'baptism by the Spirit', is one not in a sense undoing these acts? For now I am content with answering one doesn't necessarily have to undo these acts, I'll leave it at that.

[My heart's Desire]

2Ti 2:12
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
.

You forgot verse 13. If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Appears to me that these verses are indeed about God's faithfulness, not ours.

[My heart's Desire]

Undone in the sense of reversed? As per the conversation earlier regarding 'unlearning' a job my answer would stay the same - no. As with that previous discussion my answer would also be the same regarding the rest of the question. One doesn't necessarily have to unlearn [a job] or undue [an act of God] to "leave God". They need only toss those things to the side; rationalize them away, explain them away, knowingly ignore them, etc.

What I was trying to say with my previous response was that the initial act of putting faith in God is an act necessarily performed by the believer. This is the act I was primarily referring to that would be the act 'undone'.

Though I suppose it begs the question. If one puts aside 'rebirth' and 'baptism by the Spirit', is one not in a sense undoing these acts? For now I am content with answering one doesn't necessarily have to undo these acts, I'll leave it at that.

Thanks, and I understand your position.

[My heart's Desire]

Was Adam alive, spiritually, before he sinned?

I don't know. Was he? I know if I get into that subject, I'll be back on the "what is the meaning of soul,spirit,body, breath of life," do they cease to exist etc topic which will get the thread thrown into the "World religion" category.

[My heart's Desire]

Yes, and that belief must continue, it is always in the present tense, if one stops then believing turns to believed, which his past tense.

If I stop believing that He is the Son of God, does He cease to be the Son of God? If I stop believing that the Sun will rise in the morning, does the Sun cease to rise? If I stop believing that My Father did not father me does that make Him any less my Father? If I cease to believe that Christ saved me after He did, does that make Him any less my Savior?

[Jemand]

Ephesians 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

In the Greek text, Eph. 1:3-14 is one sentence with one primary clause and a multitude of subordinate clauses. The primary clause is translated in our English versions as, “Blessed be the God and Father” and every other word and statement in that very long sentence is subordinate to that primary clause.

The American Standard Version of 1901 takes this fact in consideration and gives us the following translation,

3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
4. even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
5. having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:
7. in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trepasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8. which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9. making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
10. unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,
11. in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
12. to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:
13. in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14. which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Therefore, verses 3-14 are a doxology, a form of eulogy. And as we all know, eulogies are not intended to be series of facts that tell the whole story in an objective manner. Indeed, they tell only one side of the story—in this case, the faithfulness of God. Man’s responsibility of faith in God is introduced in the next sentence after the eulogy.

In the 16th century when the doctrine of eternal security was first conceived as the result of a new and incorrect understanding regarding the sovereignty of God, New Testament studies were in their infancy and New Testament scholars had very much less to work with than does a 12-year-old boy or girl today with access to the internet. New Testament scholars today have massive amounts of data relative to the correct interpretation of Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians, and the best of the recent commentaries on the Greek text of that epistle summarize much of that data, provide comparative analyses of that data, and comparative conclusions. 21st century readers of Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians in an English translation with very little other data to work with are likely to interpret the epistle on the basis of the theology to which they have been exposed. Even when introduced to some of the data that proves that their interpretation is incorrect, they are more than likely to believe what makes them feel good rather than the truth.

[bagofseed]

If I stop believing that He is the Son of God, does He cease to be the Son of God? If I stop believing that the Sun will rise in the morning, does the Sun cease to rise? If I stop believing that My Father did not father me does that make Him any less my Father? If I cease to believe that Christ saved me after He did, does that make Him any less my Savior?

He is everyone's savior, but not everyone is saved.

2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, since we have concluded this, that Christ died for all; therefore all have died. 5:15 And he died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised.

Jesus died for all but not all live.

5:19 In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.

[Jemand]

God has the ultimate foreknowledge. He knows what happens from the beginning to the end. Not only that, but it is of his will anything happens, because he allows it. He is sovereign over all time, all things. When He calls, elects, picks a person to do his working in, to circumcise their heart, (Colossians 2:11, Romans 3:30), to give them a new Spirit and a new heart (Jeremiah 32:39-40, Ezekiel 11:19)(Ezekiel 36:26), that births in that person a new mentality, one that loves and desires to walk in God's law, his precepts, his ways (Ezekiel 36:27)(Ezekiel 11:21), do you think that a person that is TRULY saved is going to slip into a life of perdition once he was been transformed by the Grace of God; or better yet after reading a verse like Jeremiah 32:41, keeping in mind that this is God speaking and saying this, "Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.", that God will not do everything in is power (which is limitless) to correct his children, those that are really his?

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

Up until the 16th century this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell.

The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Pe****ta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.

Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.

Because of the extreme severity of the word “impossible” in this verse, many very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now solid and its warning is stern.

[copper25]

My question is to you all, you say that Jesus says (Matthew 24:13) "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." and you say yes, but when Jesus our Lord says (John 6:37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." you completely ignore it and even to say "cast it out the window"?

Can you believe that the bibile is the unfailable word of God and yet
cherry pick and give quarrel against it? I am not saying that we won't have to endure, but why do you all doubt God's character, his ability to work in a person's life to persevere them and keep them until the resurrection?

