JESUS' Command: "Make Disciples" or make "Christians"???

[THOM]

Why mock at all? Just state what you believe and why - no reason to belittle the thoughts of others, is there?
While you may feel a thought or belief is "stupid", it obviously isn't to the person who made the statement. Most people invest a huge part of themselves into what they believe.
V

Your words ring so very true. I thank you for that. I never thought (which is totally my fault) I would receive such from the poster you're addressing with this response.

The charge is pretty clear. I don't think there is room for changing the intent of it.
Mat 28:19-20
(19) Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh,
(20) and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age."
It says disciples. We all know what that means, but we dance around it because it forces us to renew our minds and actually submit to God.

Thanks you both Keck and Vhayes, I won't forget your patience; Believe it or not it has already rubbed off on me!

I read in another thread where someone asked if, "And HE said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:15-18)", was applicable today to us; and I immediately started thinking about "The Great Commission", as recorded by Matthew; and then it was brought to my "remembrance", (something that I had not seen discussed in this forum since my arrival) specifically what I had learn early on in my walk with JESUS CHRIST: "Make Disciples".
Why is it important? Other than JESUS CHRIST Commanding it (which is enough for me, no matter how trivial it may seem to others), When it had been taught to me, I immediately grasped how easy it is to do; Why it needs to be done; How to do it; and All the benefits that go along with doing it, whether I could fully see/understand how it would go, even, against the grain of traditionally accepted "Christianity". . .especially today, and ESPECIALLY NOW, in this forum.

But then my FATHER in Heaven rewards me for my obedience to HIM, and not necessarily for my popularity and acceptance by my so-called siblings, huh. When I read some of the reactions to my posts in this forum, I thought of David, when he inquired about this Goliath fellow: "who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?", and that to me is what the world is doing to us, instead of us, as the Children of THE MOST HIGH GOD, doing to them, even as it was said of the First (and Early) Disciples of Christ, "These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also (Acts 17:6)." But, alas, it seems as though we're much too busy turning each other "upside down", instead of "the world", huh? But I digress.

Here's my bottom line on the subject of "make Disciples":

Its a COMMAND; not just a good idea; not a suggestion; IT IS an IMPERATIVE! As someone has so Adequately and Appropriately stated: "You cannot make 'Christians', we can only 'make Disciples'." It may be, for some, a matter of "semantics", but THE COMMAND is to "make Disciples"; it may not matter to some what they're called, but THE COMMAND is to "make Disciples". And since it HIS COMMAND, its HIS WAY or...

Being and/or claiming to be a "Christian" is free in that it cost very little, if anything; Being a "Disciple" and/or becoming a "Disciple" is very very costly. Just look at all the ones who lost their physical lives for the cause of JESUS CHRIST.

But to "make Disciples" is easy, because as Scripture tells us, “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus (Acts 4:13).”,

"And HE ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils (Mark 3:14-15)."

All you have to do to "make Disciples", is to allow them to be with you. And see, everyone reading this now, have been 'making Disciples' all along, and never even knew it, huh?

How to “make disciples”: “Go”, “Baptize”, and “Teach”.

“Go”: “And THE LORD said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled (Luke 14:23).”

“Baptize”: “. . .them in THE NAME of THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT...(Matthew 28:19)”

The problem here is that no one, in recorded Scripture, ever baptized anyone “in THE NAME of THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”, although they baptized, “in JESUS’ NAME”. So what is the situation here? Great question! Better answer!!!

Grammatically, it is impossible to “baptize. . .in THE NAME", Singular, of THREE PERSONS (“THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”); you can only “baptize. . .in THE NAME", of THREE PERSONS (“THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”)”, if THE THREE PERSON are really only and just ONE.

The word “baptize”, in the Greek (baptizõ), means to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge, to overwhelm, by becoming one in identity with; or identifying with.
So then the sum of "baptize" is moreso Spiritual (and the proper frame of mind) than Physical. . .that is to Cause them to become Immersed/Submerged in their Identification as a Child of THE FATHER, who is and looks just like THE SON, and Sealed, Kept, Taught and Comforted by THE HOLY SPIRIT.

“Teach”: “. . .them to observe all things that I have commanded you; (Matthew 28:20)”

The benefits to "make Disciples": ". . .lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age"; but that's only if you "make Disciples".

[keck553]

Very nice. Thank you for sharing! Iron/Iron stuff here!

[apothanein kerdos]

*sigh*

Christian and disciple are synonymous in the Greek. To be a Christian, by its very definition, is to be a disciple of Christ. Is this really difficult to understand? I consider myself a Christian. I guess I'm going to Hell now.

