Why does satan think he can win?

[Bible2]

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #30 of this thread:

Actually, satan is not speaking.

Greetings.

Satan is speaking in Isaiah 14:13b-14, insofar as Satan said those
things in his heart: "thou hast said in thine heart" (Isaiah 14:13).

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #30 of this thread:

God is uttering a record that once filled satan’s heart, and his
actions suggests it still does.

That's right, mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:7), Satan will try to make
good, at least temporarily, on his heart's vow in Isaiah 14:13b-14.

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #30 of this thread:

Isaiah 14 records God stating satan’s desire was to rise above the
stars of heaven. These “stars” or angels are the balance of the
entire angelic host which did not follow satan in his original rebellion.

That's right, insofar as it is said that one-third of the angels chose to
follow Satan in disobeying God, so that during the mid-tribulation war
in heaven, and the defeat of Satan and his angels at that time
(Revelation 12:9), Satan will in effect be responsible for one-third of
the angels being cast down from heaven to the earth for good
(Revelation 12:4). In Revelation 12:4, "stars" represents angels, just
as "stars" represents angels in Revelation 1:20.

But back at the time when Lucifer first said Isaiah 14:13b-14 in his
heart, this could have been his first decision to do what he wanted
instead of what YHWH wanted; it could have been his initial fall from
being "Lucifer" to being "Satan", the "Adversary", of God's will for him.
At that time, Lucifer/Satan may not yet have told his plans to the
one-third of the angels who would come to follow him. They could
have been assigned to the earth with him when (if) he, as the still
unfallen Lucifer, was assigned as the "covering cherub" over Eden
(Ezekiel 28:13-15) before the fall of Eve and Adam. Lucifer could
have begun to chafe at his earthly assignment as beneath his
dignity, and then he could have stirred up the resentment of the
one-third of the angels assigned to the earth with him, convincing
them that it was unfair that they should be (what he could call)
"stuck on this pinprick planet in the middle of nowhere babysitting
these two vile mud-creatures, Adam and Eve. We deserve to be
back in the glories of heaven".

[Bible2]

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #30 of this thread:

The scripture does not give us a hint of a certain level to which
satan wishes to ascend, only that he does. Setting a limit is
speculation on our part, at best. Him being satan, the ultimate
deceiver and the father of lies, I do not gather anything from the
scripture that would suggest he would be satisfied with anything
short of “the whole enchilada”. That being the case, in order to rise
above the angels of heaven, (satan is already over the fallen angels)
he must ascend to the throne of heaven, wherein only is found (in
his mind) the authority of which he is obsessed in possessing. That
would entail the replacement of whomever currently holds that
position. God. The record of the battle would confirm that
assumption.

Isaiah 14:13b-14 indicates the level which Satan wishes for himself:
rule in heaven over all the angels of YHWH. Satan knows that he
cannot defeat or replace the infinite, omnipotent YHWH, but Satan
desires to "also" sit upon the mount of the congregation, to be "like"
YHWH. The mid-tribulation war in heaven in Revelation 12:7 shows
Satan and his angels battling Michael and his angels, which is
consistent with Satan's desire to rule over all of the angels.

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #30 of this thread:

As for the statement of “satan knows he has but a short time”, the
scripture never records the thinking of satan in relation to the short
time he has.

Scripture does record Satan knowing mid-tribulation that his time is
short: "he knoweth that he hath but a short time" (Revelation 12:12).
For Satan knows the scriptures which foretell his being bound in the
bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3) at the second coming of Jesus
Christ (Revelation 19:11-20:3), which will occur immediately after the
tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #30 of this thread:

We only have his actions, (a battle to gain the throne of God during
the second half of the Great Tribulation) to deduce from.

Note that nothing says that Satan thinks that he can gain the
throne of the infinite, omnipotent YHWH himself. Instead, Satan
simply wants his own throne to be exalted over all the angels, in
heaven: "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne
above the stars [angels] of God" (Isaiah 14:13). Satan's throne
(seat) is now on the earth (Revelation 2:13). It could have been
moved there from heaven when (if) he was assigned, as the still
unfallen Lucifer, as the "covering cherub" over Eden (Ezekiel
28:13-15). During the mid-tribulation war of Revelation 12:7, when
Satan fails to exalt his throne over all of the angels in heaven, and
Satan is then cast down to the earth for good, he will give his
throne to the Antichrist (Revelation 13:2b), who will then have
power over the world (Revelation 13:7). The Antichrist will have
accepted the offer that Satan offered Jesus (Luke 4:5-7).

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #30 of this thread:

We know of his final state due to the extensive prophetic
information given us through God‘s word, but no record in the
scripture confirms satan accepts that conclusion.