[Butch5]

You forgot verse 13. If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Appears to me that these verses are indeed about God's faithfulness, not ours.

It says He cannot deny Himself, not that He cannot deny the one who believes not. If He saved the one wo believes not, He would be denying Himslelf, He said,

John 3:18 ( KJV ) 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Butch5]

If I stop believing that He is the Son of God, does He cease to be the Son of God? If I stop believing that the Sun will rise in the morning, does the Sun cease to rise? If I stop believing that My Father did not father me does that make Him any less my Father? If I cease to believe that Christ saved me after He did, does that make Him any less my Savior?

He's the savior whether you believe or not, He has promised to save the one who "is believing," if one stops believing one no longer meets the condition, therefore one falls outside of salvation. Nothing about Christ changes.

[Butch5]

My question is to you all, you say that Jesus says (Matthew 24:13) "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." and you say yes, but when Jesus our Lord says (John 6:37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." you completely ignore it and even to say "cast it out the window"?

Can you believe that the bibile is the unfailable word of God and yet
cherry pick and give quarrel against it? I am not saying that we won't have to endure, but why do you all doubt God's character, his ability to work in a person's life to persevere them and keep them until the resurrection?

You have John 6:37 out of context, this was a statement that Jesus made during His earthly ministry. At this point God was bringing about the crucifiction and only chose certain people to come to Christ, i.e. the apostles. You cannot use that verse to support OSAS, remember one of those who was given to Christ by the Father was Judas, he was lost.
Here is a brief outline,

I would like to explain John 6:37:45, it is not speaking of Calvinistic election.


John 6:37-45 ( KJV ) 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

First let's set the scene, God was setting the scene for the crucifiction, Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Jews. Now these verses do no apply to you or I, when Jesus said this, salvation had not yet come to the gentiles, Jesus himself said,

Matthew 15:24 ( KJV ) 24But he answered and said,I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So these verses only concern the Jews of Jesus day, also notice what Jesus said in verse 40,


John 6:40 ( KJV ) 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one today will see the Son. Now Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws Him, this is correct. God was setting up the crucifiction and for that to take place the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, God determined that Christ would die for sins,


Acts 2:23 ( KJV ) 23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

For this to happen the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, so God blinded Israel,

Jesus
Mark 4:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Isaiah
Isaiah 6:9-10 ( KJV ) 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Paul
Romans 11:25 ( KJV ) 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Paul
Romans 11:8 ( KJV ) 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Now had they understood, they would not have crucified the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:8 ( KJV ) 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

So since Israel was blinded NO ONE could come to Christ unless they were drawn by the Father, this is shown is verse 45,

John 6:45 ( KJV ) 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
So prior to the crucifiction all those who were drawn by the Father come to Christ and he will in no way cast out. Now Jesus said that it was the Fathers will that He should lift them up at the last day, now the question is what does He mean by "it was the Fathers will that He should lift them up at the last day" is this something that must happen or is it what the Father desires to happen? I say that this is what the Father desires to happen but it doesn't have to happen, let's look at it. First the Calvinist would say that those who are drawn to Christ are the elect, those given to Christ are the elect. So let's see who they are, John 17 tells us who they are,

John 17:2 ( KJV ) 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17:6-8 ( KJV ) 6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

So we see from John 17 that the ones given to Christ by the Father were the disciples, Now Jesus said He should raise them up at the last day. Is that a guarantee? No,


John 17:12 ( KJV ) 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Now Judas was lost He will not be lifted up at the last day, now you can say Judas wasn't saved, but you can't say that Judas wasn't one of those given to Christ by the Father. Judas WAS given to Christ by the Father, so it was the desire of God that all be lifted up but that did not happen.
Now as I said earlier this all took place so that the crucifiction took place, after the crucifiction the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles, which is shown by Jesus statement in John 12,

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So we see that after the crucifiction the gospel has gone out to ALL men, now everyone has the opportunity to receive the Gospel.which is evidenced by Acts 2:36-38

Acts 2:36-38 ( KJV ) 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These same people who just a little while ago were crying out for Christ to be crucified were now cut to the heart and asked Peter what they needed to do to be saved.

[My heart's Desire]

He is everyone's savior, but not everyone is saved.

2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, since we have concluded this, that Christ died for all; therefore all have died. 5:15 And he died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised.

Jesus died for all but not all live.

5:19 In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.

Those who have believed are saved. He did die for the sins of the world, but He did not save all. I'm not an universalist.

[My heart's Desire]

It says He cannot deny Himself, not that He cannot deny the one who believes not. If He saved the one wo believes not, He would be denying Himslelf, He said,

John 3:18 ( KJV ) 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I'm looking at the transaction which takes place when one believes. When someone believes, they become a member of Christ's body and as such Christ cannot deny Himself.

[Butch5]

I'm looking at the transaction which takes place when one believes. When someone believes, they become a member of Christ's body and as such Christ cannot deny Himself.

It says clearly on the previous verse, "if we deny Him, He will deny us" surely Paul didn't contradict Himself. Therefore he must mean if we belive not and Christ cannot deny Himself that we would be lost.