[Vhayes]

No one has said you are going to hell, AK. Give us a break already, please. We haven't even necessarily disagreed with you, just expounded on what WE think the words mean. I can be a disciple of Christ, learn about Him, read the gospels and still not be a Christian.

And I apologize to the original poster if I have taken the thread off track.
V

[apothanein kerdos]

No one has said you are going to hell, AK. Give us a break already, please. We haven't even necessarily disagreed with you, just expounded on what WE think the words mean. I can be a disciple of Christ, learn about Him, read the gospels and still not be a Christian.

And I apologize to the original poster if I have taken the thread off track.
V

It's justified hyperbole Vhayes. When we come out and say, "No, we're called to be DISCIPLES, not Christians!" we're making an argument about of nothing.

And words mean things, not just what they mean to us. "Christian" means "disciple of Christ," for for him to come on here and go off on us (and the board description) for using "Christian" instead of "disciple" is a bit absurd. The hyperbole is completely justified.

[Vhayes]

Ak - I think you and I are polar opposites when it comes to dealing with people, whether we disagree with them or agree with them. Personalities are created for reasons - you reach some, I reach others and both of us still have quite a bit to learn and a long way to go before we go home. But what REALLY matters is, I know our Father loves us both.

Blessings to you -
V

[apothanein kerdos]

Ak - I think you and I are polar opposites when it comes to dealing with people, whether we disagree with them or agree with them. Personalities are created for reasons - you reach some, I reach others and both of us still have quite a bit to learn and a long way to go before we go home. But what REALLY matters is, I know our Father loves us both.

Blessings to you -
V

I can accept that.

[Vhayes]

Cool!!

and the rest of the 15 characters.

[Walstib]

With that lets all have a group hug

OK... focus people....

let us reason together take 120937646683

annnnd Action! *click

[THOM]

With that lets all have a group hug

OK... focus people....

let us reason together take 120937646683

annnnd Action! *click

Amen to that, my Brother!

[Firstfruits]

It is written: “And JESUS came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to ME in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in THE NAME of THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20NKJV)’”

Did JESUS CHRIST tell us to “make Disciples” or to make “Christians”?

If HE told us to “make Disciples” why are we not doing so?

What is a "Disciples"?
How does one "make" a "Disciples"?
What is a "Christian"?
What is the Scriptural origin of the word, "Christian(s)"?

What did JESUS CHRIST call HIS Followers ("Disciples" or "Christians")? Why? Why not?

Let's discuss it. . .because our LORD also said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)"

As far as it is written when we do as Christ has commanded we are known as his Disciples;

Jn 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Are we Christians if we love one another as Christ has commanded?

Are we Disciples if we love one another as Christ has commanded?

Is there any difference? no there is not.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[RogerW]

Your words ring so very true. I thank you for that. I never thought (which is totally my fault) I would receive such from the poster you're addressing with this response.

Thanks you both Keck and Vhayes, I won't forget your patience; Believe it or not it has already rubbed off on me!

I read in another thread where someone asked if, "And HE said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:15-18)", was applicable today to us; and I immediately started thinking about "The Great Commission", as recorded by Matthew; and then it was brought to my "remembrance", (something that I had not seen discussed in this forum since my arrival) specifically what I had learn early on in my walk with JESUS CHRIST: "Make Disciples".
Why is it important? Other than JESUS CHRIST Commanding it (which is enough for me, no matter how trivial it may seem to others), When it had been taught to me, I immediately grasped how easy it is to do; Why it needs to be done; How to do it; and All the benefits that go along with doing it, whether I could fully see/understand how it would go, even, against the grain of traditionally accepted "Christianity". . .especially today, and ESPECIALLY NOW, in this forum.

But then my FATHER in Heaven rewards me for my obedience to HIM, and not necessarily for my popularity and acceptance by my so-called siblings, huh. When I read some of the reactions to my posts in this forum, I thought of David, when he inquired about this Goliath fellow: "who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?", and that to me is what the world is doing to us, instead of us, as the Children of THE MOST HIGH GOD, doing to them, even as it was said of the First (and Early) Disciples of Christ, "These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also (Acts 17:6)." But, alas, it seems as though we're much too busy turning each other "upside down", instead of "the world", huh? But I digress.

Here's my bottom line on the subject of "make Disciples":

Its a COMMAND; not just a good idea; not a suggestion; IT IS an IMPERATIVE! As someone has so Adequately and Appropriately stated: "You cannot make 'Christians', we can only 'make Disciples'." It may be, for some, a matter of "semantics", but THE COMMAND is to "make Disciples"; it may not matter to some what they're called, but THE COMMAND is to "make Disciples". And since it HIS COMMAND, its HIS WAY or...

