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Thread: Christ's Sacrifice.

  1. #1
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    Christ's Sacrifice.

    I don't intend for the following to be insulting, i am merely wanting to understand something fundamental to the Christian religion.

    Namely the nature of Jesus dieing on the cross.

    I will accept for the point of this question that Jesus both a real historical figure, and was truly the messiah.

    My question relates to the nature of his "sacrifice".

    Namely...just what exactly did he loose?

    I know he "died" a very unpleasent and slow death. But in the context of the times that manner of death was far from remarkable.

    Consider..he knew he was God. He knew that he would go to Heaven.

    He also came back to Earth for a while after his death and ressurection.

    So his grand "sacrifice" was in fact a temporary thing anyway.

    So apart from the suffering, just what exactly constitutes his sacrifice?

    As i understand things he didn't even actually "pay" for all our supposed sin.

    Put it another way, if Jesus/God had truly wanted to pay for all our sins...and if Hell is actually necessary, then would Hell have but one accupant?

    Jesus himself?

    Surely the only way for an immortal/supreme being to "Die" for us would actually be to...actually die? Or failing that actually "do our time" for us?

  2. #2
    Actually, there is a great response to this entire argument in a sermon I once heard preached.

    The sermon is The Reach of the Cross, here in PDF format.

    I'd provide the answer myself, but the sermon does such a good job that there's really no point to me saying anything, other than I can clarify some questions you have after reading the text.

    In short, the sacrifice was far more than purely physical - it extended into the spiritual realm and into all eternity, a pain that none of us can imagine.

  3. #3
    Jesus was God in the flesh, and perfectly sinless.

    As humans, we get mad when we get blamed for things other people did. Don't you?

    Now imagine you had to pay a price for all those who have aborted babies, murdered young girls, raped children, etc. Imagine you are saddled with the weight of so many horrible crimes that you did not commit, and yet had to suffer for.

    Now imagine you are pefect like God, and cannot stand even a whiff of sin, and yet you have to pay for the sins of humanity in order to save them?

    Imperfect words from me, just a man. But that's sort of the thing. He is a perfectly holy God, and He stooped to help a sinner like me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maybrick View Post
    I will accept for the point of this question that Jesus both a real historical figure, and was truly the messiah.

    My question relates to the nature of his "sacrifice".

    Namely...just what exactly did he loose?
    ...
    So apart from the suffering, just what exactly constitutes his sacrifice?
    I think your point is that Jesus sacrificed nothing since He knew the result of His sacrifice; Jesus suffered and was crucified, but He knew He would rise again, thus there was no real sacrifice.
    Quote Originally Posted by maybrick
    As i understand things he didn't even actually "pay" for all our supposed sin.

    Put it another way, if Jesus/God had truly wanted to pay for all our sins...and if Hell is actually necessary, then would Hell have but one accupant?

    Jesus himself?

    Surely the only way for an immortal/supreme being to "Die" for us would actually be to...actually die? Or failing that actually "do our time" for us?
    This clarifies your view very well. You propose that if Jesus didn't remain dead then there was no sacrifice and He didn't pay for anything. This is exactly opposite of what Christianity holds and it is good for you to want to undertand this seeming contradiction in your mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by maybrick
    I don't intend for the following to be insulting, i am merely wanting to understand something fundamental to the Christian religion.
    Fair enough. But realize first that Christianity is about death to life, and not life to death.

    To examine the context of Jesus' sacrifice correctly, consider the following definition (one of many) for sacrifice: the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

    I want to look at that kind of sacrifice in more human terms for a moment. Consider a dad that works the second job to put his kids through college. To do this he puts his golf clubs in the attick for a while. After a few years and seeing all his kids graduate college, he takes his golf clubs out of the attick and enjoys playing golf with his kids on the golf course. Now according to the definition that you want to employ for sacrifice, this dad sacrificed nothing. There are probably a lot of kids that agree with you.

    However, the choice existed for the dad to do it or not. He chose to do it because he believed that his leisure time was less important than his kid's education. Also, the dad knew that his sacrifice would work. The sacrifice had a purpose or a goal to achieve.

