Logical Bible Debate Filled with Questions

[SweetSoulMusic]

Before I get into my questions... I do believe in God. I do believe in a messiah and that the messiah already came. Which leads me into the first question/point...

Over 20 countries (of whom couldn't communicate and didn't know the other existed) have extremely old stories of a coming messiah who would save humanity (the aztecs for instance). It's like the drawings of the dragons. EVERY country has ancient drawings of dragons. The old testament part of the bible mentions a creature that breathes fire out of its mouth, smoke out of its nostrils, is massive in size, fierce and has large hard scales. The ancient drawings prove the existence of the creatures. Now back to the messiah story... Not only do we have all of those stories, but even modern man is fascinated with comic stories of super-humans coming to save the world (ex: superman, the show "heroes", etc). There is something ingrained in us humans, since the beginning of time, to have a fascination with stories of messiahs. To me, that is enough evidence to prove there was one.

What makes me believe in God is science. I study psychology quite often and occasionally I dabble in physics, chemistry, anatomy and biology. The human mind alone is the most fascinating organ. Everything from the conscious mind, subconscious mind and unconscious part of the brain... it's so intricately combined. For instance, our subconscious mind acts on whatever it is we believe, whether it is good or bad. This belief in what happens will either allow good to flow into our life or cut it out. The way all aspects of neuroscience combine in such intricate details and perfect ways. It operates whether we understand it or not. The millions of cells in our body that operate without our consent, direct and own our lives. And to think how powerful our immune system is... if we didn't have it, our body would disassemble into pieces and bacteria would consume the remains. Then to think... this ALL happens in EVERY insect, animal, and human. Even what draws a man and woman into each other is incredibly biologically detailed and related to the woman's fertility. Men are unconsciously attracted to women's voices and physical appearance more during their ovulation. The way millions of particles with tons of tiny happenings inside, make up one piece of furniture, picture frame, street sign, concrete, and so on. It's far to vast and detailed to have evolved from a single bacteria cell. It's too perfectly connected to have been an accident. To me, that is all LOGICAL evidence of God's existence.

Even in psychology, humans have an extreme need to be creative. That energy drives us and gives us meaning. Whomever created all of the intricate details of the planet is the ultimate creator. Us humans have the SAME drive. Many parts of the bible about anything can happen when you believe, thoughts are powerful, and words are even more powerful. It seems the people who wrote the bible had some extreme philosophical insight to how humans work.

On another science note, just recently scientists came out and said they discovered human's potential lifespan is 120 years maximum. The bible states "man's years shall be 120."



Now, here comes the question that could offend a lot of people. How can I trust that what the bible says is accurate and/or true? Now, the old testament has been around forever. The new testament was decided and designed by the old Catholic church. Now, history has shown the catholic church to be out for control and its own prosperity. For instance, the very first pope was a pirate paid for by Medici at the cost of 100,000 lire a year. He wanted a man who would do whatever he said so he could have control over the people. The church also used to put out these pieces of paper (I just blanked on what they were called) and sold them saying they gave you forgiveness. The task was to buy them and draw what sins you committed onto the paper and you would be forgiven. People would go buy 10 of them, then go out drinking and do whatever else they wanted to do, and expect God would forgive them after drawing on these papers. The catholic church not giving the followers a bible and only telling them what the bible said. It was forbidden for non-priests to read the bible. The catholic church is responsible for christmas, easter, the calendar, the clock, etc. Now, how can I trust something that was designed by those same people?

One thing I am sure of is the human ability to do everything purely for its own salvation. The bible can be freely quoted when it suits the purpose of the teacher. We also have a selfish need to believe we are so smart we figured everything out and therefore know the secrets of the universe. We want to know things and understand things that no one else does, all while completely ignoring everything that has been done has been done before. Whether someone follows a religion or the absence of one, it all operates from the same exact selfish need---the need to be special and better than everyone else. In a sense, it is human nature to long to be a god. We will be worshiped with fame and money as long as it suits our purposes. Power does and will corrupt.

