So there's this guy...

[Shining_Star]

Hi ladies... apologies in advance if this is ridiculously long and/or boring, but I'd appreciate any advice or input you may have...

So, as the title of the thread says - there's this guy. Isn't there always?

I'm almost 23, and have known him since I was 18 - we started university at the same time, and were placed in the same first year accomodation. Since then, we've become really close friends. In fact, I'd now class him as one of my best friends. We've always got along really well - we make each other laugh and have fun together, and we can also talk about the serious stuff... he's been a shoulder to cry on many a time, and most importantly, he's a Christian, and has also been a huge encouragement to me in my own Christian walk.

We attend the same church, and the same Bible study group, which meets every two weeks... so we do see each other a lot. The friendship has always been completely platonic. We do get a few jokey comments in our Bible study group, because we are so close, but we have always just been able to laugh them off.

And then, something changed. Back in November, I was at home visiting my family for the weekend, and he was also in the same city for the day - the reason isn't important, but it wasn't anything to do with me. Anyway, he needed somewhere to stay for the night, so he came and had dinner with us and stayed overnight. Because we've been friends for a few years, he already knew my family, so that was all fine. After dinner, we were hanging out in the same way we always did - just chatting, joking around and listening to music - but when I went to bed that night, I felt weird. I felt like something had just completely changed between us, but couldn't quite put my finger on it. (A couple of months later, my mum confessed that both she and my dad had been really struck by how close we seemed.)

Over the next couple of months, we found ourselves spending more and more time together... and getting on better than ever... I even became aware, for the first time in our friendship, of a little bit of flirtation going on... More people were noticing as well, and by this time I was pretty sure that I liked him. I was also aware that we were going to have to talk about it - we couldn't keep going as we were, as it wouldn't be fair, and if we weren't going to be together, we were going to have to completely rethink our friendship and how much time we spent together...

Just after Christmas, we were out having coffee, and I decided to bring up the subject. Thankfully we were able to have a really good conversation about it - he apologised for sending out mixed signals, but said it was because he'd been thinking about it too (and both of us had started to wonder about it after that night he'd stayed at my house). He was keen to reach a resolution - he didn't want to leave me hanging, lead me on, or give me any false hope. But equally, he said he couldn't truthfully tell me 'a definite no', although he had thought about it and wasn't completely sure it would work out between us. He did say though that he thought I was 'absolutely wonderful' and 'one of his favourite people'

For the last 3 months, he's actually been abroad doing a university placement, so we've not been in contact much - it's given me time enough to realise that I do like him, a lot. I missed him terribly while he was away. Now that he's back, we've gone straight back to how we were before - just getting on extremely well, having fun together, laughing a lot. It's just so easy to be with him. But I'm aware (again) that I don't think we can continue like this... i.e. we either have to make the decision to be together, if we both feel that way about each other, or we have to consciously spend less time together and change how we act towards each other...

We're meeting up on Friday, just to hang out, as I've not seen him much since he came back. If the conversation comes up, I'll welcome it, but if not... well, I don't know. I don't think I even have a question about this. I just kind of wanted to share, as this is the first time I've really liked a guy and have actually had a conversation with him about it, so I guess I just don't know how I should proceed. Other than keeping in prayer about it, which I have been doing - though perhaps not as regularly as I should...

Anyway, sorry for making you all read this... if anyone has any advice or input, I'd welcome it, otherwise I guess I'll keep you updated... if anyone is even interested.

[L'Ange]

Hi ladies... apologies in advance if this is ridiculously long and/or boring, but I'd appreciate any advice or input you may have...

So, as the title of the thread says - there's this guy. Isn't there always?

I'm almost 23, and have known him since I was 18 - we started university at the same time, and were placed in the same first year accomodation. Since then, we've become really close friends. In fact, I'd now class him as one of my best friends. We've always got along really well - we make each other laugh and have fun together, and we can also talk about the serious stuff... he's been a shoulder to cry on many a time, and most importantly, he's a Christian, and has also been a huge encouragement to me in my own Christian walk.

We attend the same church, and the same Bible study group, which meets every two weeks... so we do see each other a lot. The friendship has always been completely platonic. We do get a few jokey comments in our Bible study group, because we are so close, but we have always just been able to laugh them off.