Satan knows his final state as well as we do, for he knows the
scriptures. He knows that he cannot cause even a single scriptural
prophecy to fail to be fulfilled, that he cannot cause the least jot or
tittle of the Word of the infinite, omnipotent YHWH to pass away
(Matthew 5:18). That is why Satan will know mid-tribulation that he
only has a short time (Revelation 12:12b).

[Bible2]

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #30 of this thread:

On the contrary, his actions would suggest a denial of everything
told to him by God and prophesy, “except” that he was perfect in
the day he was created. As I said, If God said satan was once
perfect, satan still believes himself to be.

Actually, none of Satan's actions require that he denies any part of
the Word of God, in the sense of denying that YHWH will always
make good on that Word, eventually. For example, while Satan could
disagree with YHWH that Satan has iniquity in him, and is no longer
perfect (Ezekiel 28:15), Satan still knows that if YHWH's Word says
that Satan has iniquity in him that YHWH will ultimately deal with
Satan accordingly, and that there is nothing that Satan can do to
prevent that.

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #30 of this thread:

In the psyche of satan, who’s own creation preceded that of
mankind, man was created by God’s own admission in the very image
of himself. The physical counterpart of The Creator has proven
himself to be imperfect, as well as God’s own admission of this fact
on numerous occasions through a number of confirmations.
Therefore, (in the mind of satan) if the product is imperfect, the
mold from whence it came would logically contain a flaw from
whence the imperfection was derived.

Actually, Satan knows that everything YHWH created, including man,
was originally very good (Genesis 1:31). But in order for man to be
a very good image of God, man had to have free will like God. Free
will is not a flaw, for God has it and he has no flaws. Therefore, when
man was first created in the image of the flawless God, man also had
no flaws. But in order for free will to be free, it must contain within
it the possibility of alternate choices: if man had only the ability to
choose good, and had no ability to choose evil, then he would have
no free will; he would be a robot. God does not want robots; he
wants children, who can choose to love and serve him from their
own hearts, not from some computer program. Just as the angels
are not robots, but the sons of God (Job 1:6), so men were created
the children of God (Psalms 82:6), not robots. But if angels and men
can freely choose to love and serve God, then they must also be
able to freely choose to hate God and rebel against him. If Satan
sees this as a flaw, then how can he be perfect? And if he claims
that one can be perfect and still disobey God, then how could he
say that man's disobedience to God proves that man wasn't created
perfect?

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #30 of this thread:

This is the only logical reason that exists that could explain how
satan convinced a third of the angels of God to leave Heaven and
to take up residence on the earth.

It could be the other way around: just as Lucifer's rebellion was a
desire to leave earth and ascend back into heaven (Isaiah 14:13)
against God's will, so Satan (the now-rebellious Lucifer) could have
convinced one-third of the angels, who could have been assigned to
the earth with him, to try to leave the earth and ascend back into
heaven against God's will. Satan could never have convinced them
that they could ever defeat the infinite, omnipotent YHWH himself,
for the angels knew YHWH full well, having been in heaven with him
before being assigned to the earth. But Satan could have convinced
them that YHWH would let them get away with abandoning their
assignment on the earth and returning to heaven. Is this not how
Satan convinces men to sin? "Oh, don't worry about it. God will
forgive you. He will let it go". And then when men sin and lightning
doesn't immediately strike them dead, they think, hey, I think I will
do that again. "Because sentence against an evil work is not
executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully
set in them to do evil" (Ecclesiastes 8:11).

[RevJWWhiteJr]

Again,,, the question is,, “Why does satan think he can win?” , Not, whether or not you believe he thinks he can win. The wording of the question is the only reason I join the discussion, not to defend the position.

Well, satan has deceived himself in believing there is a flaw in the Creator, because the created image of himself is flawed. I guess I should have said imperfect, and made myself more clear so that there was less chance of my comments being taken out of context, as many do The Word.

Okay, satan has deceived himself in believing that the Creator is “imperfect”, not just flawed, because the created image of himself is imperfect. (Man, the very of the image of Elohiym, is imperfect is he not?) You inferred free will to be the imperfection. It is not. The devil has free will himself. He used it to rebel against the Almighty. He does not consider it a defect.

Whatever the imperfection to be (in satan’s mind of course), satan has avoided it due to himself (and all the other angels) not having being created after the same image, thereby avoiding the assumed defect. (In actuality, the heavenly host are only two person creations, and not a three as is man. Man is the only creation of God that he breathed his own Spirit into to bringing forth life from within.)

In my professional opinion, that may in fact be what satan believes “IS” the imperfection. All other life (including the angelic host) were merely spoken into existence.

Questions, comments, criticisms.

[cheech]

Joe, Satan does not plan on winning. He just wants to take as many with him as he can. Misery loves company.