    With that in mind, we can look at a few scriptures that explain how Jesus' death on our behalf is so fundamental to the Christian religion. The very first thing to understand is that Jesus' mission had a purpose, a goal to be achieved. The second thing to understand is that Jesus did this on our behalf, to do something for us that we could not otherwise have participated in.

    The mission:

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    To understand the difference between Christianity and your concept of Jesus remaining dead, we have to present the rest of the mission...

    14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    So the plan wasn't for Jesus to just die, the plan was for Jesus to be victorious over death on man's behalf. We are beholden to death. We aren't getting around that one. But Jesus, by becoming a man, could then likewise die, but even more, could live again and thus declare victory over death for us. It was the mission. Here is Jesus telling His disciples about His mission:

    Mark 10:32 ... And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

    33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

    34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

    ...
    45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    So Jesus understood His mission and that it included suffering, death, and to rise again the third day. Jesus refers to Himself as a servant, as one ministering, giving His life for mankind so that mankind might be ransomed from death unto life.

    Regarding Jesus' sacrifice to accomplish the mission, consider the following:

    Hebrews 12:1 ...let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

    2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

    The endurance of Jesus in His mission is a great contradiction to consider when we understand that He did not have to face death or suffer at the hands of men with darkened hearts.

    Here is another passage regarding Jesus' sacrifice:

    Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


    If Jesus had remained dead then His mission would have been a failure, He would have sacrificed nothing because nothing would have been accomplished on our behalf. By "paying" death, Jesus also was victorious over death, being resurrected to life the third day. In doing this as a man, Jesus has "paid death", or satisfied the debt of death, for mankind. Now whether we will regard Jesus' sacrifice and whether we will apply His payment on our behalf is a matter of faith.

    In any event, I hope this helps you to understand Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf in a different light.

    God Bless!
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

  5. #5
    God is a just God. If you become His enemy (following the devil a.k.a. sinning) you deserve the death penalty, for you have deserted your creator.

    The reason scales are a symbol for justice is that you're being weight what your worth. By sinning you become less worth then you can pay for the corruption/damage you caused in yourself and around you.

    Jesus was the only one who died and did not sin. That's why He was the only one who was worth enough to pay off justice for the sake of us all. In other words, Jesus was worth enough to pay for all our sins.

    This was the only way God could save everyone by mercy and still remain just (no punishment for sins is afterall not justice!).

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    Lots to digest, and i thank you all for the replies.

    One question has occurred to me though.

    I hear a lot about "sin". And i gather its basically anything that displeases God?

    Is there a better definition? The Ten Commandments don't really count as a list, as God himself doesn't follow them. And i assume he isn't supposed to be a hypocrit.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by maybrick View Post
    Lots to digest, and i thank you all for the replies.

    One question has occurred to me though.

    I hear a lot about "sin". And i gather its basically anything that displeases God?

    Is there a better definition? The Ten Commandments don't really count as a list, as God himself doesn't follow them. And i assume he isn't supposed to be a hypocrit.
    In what way does God not follow the 10 commandments, in your opinion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by maybrick View Post
    Lots to digest, and i thank you all for the replies.

    One question has occurred to me though.

    I hear a lot about "sin". And i gather its basically anything that displeases God?

    Is there a better definition? The Ten Commandments don't really count as a list, as God himself doesn't follow them. And i assume he isn't supposed to be a hypocrit.
    Really? Can you give solid examples ? Scripture references ?

    MATT 7
    1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by maybrick View Post
    Lots to digest, and i thank you all for the replies.

    One question has occurred to me though.

    I hear a lot about "sin". And i gather its basically anything that displeases God?

    Is there a better definition? The Ten Commandments don't really count as a list, as God himself doesn't follow them. And i assume he isn't supposed to be a hypocrit.
    Sin is any action (internal or external) that seeks to work against both the will and nature of God, specifically born out of the inner desire to be autonomous from God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maybrick View Post
    I hear a lot about "sin". And i gather its basically anything that displeases God?

