Imminence and the Post-Tribulation Rapture

[jshears]

How can NT passages that seem to teach an imminent (not necessarily a soon, but could happen at any time) rapture be reconciled with a post-tribulational view of the rapture? For example, Jesus said in Matthew:

"37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:37-39)


Jesus depicts a world that is totally unexpectant and is going about their daily routines and rituals. How do you place this in a post-trib scenario where the judgment and wrath of God is falling on the earth and it's obvious that He's coming back?


(Rev. 6:15-17)

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

[David Taylor]

How can NT passages that seem to teach an imminent (not necessarily a soon, but could happen at any time) rapture be reconciled with a post-tribulational view of the rapture?

I don't believe any NT passage teaches imminence, as in defined as 'at any momement'. Rather, the NT teaches expectency, watchfulness, and readiness....not procrastination.

For example, Jesus said in Matthew:

"37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:37-39)

Jesus depicts a world that is totally unexpectant and is going about their daily routines and rituals. How do you place this in a post-trib scenario where the judgment and wrath of God is falling on the earth and it's obvious that He's coming back?

Go back 6 verses, and the context tells you that Jesus' coming is after the tribulation. Similarly, in this chapter is a heavy emphasis on being ready, watchful, and expectant on the Lord's return....but also that many things will happen first, before He returns...so their isn't an 'at any moment' expectation.

Like any era or time on Earth, most of the people within in reject and many downright hate God. They definately don't believe Him or His Bible...so any amount of judgment or wrath will not clue them in...they'll blame it on UFOs, Global Warming, or chance...before they believe or admit it is our Heavenly Father and Creator.

What did the Egyptians do when plagues and wrath were poured down on God? Did they repent? Did they believe? Or did they continue to remain in their unbelief and sin? Same thing will apply at prior to Christ's return.

Unbelievers will not repent from hail raining down upon them...there only hope is the Holy Spirit changing their hearts, and hopefully willing Christians who are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord continuing to share the Gospel of Christ until the end of the World with those who need it so desparately.

(Rev. 6:15-17)
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

At this point it is too late for the wicked to repent. Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you...depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.".

Here is what the state of the wicked will be when Christ returns, continuing on Jesus same Olivet Discourse passage describing His return you mentioned above:

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. "

[jshears]

"37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:37-39)

The passage above certainly doesn't sound like a tribulation scenario. This sounds like life as usual. Whether unbelievers acknowledge the judgments of the tribulation are sent from God or not, by the time you reach the end of the tribulation, it certainly won't be a picture like Jesus gave in Matt. 24. In Contrast, you read that all the nations will be gathering together at Armageddon when he comes in Rev. 19. 1 Thess. though, tells us that when he comes, people will be saying "peace and safety." It's difficult to harmonize the scriptures using a post-trib viewpoint.

[jshears]

The Scriptures do teach watchfulness, expectancy, preparedness. Why? Because Jesus could come back today. A post-trib rapture attempts to teach that until certain signs occur, the Church need not worry about the Lord returning. The pre-trib view teaches that the Lord will return at an hour that we think not.

Matt. 24:42-51
"42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

[billy-brown 2]

The Scriptures do teach watchfulness, expectancy, preparedness.

Of course, we are to obey the passage in Revelation 22:17 (and the context):

Revelation 22:17 (and the context):
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

But is the statement here

Why? Because Jesus could come back today.

possible at all?

Let's consider Acts 3:11-21:

Acts 3:11-21 (and the context)
11 While he was clinging to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them at the so-called portico of Solomon, full of amazement.
12 But when Peter saw this, he replied to the people, “Men of Israel, why are you amazed at this, or why do you gaze at us, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk?
13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him.
14 “But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.
16 “And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.
17 “And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.
18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Now, has all things spoken of by the holy prophets been restored as of today?

Well, only when all things spoken of by the holy apostles has been restored will Jesus the Christ "come back" (at least, it seems to me).