Now as far as translations of the bible go how do we know those are correct? There have been times when I looked up the young's literal translation and compared it to the new international version. There are SO many errors in our modern translation. One tiny little word changes the incredibly vast meaning of it. In fact, I drove to every book store and christian store in the area and could not find ONE copy of Young's Literal Translation. However, I could find the extremely dumbed down Message Bible translation everywhere! Nothing in this world happens on accident. Such as our system of commerce, money, wars, racism, and so forth was all created with one purpose in mind---control. Now, when I cannot find the most accurate translation... that makes me wonder. Why is it so hard to find?? Why is it easier to find dumbed down bibles instead of the ones that make you think and question??

Now as far as Jesus goes... The catholic church is the one that declared he was a tall white man with long light brown hair and pale skin. For all we know, he could have had very dark skin, dark hair, short, and had lots of acne. How do we know everything is there in this bible as well? Somewhere in Revelation (so I was told by my father but wasn't shown because I had to run to an appointment), Jesus comes down in this glorious way and a man bows down and worships him. Jesus tells the man to get up and stop worshipping him and only worship the Father God. He even went around preaching about God and went alone to pray. So should christians be praying to Jesus? Why does the christian church teach that God doesn't answer prayers until you are saved? My first detailed answered prayer was when I was 6 years old and next when I was 14. When I was a child, that dropped my skepticism about what these strange adults were trying to convince me of, and let me know that God really is there, knows me and has the situation in his hands.

My evidence comes from impossible situations or prayers that were answered in my life. It also comes from science. The more I study psychology the more it reveals there is something so intricately loving and spiritual to us humans. I'll give an example by what I mean by life teaching me... Recently, I had a situation where a person who completely accepts me exactly the way I am (& wouldn't care whether I changed certain behaviors or not) gave me my first example of loving correction. I did not feel attacked or belittled. In fact, I felt even more cared for through the small correction. That example showed me... Ah this is what its supposed to be like.

Personally, I believe love is too vast and detailed for us humans to EVER understand the unconditional love of God---our selfishness and need to be admired will always get in our way.

[keck553]

I'd say those Tower of Babel people knew of God's plan, then lost the details in the dispersion. If that doesn't work for ya, the Bible says God is revealed by His creation.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

[TrustGzus]

Hey SweetSoulMusic,

Lots to talk about in what you've posted. You acknowledge the evidence of the teleological argument. That's good.

Now, here comes the question that could offend a lot of people. How can I trust that what the bible says is accurate and/or true? Now, the old testament has been around forever. The new testament was decided and designed by the old Catholic church. Now, history has shown the catholic church to be out for control and its own prosperity. For instance, the very first pope was a pirate paid for by Medici at the cost of 100,000 lire a year. He wanted a man who would do whatever he said so he could have control over the people. The church also used to put out these pieces of paper (I just blanked on what they were called) and sold them saying they gave you forgiveness. The task was to buy them and draw what sins you committed onto the paper and you would be forgiven. People would go buy 10 of them, then go out drinking and do whatever else they wanted to do, and expect God would forgive them after drawing on these papers. The catholic church not giving the followers a bible and only telling them what the bible said. It was forbidden for non-priests to read the bible. The catholic church is responsible for christmas, easter, the calendar, the clock, etc. Now, how can I trust something that was designed by those same people?

I'm not offended. However, I have to wonder how you came to your conclusions. The New Testament is very ancient -- very near to the time that Jesus walked the earth. Manuscript evidence and the writings of the church fathers verifiy this. Why do you think the catholic church "decided and designed it"? Who's this pope paid by a pirate? Provide some source material.

One thing I am sure of is the human ability to do everything purely for its own salvation. The bible can be freely quoted when it suits the purpose of the teacher. We also have a selfish need to believe we are so smart we figured everything out and therefore know the secrets of the universe. We want to know things and understand things that no one else does, all while completely ignoring everything that has been done has been done before. Whether someone follows a religion or the absence of one, it all operates from the same exact selfish need---the need to be special and better than everyone else. In a sense, it is human nature to long to be a god. We will be worshiped with fame and money as long as it suits our purposes. Power does and will corrupt.