And then, something changed. Back in November, I was at home visiting my family for the weekend, and he was also in the same city for the day - the reason isn't important, but it wasn't anything to do with me. Anyway, he needed somewhere to stay for the night, so he came and had dinner with us and stayed overnight. Because we've been friends for a few years, he already knew my family, so that was all fine. After dinner, we were hanging out in the same way we always did - just chatting, joking around and listening to music - but when I went to bed that night, I felt weird. I felt like something had just completely changed between us, but couldn't quite put my finger on it. (A couple of months later, my mum confessed that both she and my dad had been really struck by how close we seemed.)

Over the next couple of months, we found ourselves spending more and more time together... and getting on better than ever... I even became aware, for the first time in our friendship, of a little bit of flirtation going on... More people were noticing as well, and by this time I was pretty sure that I liked him. I was also aware that we were going to have to talk about it - we couldn't keep going as we were, as it wouldn't be fair, and if we weren't going to be together, we were going to have to completely rethink our friendship and how much time we spent together...

Just after Christmas, we were out having coffee, and I decided to bring up the subject. Thankfully we were able to have a really good conversation about it - he apologised for sending out mixed signals, but said it was because he'd been thinking about it too (and both of us had started to wonder about it after that night he'd stayed at my house). He was keen to reach a resolution - he didn't want to leave me hanging, lead me on, or give me any false hope. But equally, he said he couldn't truthfully tell me 'a definite no', although he had thought about it and wasn't completely sure it would work out between us. He did say though that he thought I was 'absolutely wonderful' and 'one of his favourite people'

For the last 3 months, he's actually been abroad doing a university placement, so we've not been in contact much - it's given me time enough to realise that I do like him, a lot. I missed him terribly while he was away. Now that he's back, we've gone straight back to how we were before - just getting on extremely well, having fun together, laughing a lot. It's just so easy to be with him. But I'm aware (again) that I don't think we can continue like this... i.e. we either have to make the decision to be together, if we both feel that way about each other, or we have to consciously spend less time together and change how we act towards each other...

We're meeting up on Friday, just to hang out, as I've not seen him much since he came back. If the conversation comes up, I'll welcome it, but if not... well, I don't know. I don't think I even have a question about this. I just kind of wanted to share, as this is the first time I've really liked a guy and have actually had a conversation with him about it, so I guess I just don't know how I should proceed. Other than keeping in prayer about it, which I have been doing - though perhaps not as regularly as I should...

Anyway, sorry for making you all read this... if anyone has any advice or input, I'd welcome it, otherwise I guess I'll keep you updated... if anyone is even interested.

Oh, it wasn't boring, but interesting. My question would be, how much hurt might you be if he just wants to be friends? Could you honestly be okay with that? My approach would be direct, personally. I would tell him that I am interested in seeing if we could be more than friends, tell him how much I missed him while he was away, etc. He sounds likely to level with you, too. Maybe he missed you, too.

My feeling is that if you like him "that way" and he still isn't sure, I wouldn't let him have his cake and eat it too. (But then I would be concerned about my own feelings there.) In other words, if he doesn't want to see you as a romantic partner, then don't let him have so much fun being with you! I would start to distance myself to a certain definite degree. Even the nicest people can take others for granted.

[Diggindeeper]

Shining_Star, I just now saw this, and let me tell you...your post is so, SO refreshing! Listen, and listen to me real good.

I see nothing wrong about the way your friendship has advanced. Both of you are doing things the RIGHT, biblical way. You are not rushing into anything. You are not assuming anything. You are just letting time do its wonderful thing!

He could very well be the ONE who God intends for you to spend your life with. You know, that's what marriage is...a lifetime commitment! I offer just don't get overly anxious about anything. Just continue like you have been, and use that wonderful gift of TIME that so many now-a-days just waste or don't heed. TIME is a wonderful gift of God!

Don't rush him.
Don't rush you.

Just let that wonderful young man do the leading now. Man is created that way, to be the pursuer! So, if he's the one, he will let you know, and you will certainly already know in your heart anyway, even before he brings anything up.

Isn't this part exciting? The part that keeps you wondering, and not knowing what's ahead? (Although I do love happy endings...so be sure to keep us updated as time goes on. Okay?)

[LadyinWaiting]

The same thing happened to two of my friends in college. They were lab partners freshman year (I showed up when they were sophomores). Throughout college they were inseparable really. She really liked him, but never said anything. She saw him date other girls, and internally yearned for him but was determined to not pursue a man - she wanted to be pursued.