Being and/or claiming to be a "Christian" is free in that it cost very little, if anything; Being a "Disciple" and/or becoming a "Disciple" is very very costly. Just look at all the ones who lost their physical lives for the cause of JESUS CHRIST.

But to "make Disciples" is easy, because as Scripture tells us, “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus (Acts 4:13).”,

"And HE ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils (Mark 3:14-15)."

All you have to do to "make Disciples", is to allow them to be with you. And see, everyone reading this now, have been 'making Disciples' all along, and never even knew it, huh?

How to “make disciples”: “Go”, “Baptize”, and “Teach”.

“Go”: “And THE LORD said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled (Luke 14:23).”

“Baptize”: “. . .them in THE NAME of THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT...(Matthew 28:19)”

The problem here is that no one, in recorded Scripture, ever baptized anyone “in THE NAME of THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”, although they baptized, “in JESUS’ NAME”. So what is the situation here? Great question! Better answer!!!

Grammatically, it is impossible to “baptize. . .in THE NAME", Singular, of THREE PERSONS (“THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”); you can only “baptize. . .in THE NAME", of THREE PERSONS (“THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”)”, if THE THREE PERSON are really only and just ONE.

The word “baptize”, in the Greek (baptizõ), means to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge, to overwhelm, by becoming one in identity with; or identifying with.
So then the sum of "baptize" is moreso Spiritual (and the proper frame of mind) than Physical. . .that is to Cause them to become Immersed/Submerged in their Identification as a Child of THE FATHER, who is and looks just like THE SON, and Sealed, Kept, Taught and Comforted by THE HOLY SPIRIT.

“Teach”: “. . .them to observe all things that I have commanded you; (Matthew 28:20)”

The benefits to "make Disciples": ". . .lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age"; but that's only if you "make Disciples".

Greetings Thom,

I'm really glad you shared this. I too have believed for a while now that we (Christians) have horribly misunderstood "the Great Commission." We are commanded to "make disciples", and one of the ways we do this is through "baptism." Do I mean getting them fully wet? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I mean by "baptism" to immerse them completely, overwhelm them with the teachings of Christ. When we faithfully "make disciples"; i.e. tell unbelievers of the Lord, of His glorious gospel of salvation, then God ALONE will make "Christians" of all whom He chooses.

Excellent exegetical interpretation of the Great Commission! Thank You!

Many Blessings,
RW

[aliveinchrist]

Wow.

I don't know about other people here, but i think this is a pointless thread and should be closed.

Just my opinion, though.

[keck553]

let us reason together take 120937646683

Ha! God said that....

Isa 1:18
(18) "Come now, and let us reason together,........."

I still maintain that we can only take an unbeliever up to the cross. The rest is God's work.

[THOM]

Greetings Thom,

I'm really glad you shared this. I too have believed for a while now that we (Christians) have horribly misunderstood "the Great Commission." We are commanded to "make disciples", and one of the ways we do this is through "baptism." Do I mean getting them fully wet? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I mean by "baptism" to immerse them completely, overwhelm them with the teachings of Christ. When we faithfully "make disciples"; i.e. tell unbelievers of the Lord, of His glorious gospel of salvation, then God ALONE will make "Christians" of all whom He chooses.

Excellent exegetical interpretation of the Great Commission! Thank You!

Many Blessings,
RW

Thank you so much Roger, sometimes I know what I'm talking about, but have a little trouble expressing this, by coming off in the [perceived] wrong way. . .but if I do so here with you (and others) here, as my siblings, I have forever and ever to try and explain it to you all, huh?

One of the things that I may not have made clear is that, Making "disciples" is for believer ONLY, once they become [even so-called] "Christians". When they see JESUS CHRIST OUTSIDE of you, they will FREELY and WILLINGLY Follow you as you follow CHRIST!

When they had Paul incarcerated on many occasions, scholars tell us that they wouldn't leave the guards on Paul for any extended length of time because Paul would lead them to JESUS CHRIST. Remember Acts 16? If they ain't asking us, ". . .what must I do to be saved?", then not only aren't we making any disciples, we ain't [making no], making any "Christians". . .and neither is GOD. That's why the Command was given to us.

That's right, each and every time they see you, in actuality, they are see what JESUS CHRIST IS ALL ABOUT. . .because, "they took knowledge of" you, "that" you are "with Jesus"

If they don't see THE JESUS CHRIST that we're supposed to be immersed in and identifying with, they're just going to continue to Perish, right after making fun of us for believing THE GOD that we have brought down to our level, instead of "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, is THE LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of HIS Glory". . ."HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, which WAS, and IS, and IS to come."