Fighting and Christianity

[Muaythai]

For more info about me read my introduction post and you'll probably understand why I am asking this

I have a question that might make a good discussion... For many years I have kickboxed / fought in Muaythai competitions.
What do you guys think of fighting / martial arts competition in terms of religion?

Obviously the aim of these sports in many uneducated peoples eyes is to 'hurt your opponent'. However to Kickboxers / Martial Artists the aims of these competitions are to win by proving better skills and ability. Actually in amateur boxing for example there is apparently around a 1 in 60 KO ratio nour days.

I think it depends how you approach the sport... obviously in a sport where you enter a ring and are allowed to knee and elbow each other in the face it is easy to let hate and violence take over your mind set. I think this is 'evil', if you get in the ring to hurt someone seriously... but I think if you see it as a competition and your opponent sees it the same way it's acceptable.

I guess valid points are:
You could end up damaging yourself.
You could end up hurting or even killing another human being.
You are opening your mind to negative foughts and emotions.

I can honestly say that when I fight that is never on my mind, I fight in a ring as a display of skill and for my own enjoyment... people have called me 'smiler' before because I'm always so happy and friendly both inside and outside of the ring (which is very rare for fighters I guess).

In some countries (Thailand for example) it is seen as a Religious/National sport (kickboxing) and before each fight they pay their respects to God, family and place of birth...

Anyway, I thought I would ask peoples opinions... seeing as I am new here

[ilovemetal]

For more info about me read my introduction post and you'll probably understand why I am asking this

I have a question that might make a good discussion... For many years I have kickboxed / fought in Muaythai competitions.
What do you guys think of fighting / martial arts competition in terms of religion?

Obviously the aim of these sports in many uneducated peoples eyes is to 'hurt your opponent'. However to Kickboxers / Martial Artists the aims of these competitions are to win by proving better skills and ability. Actually in amateur boxing for example there is apparently around a 1 in 60 KO ratio nour days.

I think it depends how you approach the sport... obviously in a sport where you enter a ring and are allowed to knee and elbow each other in the face it is easy to let hate and violence take over your mind set. I think this is 'evil', if you get in the ring to hurt someone seriously... but I think if you see it as a competition and your opponent sees it the same way it's acceptable.

i don't have a probem with it, personally. i see it as a sport, like rugby (which people also get hurt) or soccer, or football...i think the skill level it taks as well exceeds that of any of the sports i mentioned, (maybe because MMA is the only one of done), so i have profound respect for skilled fighters.

I guess valid points are:
You could end up damaging yourself.
You could end up hurting or even killing another human being.
You are opening your mind to negative foughts and emotions.

sure, but the same could be said for may things, and sports (mentioned above).

I can honestly say that when I fight that is never on my mind, I fight in a ring as a display of skill and for my own enjoyment... people have called me 'smiler' before because I'm always so happy and friendly both inside and outside of the ring (which is very rare for fighters I guess).

In some countries (Thailand for example) it is seen as a Religious/National sport (kickboxing) and before each fight they pay their respects to God, family and place of birth...

Anyway, I thought I would ask peoples opinions... seeing as I am new here

I've seen George St Perre fight, and he's amazing, and also has much respect for his opponient. Most these guys on UFC don't actually fight with rage, and after most matches they shake, or tap gloves or hug. Sure there room for the devil, but what about hockey? think of it? there are usually fights every gave, and those are strickly out of anger, and people sometimes get hurt.

i also think your underestimateing the power of words. I can't think of examples, but as we go about our lives, i'd say theres more oppertunity for words to damage people deeper than a couple 5 min rounds kicking someones face in.

yeah.

[Muaythai]

Awesome response, thank you

[Revinius]

Christians are over-represented in combat sports.

Just thought i would throw that out there.

[livingwaters]

Muaythai, I want you to know, you may already know, that Chuck Norris is a Christian and he also, does martial arts, big time...or at least he did. I know he teaches martial arts now, to underprivilaged kids, I think. He and his wife also, have in some states, placed a curriculum for the Bible to be studied as a course in high school. That is truly awesome. There are many Christians in the sport world. I watch them all the time on TBN...