    Is there a better definition?
    That isn't such a bad definition. But we must realize that God is consistent in what displeases Him, so what is sin today is sin tomorrow. In other words, what pleases God is objective. Where God makes known His will to us, then man sins when he transgresses God's will.

    God Bless!
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markinro View Post
    Really? Can you give solid examples ? Scripture references ?

    MATT 7
    1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
    The two that jump to mind are the ox coveting...

    God declares he is a jealous god.

    And of course "Thou shall not kill"

    God does a lot of killing.

    The 32 virgins demanded as sacrifice to the Lord in Numbers 31, Lots wife (ignoring the rest of Sodom and Gomorah), the plagues of Egypt (didn't he "harden Pharoh's heart"...so was directly responsible for all those deaths), the many deaths of the Israelites themselves while in the desert,
    the couple that "drop dead" in the Paul book...for not giving enough money.

    And there are many more.

    The list of Gods murders literally is as big as the bible...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by wanting_peace View Post
    Think about it... If you had a blameless person, a person who started many foundations, helped third world countries, donated money to the homeless, etc. but never accepted Jesus as his Lord and personal savior--Does God send him to hell for all of ETERNITY? Ridiculous isn't it?

    And what is sin? Is cursing a sin? Is not picking up litter and throwing it away that you passed while walking to work sin?
    Yes that's all sinning. And everyone has sinned. (btw. I don't believe in a hell 'for all eternity'. But thats a different discussion.)

    Quote Originally Posted by wanting_peace View Post
    And with this topic.... If God is God, why does he have to die on the cross to forgive us of our sin? He could just forgive us, couldn't he? As God, all you have to do is forgive, and boom, you're forgiven.
    I would like you to read my previous post for an answer to this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by maybrick View Post
    The two that jump to mind are the ox coveting... God declares he is a jealous god. And of course "Thou shall not kill"

    God does a lot of killing.

    The 32 virgins demanded as sacrifice to the Lord in Numbers 31, Lots wife (ignoring the rest of Sodom and Gomorah), the plagues of Egypt (didn't he "harden Pharoh's heart"...so was directly responsible for all those deaths), the many deaths of the Israelites themselves while in the desert,
    the couple that "drop dead" in the Paul book...for not giving enough money.

    And there are many more.

    The list of Gods murders literally is as big as the bible...
    If you would 'create' a computer which could think for itself and would set your house on fire, would you not pull the plug? God is not a murderer, He is your creator and thus your owner. He wants us not to kill because He is the only rightful judge. He is the only one who has the right to kill.

    [quote=maybrick;2028287]the couple that "drop dead" in the Paul book...for not giving enough money.[quote]

    That wasn't about the amount of money... It was for betraying God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maybrick View Post
    The two that jump to mind are the ox coveting...

    God declares he is a jealous god.

    And of course "Thou shall not kill"

    God does a lot of killing.

    The 32 virgins demanded as sacrifice to the Lord in Numbers 31, Lots wife (ignoring the rest of Sodom and Gomorah), the plagues of Egypt (didn't he "harden Pharoh's heart"...so was directly responsible for all those deaths), the many deaths of the Israelites themselves while in the desert,
    the couple that "drop dead" in the Paul book...for not giving enough money.

    And there are many more.

    The list of Gods murders literally is as big as the bible...
    Scripture references please...oh, and the version - KJV, ASV, NIV, etc

  14. #14
    Where does it say "Do not kill?" The Hebrew says, "Do not murder."

    God doesn't murder anyone - He does kill a lot of people, but He is always just in His killing.

    What did you think of the sermon I linked you to? Did you read it? If so, what are your thoughts?

    If you have questions about the Old Testament passages of the Israelites and things of that nature, there's another article you should read that I could link you to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markinro View Post
    Scripture references please...oh, and the version - KJV, ASV, NIV, etc
    Numbers 31. All the versions i checked via Biblegateway.

    32 virgins given to god. I very much doubt that meant "sent to a convent".

    Acts 5 Ananias and Sapphira. They kinda just drop dead...Again all the versions i checked.

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