Dynamic Equivalency and the UBS

[tgallison]

To accommodate the moderator TrustGuz, the name of this thread has been changed to Dynamic Equivalency and the UBS, so that it might more closely align itself with content.

Apostasy


The Bible is an inexhaustible because it is God’s word. It does not read like a man’s novel, with the narrow thoughts of man. All of the verses agree, one with another, and fit like a glove, from Genesis to Revelation. They are all intertwined, and the writers, when they wrote by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, did not in themselves see the whole overall picture, for no one can exhaust this Book. No one has ever read this book and been able to say, now I understand all things revealed in this Book. That is why man’s thoughts cannot replace God’s thoughts.

Joe you presented three verses following verse John 15, that you indicate show that the liberal translations reveal the Deity of Christ better than the KJV does.

A look at the first verse you presented, John 1:18. You say the Deity of Christ is much clearer in the CEV and GNB than the KJV.

CEV “No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.”

The statement, “The only Son” is contradictory to six verses in the Old Testament and five verses in the New Testament.God has many sons as described by these verses, therefore, “The only son” in the CEV cannot be an accurate statement, for God has many sons.

The ERV, ASV, and NASB, all CT, have begotten in their text. Begotten relates to biological, as opposed to being adopted. The KJV has begotten as well.

CEV “--who is truly God and is closest to the Father--

GNT “--and is at the Father’s side.

Now we see two God’s, the Son who is God, is close to the other God,who is his Father.

This is where the thought for thought translation gets into trouble. How do you describe with your own thoughts that which is indescribable. God is a Spirit. How does one with his own mind describe the relationship between God the Father, and God the Son. If they are truly one, you cannot place God the Son standing alongside of God the Father, because they then become two God’s. Jesus said, “I and my Father are one.” John 10:30

The CT has omitted εἰς, which means “in”, or the equivalent in this verse. In spite of that, the ERV, ASV, and NASB, all have “in” the bosom in their text.

What should be noted is that the Critical Text does have κόλπος, the word translated bosom in this verse, and yet you do not see it in the Dynamic Equivalence texts.

In other words, Jesus is in the arms of the Father. And then when you realize that Jesus is described as the arms of God, as described in both the Old and New Testament, you begin to realize the oneness. (Isaiah 53:1 is one verse that describes Jesus as the arm of God, but there are many verses that do this)

So when you see the thought for thought translations trying to translate God’s thoughts into their own, you then find the Father and the Son separated, or two separate Gods.

NIV “No one has ever seen God. But God the one and only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.”

Clearly both the CT and RT have bosom (κόλπος) in their text, yet the Dynamic Equivalent Translations have chosen to place Jesus apart from the Father, making 2 Gods.

God’s thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts, making it impossible to translate God’s thoughts into our thoughts.

So in conclusion, which one makes the Deity of Christ clearer, the one placing Jesus outside the Father, (or standing beside the Father) and thus creating two God’s, or the one placing him in the Father’s arms, which are in fact the arms of Jesus? Remember God is a Spirit, and we must worship him in Spirit and in Truth.

Terrell

[apothanein kerdos]

So...

You deny the Trinity and say that God has multiple sons that are like Jesus?

[tgallison]

So...

You deny the Trinity and say that God has multiple sons that are like Jesus?

When did I say they were like Jesus? Saying, one and only Son, does not distinguish anything about the son. It is merely saying that there are not multiple sons, which is contrary to scripture. The KJV and the ERV-ASV-and NASB make the distinction that Christ is unique, by inserting begotten. The Dynamic Equivalent Texts omit the distinction.

Terrell

[Brother Mark]

I've only met one or two (only a few) KJV only person that had real power in their life to overcome sin, to love others, to demonstrate Jesus to the world. I met one on this board. I have met many people that love God, hate sin, have power over sin in their own lives, demonstrate sacrificially the love of God, are his witnesses, have participated in healing the sick and casting out demons, etc. that use modern translations.

The power to be his witness is way more convincing to me than some argument about translation practices.

[RogerW]

I've only met one or two (only a few) KJV only person that had real power in their life to overcome sin, to love others, to demonstrate Jesus to the world. I met one on this board. I have met many people that love God, hate sin, have power over sin in their own lives, demonstrate sacrificially the love of God, are his witnesses, have participated in healing the sick and casting out demons, etc. that use modern translations.

The power to be his witness is way more convincing to me than some argument about translation practices.

This argument may be a bit skewed Brother Mark. You're argument assumes salvation based on numbers and good works. Not at all sure this is the best argument to make. In fact I could argue the exact opposite...that obviously the KJV is the best translation because through it Christ's elect remnant (many called, few chosen) come into the Kingdom. Scripture tells us broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many go that way, and narrow is the way to eternal life, but only few find this way. Makes me wonder is the best translation the one that produces faith in the many or the few? One last point, consider the purpose driven mega churches who are great in number and good works and have altogether discarded the KJV...