Excellent answer! Satan is very prideful as was already noted. Sure, he knows the end of the story but that doesn't mean he won't stop trying. How many people do we see in our lifetime who do the same thing? They know they don't have a chance at getting something they want, but they are going to try everything possible to get it even if they do harm along the way.

Satan wants everything that God has...he wants to be God...have all the glory God has. God deserves the glory and satan does not. When God receives glory it is out of love and devotion. The only way satan can receive glory is by stealing it. The more he wreaks havoc in peoples lives, the more they look away from God and look more towards their problems, many times putting the blame on the enemy...hence giving more glory to the enemy for the bad stuff than to God for the good God does. He is so good at deception that he has probably even deceived himself into thinking he can win .

He's angry at and jealous of God and therefore what better way to hurt God than to take from Him what he loves most. He knows he can't win...as was noted...he's just determined to take as many of God's children with him as he can.

[MarleVVLL]

Excellent answer! Satan is very prideful as was already noted. Sure, he knows the end of the story but that doesn't mean he won't stop trying. How many people do we see in our lifetime who do the same thing? They know they don't have a chance at getting something they want, but they are going to try everything possible to get it even if they do harm along the way.

This is very true. The principal applies to humans too - especially those who have been preached to. Y'know, the type that know the truth; who know the end of the story, yet live their own life according to their own lusts and desires. People can say, "Satan is crazy for doing that!", but people do it all the time.

[Anje]

Satan 'knows' and understands who God is...


As far as God loving Satan.. nope... disagree strongly...

if He did.. then He would of provided a Way for Redemption for him and those that followed him..

as far as God taking satan back? nope.. his fate is sealed and its Written in God's Word.. God cannot lie... and if He did.. then He would become a liar and deviate from His Word..

For it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to Lie...

sympathy for the devil? not from this camp....

Jesus has revealed to me so many times the times and occasions when he has tried to wipe me out.. even when I was a toddler.. why? because he hates God , man, and he hates the elect of God.. with a passion.. I have NO SYMPATHY FOR HIM AT ALL.... and I remind him of his fate and his upcoming expulsion from the heavens and into the Lake of Fire..

This is why Jesus came here .. to destroy the Works of the devil...

and He Did.. by hanging on that bloody tree..

It Is Finshed........

Very nicely said.

[Bible2]

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #34 of this thread:

Again,,, the question is,, “Why does satan think he can win?” , Not,
whether or not you believe he thinks he can win. The wording of the
question is the only reason I join the discussion, not to defend the
position.

Greetings.

If someone asks a question that we believe incorrectly assumes
something, we should still respond. For example, if someone asks,
"Why is God evil?", we should respond with "God is not evil", instead
of trying to wrack our brains to invent some reason why God is evil.
In the same way, when someone asks "Why does Satan think he can
win?”, we should respond with "Satan doesn't think that he can win,
in the sense of overthrowing the infinite, omnipotent YHWH himself",
instead of trying to wrack our brains trying to invent some reason
why Satan thinks he can win in that sense.

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #34 of this thread:

Well, satan has deceived himself in believing there is a flaw in the
Creator, because the created image of himself is flawed. I guess I
should have said imperfect, and made myself more clear so that
there was less chance of my comments being taken out of context,
as many do The Word.

Can one give a specific example where one feels that the Word of
God has been taken out of context, so we can look at that? Note
that no scripture says or requires that Satan has deceived himself
into believing that there is a flaw/imperfection in the infinite,
omnipotent YHWH. If Satan tries to claim that Adam was created
flawed/imperfect because Adam disobeyed God, then Satan will have
to admit that Satan himself was created flawed/imperfect because
Satan himself disobeyed God. But the Word of God says that Satan
(as Lucifer) was created perfect (Ezekiel 28:15), and if Satan wants
to believe that he is still perfect/unflawed even though he disbobeys
God, then he would have to say that mankind too is still perfect/
unflawed even though it disobeys God. So Satan is caught: either
both he and man were created perfect/unflawed and both became
imperfect/flawed solely by their own free-willed choice to disobey
God, or both Satan and man were created imperfect/flawed. But the
latter case is prohibited by the Word of God, for not only was Satan
created perfect/unflawed, so was man (Genesis 1:31).

RevJWWhiteJr posted in message #34 of this thread:

You inferred free will to be the imperfection. It is not.

Note that it has not been inferred that free will is an imperfection/
flaw. Indeed, it was expressly stated in post #33 of this thread that
"Free will is not a flaw, for God has it and he has no flaws".

[sudds]

This is a good discussion and very good comments. I read through them all but I didn't see anyone use the following scriptures that might give some light.