May you continue to strive to do your best, no matter what you do, give your all!!! Maybe one day, you'll come back on and tell us you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

God bless

[Izdaari]

Hi! I'm a martial artist too, formerly Karate, currently JKD. I don't fight competitively but I have no problem with it, and I enjoy watching MMA matches on TV.

[Biastai]

I personally prefer the grappling aspect of fighting more. In training I've found that people who have bad intentions/attitude as a martial arts student, i.e. hurting others their only aim, disrespecting each other, are generally those who don't last. In training and competition, I've seen the most polite, encouraging, and respectful environments even among opponents from rival schools. So even from my slender bit of experience, I will definitely say you most surely can display Christian qualities brightly in martials arts training and competition.

Demain Maia even wants to take it a step farther judging from comments made after his submission victory on UFC Fight Night this past February when he said, "I want to show the world my jiujitsu. And I want to show you can become champion without hurting your opponent." (For those confused about this quote, this guy is a wizard in groundfighting and can end a fight quickly with a choke or armlock).

But kudos to the OP. I could never do Muay Thai. I'd have to go to work with a headache every morning.

[watchinginawe]

It is taught that the Apostle Paul was a boxer. Boxing apparently was part of his Jewish formal education. In many places in his writings in the Bible, Paul employs boxing metaphors and many other sports metaphors (like running competitively). I am not sure that he continued boxing after he was converted, but I don't find anywhere that he condemns the practice. Here is sample of scripture where Paul uses a boxing metaphor:

I Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


There is a movie (actually a mini-series) where Anthony Hopkins played the Apostle Paul called "Peter and Paul". Theatrically, it was very entertaining IMO. Not perfectly accurate, but worth watching. I think in this movie portrayal of Paul, it starts out with Paul (which before he was converted was Saul) boxiing. This particular movie will surely be in movie rental stores if you want to give it a look. I hope I am not remembering the wrong movie though.

God Bless!

[tt1106]

I have a problem with it. If you look at many civilizations, you can see their level of development by their sports. Rome and the Gladiator days.
etc. Personally, I used to watch MMA all the time. Now, I don't enjoy the sport. I believe it would be difficult as a Christian, to put aside Pride and still seek a submission. The whole point of MMA is to beat your opponent until he gives up. I find the attittudes don't really represent Christ either.
I try to model my behavior after Christ. Would Christ take part in a competition that's sole purpose is to destroy another human being?
In addition, let's be real. They have scantilly clad ring girls, and they serve alcohol at many of the MMA events.
None of this, Christ would approve of.
As far as normal Martial Arts, I believe those can be cathartic and can help with your health. But I think the two are mutually exclusive.
This would not apply to all sports. Soccer is different to me than MMA.


Be Blessed.

tt1106

[Muaythai]

Muaythai isn't MMA...

I havn't decided what I believe in yet... given.

BUT...

Before every Muaythai fight I have had in a ring I have prayed for myself and my opponent... I am not saying this gives me a right to try and hurt them, but I mean to say that although it is easy to say 'you couldnt put your will to destroy someone aside' I do not believe that correct.

I spar 6 days a week in the gym with some of my best friends, I have never struck them with the intent of seriously injuring them and that I can recall I have never in a fight struck someone with the intent to injure them. It's hard to describe a boxers mind set when in the ring, but esspecially at my weight class it is very hard to knock someone out and it's the kind of thing that you don't think about. If someone is covering you look for openings, it is what you are trained to do... You don't look to 'break their face' if that makes sense.

Like you said, MMA there are guys who walk in the cage to hurt people... Nick Diaz, BJ Penn or Wanderli Silva would be an example. Look at Rich Franklin or Anderson Silva or Matt Hughes... All are followers of a God and I've heard all three of them appologise in ADVANCE about if they knock an opponent out. I VERY MUCH DOUBT people have heard of a guy named Sami Berrik, but he is well known for having knocked opponents out, immediatly jumping to their side and helping them recover.