Well, the end of the first summer I was there, she came running up to me in the hall of the dorm (she was my RA). He and she had been over at her parents' house watching a movie (they were locals), and they were making popcorn in the kitchen, just talking. He walked up to her, hugged her, and said "I love you." - Both of them had talked at length about that being ONLY said to their spouse, as in when they got engaged.

They were engaged shortly thereafter.

So, they never dated a single time. They just were great friends who grew closer and closer until there was no other choice. They've been married for 7 years now, I believe...2 gorgeous children.

Don't force it. What you have is beautiful. It's rare and precious. Make sure you keep your heart in rein until he makes a move. We women can really wear our hearts on our sleeves. It was insanely hard for me to not use the "L" word with my husband...every other guy I'd ever dated passed it off as if it were saying "bless you". There wasn't an abundance of meaning. My DH wouldn't say it though. I wanted to, I needed to, but I refused to be the one to say it first. We courted for a year, shared only 3-4 pecks, then one beautiful day he told me he loved me after a picnic at the beach, then got down on one knee and asked for the rest of my life to show me.

As much as you would want to tell him all, I also recommend just continuing to pray for God to show his Will to both of you in terms of where the friendship should go. He'll take care of the details.

[L'Ange]

The same thing happened to two of my friends in college. They were lab partners freshman year (I showed up when they were sophomores). Throughout college they were inseparable really. She really liked him, but never said anything. She saw him date other girls, and internally yearned for him but was determined to not pursue a man - she wanted to be pursued.

Well, the end of the first summer I was there, she came running up to me in the hall of the dorm (she was my RA). He and she had been over at her parents' house watching a movie (they were locals), and they were making popcorn in the kitchen, just talking. He walked up to her, hugged her, and said "I love you." - Both of them had talked at length about that being ONLY said to their spouse, as in when they got engaged.

They were engaged shortly thereafter.

So, they never dated a single time. They just were great friends who grew closer and closer until there was no other choice. They've been married for 7 years now, I believe...2 gorgeous children.

Don't force it. What you have is beautiful. It's rare and precious. Make sure you keep your heart in rein until he makes a move. We women can really wear our hearts on our sleeves. It was insanely hard for me to not use the "L" word with my husband...every other guy I'd ever dated passed it off as if it were saying "bless you". There wasn't an abundance of meaning. My DH wouldn't say it though. I wanted to, I needed to, but I refused to be the one to say it first. We courted for a year, shared only 3-4 pecks, then one beautiful day he told me he loved me after a picnic at the beach, then got down on one knee and asked for the rest of my life to show me.

As much as you would want to tell him all, I also recommend just continuing to pray for God to show his Will to both of you in terms of where the friendship should go. He'll take care of the details.

The advice above actually sounds very Biblical, which is the best. But I am thinking What if she invests all that time and emotion into the fellow and he really is not interested enough? Then on the other hand, what if she rushes him or he feels she is usurping his masculine role?

Yes, Shining Star, you have a very interesting situation.

Also, I am thinking about Ruth and Boaz. Ruth made a very bold move to let Boaz know she was interested. I know the circumstances were somewhat different then due to the whole issue of a redeemer and so on, but still, she didn't have to be that bold. She did take the initiative, to Boaz's delighted surprise, and certainly wasn't coy!

I'm sure everyone agrees friendship is a wonderful basis for marriage and... "As the Father leads."

[LadyinWaiting]

Ruth was told by her mother-in-law what to do. She didn't act upon her own impulses to follow her heart. She was being obedient to her mother-figure (even said "I will do whatever you say" to Naomi).

She's not "investing" time and energy beyond being a friend to and with him if she continues on the path she's on. There's no losing in cultivating a good friendship. I didn't tell her to be exclusive in attention on this guy. That would be a waste if he isn't interested (I know the loss of that waste from several failed relationships before I met my husband). There is no harm in not leaving the pattern you've been on as a friend.

To continue being a friend with the man while praying for God's will to be revealed in if this is a door that should be closed or one that is supposed to remain open seems to be the best policy when things are so up-in-the-air.

[L'Ange]

Technicaly Naomi was not Ruth's mother-in-law as Ruth's husband had died. I do not see anything Scriptural saying we are to obey in-laws and let them choose our spouses, and of course not former in laws. If Ruth chose, and she did choose, to let Naomi have that leadership role, I think it was done freely from the heart because of her great love for the older woman and not because she was mandated by YHWH to obey.