John 1:4. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
John 1:5. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

I Peter 1:12. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things (God's redemptive plan) that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

The verses in John tells me that Satan just didn't understand God's redemptive plan, which is still going on. The verse in I Peter confirms that Satan (who is a creative angel) didn't understand. Of course, he did know/use scripture, but he didn't understand the meaning of Ps 91:12, the verse he used during the wilderness temptations of Jesus.

It is probably beyond our comprehension why Satan is like he is. I like the illustration that Reynold 357 used. Another example is the actions of Adolf Hitler. During the final hours of Hitler's life, he gave orders to his army to continue destroying Germany's infrastructure knowing he was defeated. He also allowed the holocaust to continue up to the bitter end.....now does Hitler's actions make sense to a reasonable person?

I think Adolf Hitler was like Satan. Satan is a super intelligent being, but is insane.

[Bible2]

sudds posted in message #39 of this thread:

John 1:4. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
John 1:5. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has
not understood it.

I Peter 1:12. It was revealed to them that they were not serving
themselves but you, when they spoke of the things (God's
redemptive plan) that have now been told you by those who have
preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.
Even angels long to look into these things.

The verses in John tells me that Satan just didn't understand God's
redemptive plan, which is still going on. The verse in I Peter confirms
that Satan (who is a creative angel) didn't understand.

Greetings.

Note that the original Greek word in John 1:5 translated as
"comprehended" doesn't have to mean understand, as in grasping
with the mind (as it's used in Acts 10:34, for example); it can mean
grasping something physically, as in gaining physical control over
something (as it's used in Mark 9:18 and John 8:3-4, for example).
So John 1:5 can mean the light shines in the darkness, but the
darkness has not overpowered it. Even Satan, the epitome of
spiritual darkness, knows that he can never overpower the infinite,
omnipotent YHWH himself, who is light and in whom there is no
darkness at all (1 John 1:5).

Also note that the original Greek word in 1 Peter 1:12 translated as
"look" simply means to physically lean over (such as to physically
peer into something), as it's used in Luke 24:12, for example; it
doesn't contain the meaning of "understand". For angels do
understand God's redemptive plan; that's why, for example, an angel
even announced it to the shepherds (Luke 2:10-11), and why an
angel will announce it from heaven to the whole world during the
tribulation (Revelation 14:6). All unfallen angels could desire to lean
over and "look into" the Bible to see God's redemptive plan (1 Peter
1:12) spelled out so clearly (e.g. Isaiah 53, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4),
just as Christians should desire to lean over and "look into" what the
Bible teaches (James 1:25).

But this doesn't require that any of the fallen angels, including Satan,
don't understand full well what God's redemptive plan is, much less
God's plans for them. Even demons know the fate of everlasting
torment they are going to receive at God's hands at a certain time
(Matthew 8:29, cf. 25:41). And Satan himself will know mid-
tribulation that his time is short (Revelation 12:12b), before Jesus
returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30) and
sends forth an angel to bind Satan in the bottomless pit during the
millennium (Revelation 20:1-3).

[Bible2]

sudds posted in message #39 of this thread:

Of course, he did know/use scripture, but he didn't understand the
meaning of Ps 91:12, the verse he used during the wilderness
temptations of Jesus.

Actually, nothing requires that Satan didn't know the meaning of
Psalms 91:12, or that he doesn't know the meaning of every other
verse in the Bible, including those verses which so clearly show his
eternal fate of everlasting torment in the lake of fire, after the
millennium and the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-10).

sudds posted in message #39 of this thread:

It is probably beyond our comprehension why Satan is like he is.

The Bible ascribes Satan's fall to his pride over his own magnificence
in his unfallen state (Ezekiel 28:17).

sudds posted in message #39 of this thread:

Another example is the actions of Adolf Hitler. During the final hours
of Hitler's life, he gave orders to his army to continue destroying
Germany's infrastructure knowing he was defeated. He also allowed
the holocaust to continue up to the bitter end.....now does Hitler's
actions make sense to a reasonable person?

I think Adolf Hitler was like Satan. Satan is a super intelligent being,
but is insane.

How can Hitler's actions be used to support the idea that Satan
doesn't know that he can't win, when one admits that Hitler knew he
couldn't win? Satan could go on being evil even though he knows he
can never defeat the infinite, omnipotent YHWH Himself, for the same
reason that Hitler went on being evil even after he realized that he
could never defeat the Allied forces: not necessarily insanity, but
instead just a supreme pride and stubbornness, a refusal to bow
down and surrender to anyone, even if it means that one is
completely defeated. And Satan could know that he will be
completely defeated in the end no matter what he does, even if he
surrendered to God today; just as Hitler was sane enough to know
that he would be tried and hanged by an Allied tribunal, even if he
came out of his bunker and personally surrendered to the Allied
forces, and grovelled before them and kissed their feet. So not only
pride could be involved with Satan, but now also total despair.