[John146]

"37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:37-39)

The passage above certainly doesn't sound like a tribulation scenario. This sounds like life as usual. Whether unbelievers acknowledge the judgments of the tribulation are sent from God or not, by the time you reach the end of the tribulation, it certainly won't be a picture like Jesus gave in Matt. 24. In Contrast, you read that all the nations will be gathering together at Armageddon when he comes in Rev. 19. 1 Thess. though, tells us that when he comes, people will be saying "peace and safety." It's difficult to harmonize the scriptures using a post-trib viewpoint.

It isn't difficult if you interpret them in context. You seem to have missed the context of Matthew 24:37-39. When does the coming of the Son of Man occur? All you have to do is look a few verses earlier in the chapter.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After the tribulation of those days. It couldn't be more clear. Think about World War 2. Did that war make people think that Jesus was about to come? No. Not unbelievers, at least. Even when that war was going on, many people were still going about their daily business and not worrying about what was going on and not wondering whether Jesus was about to come back or not. That's where I think you're mistaken. You are thinking that a time of tribulation would lead people to think that Jesus might be coming back soon, but that isn't the case for unbelievers.

[John146]

The Scriptures do teach watchfulness, expectancy, preparedness. Why? Because Jesus could come back today. A post-trib rapture attempts to teach that until certain signs occur, the Church need not worry about the Lord returning. The pre-trib view teaches that the Lord will return at an hour that we think not.

Matt. 24:42-51
"42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Again, there's one big problem with you trying to use this passage to support pre-trib. Matthew 24 clearly teaches post-trib. You're taking that passage out of context.

[Bible2]

jshears posted in message #1 of this thread:

How can NT passages that seem to teach an imminent (not
necessarily a soon, but could happen at any time) rapture be
reconciled with a post-tribulational view of the rapture? For example,
Jesus said in Matthew:

"37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the
Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they
were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the
day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so
shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:37-39)

Jesus depicts a world that is totally unexpectant and is going about
their daily routines and rituals. How do you place this in a post-trib
scenario where the judgment and wrath of God is falling on the earth
and it's obvious that He's coming back?

(Rev. 6:15-17)

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men,
and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman,
and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of
the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from
the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of
the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to
stand?

Greetings.

Matthew 24:37 refers to the same coming of the Son of man that
Jesus had just referred to in Matthew 24:30. Matthew 24:29 shows
that it will be post-trib.

The unsaved people in the days of Noah could have seen or heard
about Noah building an ark for a flood from YHWH, but they could
still have not believed that any flood would really come, so that
when it came they were taken totally by surprise. In the same way,
the unsaved people in the tribulation could see the vials of YHWH's
wrath during the final stage of the tribulation (Revelation 16), but
they could still not believe that Revelation 19:11-21 will really
happen. They could have been deceived into thinking that Jesus
already returned in the person of the False Prophet of the Antichrist
(Revelation 13:11-18, cf. 19:20), and that the battle of Armageddon
will not be one in which they will be killed by Jesus, but one in which
Lucifer the dragon, the Antichrist, Jesus, and all the armies of the
world will together defeat YHWH (Revelation 16:13-16, 19:19). So
when at Armageddon, the real Jesus suddenly comes back, the
unsaved could be taken totally by surprise.

Regarding Revelation 6:15-17, that could occur during only the first
stage of the coming tribulation, before the arrival of the Antichrist
and his False Prophet mid-tribulation. And the unsaved could be just
as mistaken about the sixth seal being the wrath of God as Job was
mistaken about his sufferings being the wrath of God (Job 19:11)
instead of the wrath of Satan.

[Bible2]

jshears posted in message #3 of this thread:

"37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the
Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they
were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the
day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so
shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:37-39)

The passage above certainly doesn't sound like a tribulation scenario.
This sounds like life as usual. Whether unbelievers acknowledge the
judgments of the tribulation are sent from God or not, by the time
you reach the end of the tribulation, it certainly won't be a picture
like Jesus gave in Matt. 24. In Contrast, you read that all the
nations will be gathering together at Armageddon when he comes in
Rev. 19. 1 Thess. though, tells us that when he comes, people will
be saying "peace and safety." It's difficult to harmonize the
scriptures using a post-trib viewpoint.