Many Blessings,
RW

[Brother Mark]

This argument may be a bit skewed Brother Mark. You're argument assumes salvation based on numbers and good works. Not at all sure this is the best argument to make. In fact I could argue the exact opposite...that obviously the KJV is the best translation because through it Christ's elect remnant (many called, few chosen) come into the Kingdom. Scripture tells us broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many go that way, and narrow is the way to eternal life, but only few find this way. Makes me wonder is the best translation the one that produces faith in the many or the few? One last point, consider the purpose driven mega churches who are great in number and good works and have altogether discarded the KJV...

Many Blessings,
RW

Not salvation RW. But power. I didn't make a blanket statement either. I just simply said in my experience. I've seen real power from God. Not just works. But power to overcome sin. Power to know God and fellowship with Him. LIFE! Jesus is life. Like First John says "Whom we have seen, touched", etc. IOW, I am speaking not about salvation, but about the power to live the life God has called us to live and to be his witnesses.

Acts says we will have power to be his witnesses when the Holy Spirit comes on us. I've seen that power in people who don't use the KJV. I've not seen it as much in the KJV only crowd, though I have seen it.

My point? That great power from God comes through his word whether it is in the form of the KJV, NIV, NASB, the Greek, Hebrew, etc.

Power to be God's witnesses speaks far more loudly to me than some argument.

Acts 1:8
8 but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.
NASB

[tgallison]

I've only met one or two (only a few) KJV only person that had real power in their life to overcome sin, to love others, to demonstrate Jesus to the world. I met one on this board. I have met many people that love God, hate sin, have power over sin in their own lives, demonstrate sacrificially the love of God, are his witnesses, have participated in healing the sick and casting out demons, etc. that use modern translations.

The power to be his witness is way more convincing to me than some argument about translation practices.

Brother Mark greetings

It was not to long ago we were in the dark ages, because the light was hidden. Hidden in the dungeons of the Vatican. The apostate church said the common man was not wise enough to be given the Word of God.

There were men who came forward to unveil that light. They were criticized, ostracized, and burnt at the stake. These men, few in number, but with great courage turned the world upside down.

A new world power was brought forth in that light, and men of all nations came forward to be rewarded with the blessing of that nation.

Missionaries were sent out to all the world through that nation. The Bible they had in their hands was the King James Bible.

There is now a great mission to replace the Bible that was translated with a word for word equivalence, with the new translations that are professed to be the thoughts of God. Man cannot discern the thoughts of God. The process of these translations brings God's word down to the level of man's thoughts.

These translations will dilute the light that God desires to shine forth.

I know you don't agree with perhaps many things I have said, and when one gets frustrated their is a tendency to attack the messenger, but I am sure you did not mean to do that.

In Jesus Christ, Terrell

[Brother Mark]

Brother Mark greetings

It was not to long ago we were in the dark ages, because the light was hidden. Hidden in the dungeons of the Vatican. The apostate church said the common man was not wise enough to be given the Word of God.

There were men who came forward to unveil that light. They were criticized, ostracized, and burnt at the stake. These men, few in number, but with great courage turned the world upside down.

A new world power was brought forth in that light, and men of all nations came forward to be rewarded with the blessing of that nation.

Missionaries were sent out to all the world through that nation. The Bible they had in their hands was the King James Bible.

Indeed! And when they went out, they went out with a bible that was a modern translation for them. People were burned at the stake for seeking to have a modern translation for the common man.

There is now a great mission to replace the Bible that was translated with a word for word equivalence, with the new translations that are professed to be the thoughts of God. Man cannot discern the thoughts of God. The process of these translations brings God's word down to the level of man's thoughts.

These translations will dilute the light that God desires to shine forth.

I've seen God move in power using many different translations. Just as the previous missionaries used a modern version for them (the 1611 KJV) so to we see God doing the same thing today with a version of scripture in the modern vernacular.

I know you don't agree with perhaps many things I have said, and when one gets frustrated their is a tendency to attack the messenger, but I am sure you did not mean to do that.

In Jesus Christ, Terrell

I didn't attack you Terrel. What I said, and meant, was I see far more people walking in power that use versions other than the KJV than I do with those that use the KJV. I've been in both camps. I've seen both camps up close and personal. However, my experience is very limited. But I cannot deny that God has moved and does move powerfully in the lives of those that use other versions besides the KJV. I've seen it repeatedly over and over and over and over again in the life of others and in my own life. God speaks through those versions in a powerful way.

[tgallison]

[QUOTE]

Indeed! And when they went out, they went out with a bible that was a modern translation for them. People were burned at the stake for seeking to have a modern translation for the common man.

I've seen God move in power using many different translations. Just as the previous missionaries used a modern version for them (the 1611 KJV) so to we see God doing the same thing today with a version of scripture in the modern vernacular.