Your advice may be good though about waiting. I really don't know. Each case is different. Sarah took the role of leader when she told Abraham to get rid of his son, his first born, along with Ishmael's mother. Then YHWH agreed with her, to Abraham's sorrow.

That's why prayer is so essential when the case is not so clear.

[LadyinWaiting]

L'Ange...

I understand your rationale...however
"And it shall be, when he lieth down, that thou shalt mark the place where he shall lie, and thou shalt go in, and uncover his feet, and lay thee down; and he will tell thee what thou shalt do. And she said unto her, All that thou sayest unto me I will do. And she went down unto the floor, and did according to all that her mother in law bade her. "

^The Bible clearly still refers to Naomi as Ruth's mother-in-law. After the death of Ruth's husband she chose to remain with her mother-in-law in an alliance. Boaz was the kinsman redeemer within Naomi's family, not Ruth's.

Rather than go with technicalities, I take the Word at face value. While in our traditions Ruth owed nothing to Naomi in terms of obedience, she was still choosing to obey. Ruth did not come up with the plan, Naomi felt she should provide a home for Ruth (Ruth 3:1). In Ruth 3:16-18, Naomi refers to Ruth as "daughter" which shows a relationship beyond a former-in-law.

So, while I am in agreement with you on prayer being essential...I don't agree with your evaluation in modern terms of Ruth's relationship with her mother-in-law as the Scripture still uses those terms intentionally. Naomi took the role on. Whether Ruth "chose" or not is inconsequential. The Scripture clearly states that she says she would do everything as Naomi said...whether out of respect or not - Ruth didn't act upon her own desire for Boaz but out of Naomi's urging and plan.

And Sarah's situation with her husband not following the Will of God due to his own impatience is a bit different when it comes to a woman who is NOT attached to a man thinking it's her duty to act upon desires and take over the role as pursuer.

Don't get me wrong, there are MANY women who are strong role models and were far from quiet little flowers (look at Esther, Mary, and even those who worked as Missionaries in the NT). However, you will not see an example of a woman initiating a love relationship - only being chosen and pursued when the man or servant felt moved by the Spirit (i.e. Rebekah & Isaac). I believe there is a definite reason. If the woman makes the first move, she sets herself up as initiator in a relationship, the leader. It is clear that the man is to be the leader in the home. Those roles are not easily reversed. When a woman takes over that role, it means the man does not get his rightful place in it.

I initiated conversations with my now-husband. However, I never initiated the dates. I included him with group activities, but it was he who decided to cancel the group side of one plan and make it a date for just us. I would not have had it any other way. I truly think that allowing the man to be the clear leader from the beginning in any courtship situation sets the relationship up in the correct order.

[L'Ange]

I see what you are saying about letting the man take the lead from the start and you could be right, at least in most cases. However, there really are no Scriptures saying in-laws have the authority to take on the role of choosing a mate for a widowed woman.

Yes, Ruth said she would do what Naomi said. Lots of times people agree to do what others say because they love them and respect their wisdom.
This does not mean they are mandated by YHWH to do so, however. We cannot make a Scriptural mandate out of what one woman did. Let's take the example of Rebecca. When she saw her future husband, Isaac, she covered her head with a veil. Because that one woman did so in the Bible, does that mean we all have to cover our heads with veils when we are married?

Boaz did not take the male lead in providing a home for Ruth. Ruth and Naomi as a team, 2 women, took the lead.

[LadyinWaiting]

This does not mean they are mandated by YHWH to do so, however. We cannot make a Scriptural mandate out of what one woman did.

No where did I say we are mandated to do this. I was correcting a prior post where someone said Ruth was bold. Ruth was merely following what she was told; she was not following her own desires for Boaz. Additionally, at no point did I say we are mandated to follow an in-law as a person in authority. In absence of any family, Naomi was all Ruth had since she'd left her family and culture to assume that of Naomi's family. As a result, Naomi served as the matriarch, and Ruth respected and obeyed her as such (as any unattached woman would have done in that period of time). You misinterpreted what was being said and made it out to be something I did not say.