In my opinion you both step in to a ring and you say to each other:
"We are going to express our bodies (fight) to the best of our abilities. In order to do this we have to pass each others defence and land a strike."
By entering a ring you are saying to your opponent "You can't knock me out" and any educated fighter will know that a knock out against a good opponent is unlikely and a points decision is what should be contested. I would never step into a ring if I thought I was going to get hurt or knocked out...

[Ixthus]

You can kill your opponent in almost any sport. Take basketball for example, if you go jump and collide, when you both fall the other could land on his head. Is that ungodly? I don't believe it is.

[tt1106]

In my opinion there is a huge gulf of difference between contact fighting sports and a thrown elbow in Basketball. The purpose of basketball is to score points by putting a ball in a hoop. Just as the purpose of football is to score points by crossing a goal line. The purpose of MMA is to score points by cutting off oxygen to someone's brain or making them lose enough blood that the fight is stopped. Eastern fighting arts that have progressed into sports, such as muay thai and most other martial arts have grounded rules and I can see a ddifference between those sports and MMA. As a dabbler in Tae Kwon do and Akido I recognie the value in the techniques and have used several of them in my 22 years as a law enforcement officer.
MMA is not that way at all.
The fact that it is experiencing endorsement and widespread growth on THIS EARTH should indicate exactly who is the driving force behind it.

Brother, I think the analogy between Basketball and MMA is hugely flawed. My reasons are above.
It's ok to disagree though.
As my objectiion is much more strongly focused on MMA than other Martial Arts, I would ask one question:
How does MMA or Pride glorify God?

[RedBird777]

I've been a martial artist for 14 years, and I put MUCH emphasis on "art".

It is definitely fun doing a sport, i.e. Muaythai. It's fun challenging an oppnent, and it is fun pinning your skills against another. HOWEVER, I have a problem with people thinking that martial arts is ONLY a sport. As Masutatsu Oyama once said, "Karate is Budo and if Budo is removed from Karate it is nothing more than sport karate, show karate, or even fashion karate-the idea of training merely to be fashionable."
Now the tricky stuff with martial arts and Christianity is a part of the "art" part of karate. Since I can rant and rave for hours on end as to how sport is not a martial art, I'll just skip over the 1,000,000,000,000,000 words I could say and repeat.
As you can tell, I'm pretty passionate about the subject.

SO...martial arts...There is a very big influence from Buddhism in Eastern Martial Arts. Usually, in modern day dojos, the school of thought for meditation is to clear your mind, which is harmless. However, where martial arts and Christianity will NOT see eye-to-eye on is the spiritual aspect of martial arts. The thing with the spiritual is to be spiritually aware of your surroundings (notice the ki (also "chi" or "qi")), and spiritually build yourself up through your ki. There are three energies: spiritual, mental and physical. These three energies are all combined together, and when one falls, so will the other two. It is rather an ingenous philosophy because there is some truth behind it. However, it is a Buddhist school of thought where we can achieve inner peace through what we do. Since the Bible COMPLETELY states otherwise (the only peace you will get on this earth is from Jesus), there is a "bad compilation" there.
As long as you stay away from that spiritual side, martial arts is a very healthy thing to do.It keeps your mind focused and your body in shape. Leave the spiritual stuff for God and God only.

[kc989]

Sure there room for the devil, but what about hockey? think of it? there are usually fights every gave, and those are strickly out of anger, and people sometimes get hurt.

Fighting in hockey is very rarely out of rage. If you watch the game long enough you will see that fighters fight fighters. You wont see Eric Godard try and drop the gloves with Crosby.

Sport fighting, in my view is different than "rage" fighting. If someone says someone mean to you in a gas station and you end up beating him up, that is the work of the devil!

But fighting for sport (where respect is given at the end) is just that...sport. God gave us our skills all for different reasons and he WANTS us to use them!