After the vials of YHWH's wrath, near the end of the tribulation
(Revelation 16), the unsaved could be deceived into thinking that
they're still going to be okay, that they survived the best YHWH
could throw at them from heaven, and that when YHWH himself tries
to invade the earth he will be totally defeated at Armageddon. So
they could eat and drink and marry without any worries.

Regarding the unsaved declaring "peace and safety" (1 Thessalonians
5:3), that could happen when the two witnesses will be killed by the
Antichrist (Revelation 11:7) at the end of the 1,260 days, or 42
months (Revelation 11:2b-3, 13:5b). For the world will party in relief
at the death of the two witnesses (Revelation 11:10), thinking that
the plagues from YHWH (Revelation 11:6) are all over with, that now
the world will have peace and safety. The world won't realize that
the vials of YHWH's wrath (Revelation 16) are about to fall upon it.

[Bible2]

jshears posted in message #4 of this thread:

The Scriptures do teach watchfulness, expectancy, preparedness.
Why? Because Jesus could come back today. A post-trib rapture
attempts to teach that until certain signs occur, the Church need
not worry about the Lord returning. The pre-trib view teaches that
the Lord will return at an hour that we think not.

Matt. 24:42-51
"42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in
what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and
would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the
Son of man cometh.
45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made
ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find
so doing.
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his
goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth
his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink
with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not
for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the
hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The scriptures don't teach watchfulness, expectancy, and
preparedness because Jesus could come back today, but because
when Jesus comes back post-trib (Matthew 24:29-30), those
believers who weren't watchful, expectant, and prepared, but had
backslidden into unrepentant sin, will be cut asunder as hypocrites
(Matthew 24:48-51).

Matthew 24:42-51 is referring to the same coming of the Lord
which Jesus has just referred to in Matthew 24:29-31, post-trib.

The post-trib view doesn't teach that until certain signs occur, the
church need not worry about the Lord returning. Instead, the post-
trib view simply teaches that the Lord can't return until certain
signs occur (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).

Jesus won't come and "gather together" (rapture) the church
(2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) until after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29), for when Jesus comes to rapture (and marry)
the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,
Revelation 19:7,20).

Matthew 24:43 shows that we can know when the Lord will return
and still remain watchful for that coming. Matthew 24:44 means that
only if we stop being watchful will we not know when the Lord will
come; compare: "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will
come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will
come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3).

What do you think about these things?

[David Taylor]

A post-trib rapture attempts to teach that until certain signs occur, the Church need not worry about the Lord returning.

You're misinformed about the Post-Trib view.

It most certainly does not teach what you say when you say that "the church need not worry about the Lord returning"; but rather, teaches that the Lord's return is the most significant event that will ever occur in our future; and it is the greatest hope of all the church.

Our job until then, as the Lord tarry's , is to feed His sheep; and to continue taking His gospel out to all peoples, tongues, tribes, and nations.

[divaD]

The pre-trib view teaches that the Lord will return at an hour that we think not.

The pre-trib view teaches that this will undoubtedly occur before the trib. But if the pre-trib view is wrong, and Christ returns post-trib, would this not still be Christ's return at an hour in which one thinks not? Name one pre-tribber that is expecting to go thru the great trib. There isn't one, because this would defeat the whole purpose of the view. So, how could your above statement not still apply, if the pre-trib position is incorrect? A pre-tribber sure isn't expecting the rapture post-trib.

OTOH one can probably argue that if the pre-trib position is correct, then the same could apply to the post-tribber. But seriously tho, whom is going to be more suprized if they are wrong..the pre-tribber or the post-tribber? The pre-tribber of course, since the pre-tribber was not expecting or believing he or she would have to go thru the great trib. Which BTW, the great trib is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of satan, since it will be believers that will be being persecuted. Why in the world would the Lord persecute His own people?