I'll say this in one sentence taken from the New Testament . . . all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That's Paul in Romans 3:23.

Now as far as translations of the bible go how do we know those are correct? There have been times when I looked up the young's literal translation and compared it to the new international version. There are SO many errors in our modern translation. One tiny little word changes the incredibly vast meaning of it. In fact, I drove to every book store and christian store in the area and could not find ONE copy of Young's Literal Translation. However, I could find the extremely dumbed down Message Bible translation everywhere! Nothing in this world happens on accident. Such as our system of commerce, money, wars, racism, and so forth was all created with one purpose in mind---control. Now, when I cannot find the most accurate translation... that makes me wonder. Why is it so hard to find? Why is it easier to find dumbed down bibles instead of the ones that make you think and question??

How'd you conclude that a translation done by one man (Young) is better than a translation done by dozens of scholars (the NIV)? What is your measuring rule for what makes a translation good or bad: is it Young's or something else? If Young's, why Young's?

Now as far as Jesus goes... The catholic church is the one that declared he was a tall white man with long light brown hair and pale skin. For all we know, he could have had very dark skin, dark hair, short, and had lots of acne. How do we know everything is there in this bible as well? Somewhere in Revelation (so I was told by my father but wasn't shown because I had to run to an appointment), Jesus comes down in this glorious way and a man bows down and worships him. Jesus tells the man to get up and stop worshipping him and only worship the Father God. He even went around preaching about God and went alone to pray. So should christians be praying to Jesus? Why does the christian church teach that God doesn't answer prayers until you are saved? My first detailed answered prayer was when I was 6 years old and next when I was 14. When I was a child, that dropped my skepticism about what these strange adults were trying to convince me of, and let me know that God really is there, knows me and has the situation in his hands.

Whatever any human has said about how Jesus looked doesn't matter much to me. The story from Revelation about Jesus saying worship only the Father . . . it's not in there. I've read Revelation at least 50 times.

So some of what you say I agree with it. Some I don't and have no doubt about it (such as the story about Jesus in Revelation). Other things I'd like to hear your evidence. You state your evidence is answered prayers and science. I don't think either of those tell us how we got the New Testament. That's a historical question, not one that we solve by the scientific method or prayer -- not that we can't pray for God to lead us to the evidence, but prayer is not the evidence for that.

You state you are a Christian. in that you answered the question "Are you a Christian?" With "Yes, I am a Christian." You seem to have a low view of the New Testament for a Christian. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. So please accept my apology if I've misunderstood anything you've typed.

Grace & peace to you,

Joe

[cajunman4life]

I think I know what you're referencing in Revelation.

Chapter 22, verses 8-9. And it's not talking about Jesus. I'll quote for you the verses (from the KJV, which I primarily use)

Revelation 22:8-9 (King James Version)

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

This also happens in Revelation 19:10. I'll let you look up that one on your own.

Here we see the author of Revelation, John, falls at the feet of the angel that is showing him these things in worship. The angel tells him not to do that, because the angel is a fellowservant, and to worship God alone.

[SweetSoulMusic]

I do not have a low opinion of the bible at all. I just have a lot of questions and looking for an in-depth discussion. I'm one of those people who question everything. I'm merely stating what I've learned to see if my facts are correct or incorrect, and also... can anyone counteract my opinions in a strong manner with more than just believing what everyone else tells them to believe.

There are so many things about religions in general that make me curious. Each religion believes they are the ones with the right answers. So who's actually right? Do they all have pieces of correct information? Are they all wrong? Or are they all right? Some theories state Jesus came in many different forms to different cultures. Humans need to worship something... whether its God, a golden statute or even the beliefs of science & evolution. Everyone is ready to fight and die for what they believe. If we are all willing to do that... who's right?

However, humanity is notorious for misinterpreting. How do I know that what a preacher tells me is correct? or how do I know my own interpretations of what I read is correct? History shows religions have been used to control many times over... so how do I know what parts are the control and what parts are real?