Boaz was the kinsman redeemer (2nd in line). It was his role. HE then went to the kinsman reedmer (#1 in line) and the kinsman redeemer told Boaz he should take on the property - and by the same token Ruth - as the redeemer to preserve the family line since #1 did not want to risk his own estate. (Ruth 4) To say Boaz was not in the lead is to completely neglect the Scriptural evidence. Just because they worked to reveal his place in the family lineage and role doesn't mean that Ruth took the lead in initiating the relationship. Her actions were to tell him she was one who needed protection under the cultural norm of the time. And earlier, in Ruth 2, Boaz was the one who first set eyes on Ruth and told his servants to leave behind some portions for her, invited her into eat and gave favor to her. The move by herself through Naomi's plan was, therefore, not an initiating work.

That is consistent with the Scriptural mandates to let the man take the lead. There is no scriptural mandate for veiling at weddings, but there is a mandate to God's perfect plan for marriage.

[Shining_Star]

Thank you, all, so much for your responses They have been hugely helpful, and have encouraged me to keep in prayer about it... In the meantime I will continue to enjoy our friendship for what it is, and just see where it will lead... it's exciting...

[L'Ange]

I see Ruth as taking the intiative when she lay down at the feet of Boaz, which was in effect a marriage proposal. Yes, he had obviously shown interest in her, but not to the point of saying anything about marriage. He seemed delighted and surprised that she came to him. It seems to me he needed some encouragement because he was not young, as he mentioned, like other men around. If you do not see it that way, okey dokey. Some things in Scripture are not crystal clear to us in another time and culture speaking a different language. I'm certainly don't claim to be an expert in those areas.

[CoffeeCat]

Thank you, all, so much for your responses They have been hugely helpful, and have encouraged me to keep in prayer about it... In the meantime I will continue to enjoy our friendship for what it is, and just see where it will lead... it's exciting...

I'm praying for you.... and for him. If this is a great friendship.... then you're blessed to have an awesome brother in Christ for a buddy. If it develops into anything more that he tries to pursue.... it sounds like you both already 'click' on many, many levels!

Just take this slowly, as others have said. Pray lots. In my past, as a young, eager, happy, hopeful woman (in other words, with good intentions like so many others have) I've been over-zealous, moved too fast, and pushed things in a certain direction when I should DEFINITELY have stepped back..... waited.... prayed..... and let the guy take the lead. I've made the mistake of going after something in my eagerness for it, and I've paid for that mistake, too. It's cost me friendships and relationships. So from someone who's "been there".... please wait on it.

Anything worthwhile takes time. I'm glad you're excited right now! Just let this young man know you for who you are, and let him know that Christ's leading you..... and he'll go from there, whether in friendship or anything else.

God bless, sis!

[Shining_Star]

I'm praying for you.... and for him. If this is a great friendship.... then you're blessed to have an awesome brother in Christ for a buddy. If it develops into anything more that he tries to pursue.... it sounds like you both already 'click' on many, many levels!

Just take this slowly, as others have said. Pray lots. In my past, as a young, eager, happy, hopeful woman (in other words, with good intentions like so many others have) I've been over-zealous, moved too fast, and pushed things in a certain direction when I should DEFINITELY have stepped back..... waited.... prayed..... and let the guy take the lead. I've made the mistake of going after something in my eagerness for it, and I've paid for that mistake, too. It's cost me friendships and relationships. So from someone who's "been there".... please wait on it.

Anything worthwhile takes time. I'm glad you're excited right now! Just let this young man know you for who you are, and let him know that Christ's leading you..... and he'll go from there, whether in friendship or anything else.

God bless, sis!

Thank you and this is great advice. It's something I have also been aware of... not wanting to push things, or seem too 'forward', whilst at the same time wanting to be honest with him, as my friend. Will certainly continue to pray, and just 'wait and see'...because I'm sure that IF anything were to develop (and I'm equally aware that it might not) it would be worth waiting out and being patient for...

[L'Ange]

LadyInWaiting, Shining Star, anyone interested...

This evening I feel as if YHWH gave me an insight on Ruth that was different from how I had percieved her. I can't prove it to anyone of course, not even to myself, but for whatever it is worth...

I felt as if He showed me how Ruth had placed herself at Boaz' feet. She was placing herself in a position of submission and humility. According to the custom of her times she was asking him to protect her. That's got to appeal to a man's more noble side!

So then I started to think of other ways she could have shown "interest" that wouldn't have been so direct but would have been more on the aggressive side. We all know some of the ways that could be.

So, I guess I have changed my mind about Ruth and Boaz.