I thus agree with David on this one...the NT teaches expectency, watchfulness, and readiness....not procrastination.



1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

How does one watch for a pre-trib rapture, when there are no signs to watch for?

Look at this passage carefully. There are 2 groups of people being depicted here. Verse 3 are one group. That is the group the Lord will overtake like a thief in the night. The other group, which are like the brethern Paul is addressing in verse 4 and 5, it shows another POV, different than that of verse 3. This group won't be overtaken as thief? Why? Because they're expecting, watching, etc. This doesn't mean they know the day and hour of Christ's return. It means that they are expecting it to happen, and when it does happen, they will be ready for it, because unlike that first group, the 2nd group has been watching and waiting...anticipating it. What I'm then wondering, if all the church is raptured pre-trib, then who are all of these in the 2nd group, in which this day doesn't overtake them like a thief? These verses make no sense if the church is gone before the day of the Lord occurs. How is it then, that these verses make sense to the pre-trib position?




A big mistake many pre-tribbers make, they claim beginning at 1 Thessalonians 5:, Paul simply changed the subject, even tho it's as clear as a bell to some of us that he continued his thoughts from ch 4 into ch 5, and that ch 5 tells us that he has been talking about the day of the Lord in ch 4, or IOW that it occurs at the same time as the rapture. 2 Thessalonians 2 is even further proof that Christ doesn't return until after the man of sin has been revealed. Putting 2 and 2 together then, one can't have a rapture without Christ's return, and that the Scriptures do teach, that Christ's return, the day of the Lord, the rapture...these are all the same event. Scripture further teaches that the rapture and wrath of God occur simeoutanesly, just like it did during the flood in Noah's day. The rapture will be the protection from God's wrath, just like being in the safety of the ark were their protection from God's wrath.

[quiet dove]

The pre-trib view teaches that this will undoubtedly occur before the trib. But if the pre-trib view is wrong, and Christ returns post-trib, would this not still be Christ's return at an hour in which one thinks not? Name one pre-tribber that is expecting to go thru the great trib. There isn't one, because this would defeat the whole purpose of the view. So, how could your above statement not still apply, if the pre-trib position is incorrect? A pre-tribber sure isn't expecting the rapture post-trib.

No, because once the trib begins, rapture or no rapture, we are expecting Christ. In other words, if I see a world leader, if I see disasters increase and come more frequent even than they do now, if I see us all being forced to worship the Beast or die, if I see complete apostacy within "professing" Christianity. Basically a lot more of what we all ready see of all those things, we're gonna know, rapture or no rapture. We are already pretty much all wondering regardless of end time views really, if not, there sure is a lot of us over here in ETC for a bunch of folks that aren't wondering if Jesus will return soon.

[divaD]

No, because once the trib begins, rapture or no rapture, we are expecting Christ. In other words, if I see a world leader, if I see disasters increase and come more frequent even than they do now, if I see us all being forced to worship the Beast or die, if I see complete apostacy within "professing" Christianity. Basically a lot more of what we all ready see of all those things, we're gonna know, rapture or no rapture. We are already pretty much all wondering regardless of end time views really, if not, there sure is a lot of us over here in ETC for a bunch of folks that aren't wondering if Jesus will return soon.

Fair enough. In that case then, perhaps it might be the post-tribber who is the most suprised if the rapture occurs pre-trib, since the post-tribber would be expecting to see some of these things come to pass in which you just mentioned. With that in mind, you do make a good point in that regard.

[Searcher1]

I for one would be very surprised if Jesus doesn't come as a thief during the 6th bowl of wrath, like He said He would. That would be a real shocker for sure. But I am pretty confident He will fulfill these words to a tee.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others;
but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love;
and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth,
and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Always sober, got my helmet on, and watching!

God bless