One big difference, they didn't have any translation. And now the UBS has a program to replace every KJV with a corrupt thought for thought translation.

You mention Acts 1:8 in referring to the power. That was for signs and wonders to the Jewish people who were told in Joel 2:27-28 that these signs would come. I do not deny the power of God, but it was displayed physically for the Jews, for they required a sign. God's power today is displayed in the spiritual, changing the hearts and minds of men.

You cannot be intellectually honest about Acts 1:8 without accepting Mark 16:18. You have to pick up serpents without being hurt, and drink poisonous drink. There are a couple of groups that do this. You are not one of them are you?

I didn't attack you Terrel. What I said, and meant, was I see far more people walking in power that use versions other than the KJV than I do with those that use the KJV. I've been in both camps. I've seen both camps up close and personal. However, my experience is very limited. But I cannot deny that God has moved and does move powerfully in the lives of those that use other versions besides the KJV. I've seen it repeatedly over and over and over and over again in the life of others and in my own life. God speaks through those versions in a powerful way.

You are continually debating the Word in the various threads. How can you do that when the Word is changing from day to day, as men have new thoughts? Or don't you use the Dynamic Equivalency Translations when you debate?

Terrell

[Brother Mark]

[quote=tgallison;2042513]

One big difference, they didn't have any translation. And now the UBS has a program to replace every KJV with a corrupt thought for thought translation.

There were English translations before the KJV.

You mention Acts 1:8 in referring to the power. That was for signs and wonders to the Jewish people who were told in Joel 2:27-28 that these signs would come. I do not deny the power of God, but it was displayed physically for the Jews, for they required a sign. God's power today is displayed in the spiritual, changing the hearts and minds of men.

You cannot be intellectually honest about Acts 1:8 without accepting Mark 16:18. You have to pick up serpents without being hurt, and drink poisonous drink. There are a couple of groups that do this. You are not one of them are you?

Jesus called Pharisees serpents did he not? He certainly handled them rather well and I see no reason why we today can't handle them either. The power mentioned in Acts 1 is still with us today. That verse didn't mention signs and wonders. Just power to be his witnesses. And the real power I am talking about is the one you refer to about changing the hearts of men. I've seen that far more prevalent in those that use translations other than the KJV than among those that use only the KJV... but that is qualified by my experience being limited. Yet within all the people I have met, it is not even close. Those that use other versions changed far more than those that use only the KJV. They display more love, less sin, more power over anger, lust, etc. As a result, they have more power to be his witnesses.

You are continually debating the Word in the various threads. How can you do that when the Word is changing from day to day, as men have new thoughts? Or don't you use the Dynamic Equivalency Translations when you debate?

I never said the word changes. I do say that language changes and the language of the KJV is not the same language spoken today.

[fuzzi]

And the real power I am talking about is the one you refer to about changing the hearts of men. I've seen that far more prevalent in those that use translations other than the KJV than among those that use only the KJV... but that is qualified by my experience being limited. Yet within all the people I have met, it is not even close. Those that use other versions changed far more than those that use only the KJV. They display more love, less sin, more power over anger, lust, etc. As a result, they have more power to be his witnesses.

We probably shouldn't base our beliefs on what we see and hear.

I've been to a number of churches since I was saved, in 2000. I've been to an NIV church and several KJB churches. The people who I have met, worshipped and fellowshipped with, discussed doctrine with, etc. were powerful and spiritual, loving and kind, gentle and displaying fruits of the spirit. Overwhelmingly, I have experienced how those who believe the King James Bible is the word of God were much more mature and spiritual than those who were using an NIV.

But as I said, that's my experience, just as your experience seems to say the opposite.

I use the King James Bible because I believe it is the word of God, not because I 'prefer' it or 'like' it better. I believe it.

And it gets wearing to have people constantly trying to destroy my faith in God's word by telling me how my Bible is flawed, and trying to 'sell' me on some modern version, the latest and greatest according to 'scholars' and book sellers.

No thanks. I'm blessed with God's word as it is.

[Brother Mark]

We probably shouldn't base our beliefs on what we see and hear.

I've been to a number of churches since I was saved, in 2000. I've been to an NIV church and several KJB churches. The people who I have met, worshipped and fellowshipped with, discussed doctrine with, etc. were powerful and spiritual, loving and kind, gentle and displaying fruits of the spirit. Overwhelmingly, I have experienced how those who believe the King James Bible is the word of God were much more mature and spiritual than those who were using an NIV.

But as I said, that's my experience, just as your experience seems to say the opposite.

I use the King James Bible because I believe it is the word of God, not because I 'prefer' it or 'like' it better. I believe it.

And it gets wearing to have people constantly trying to destroy my faith in God's word by telling me how my Bible is flawed, and trying to 'sell' me on some modern version, the latest and greatest according to 'scholars' and book sellers.

No thanks. I'm blessed with God's word as it is.

To be honest, I am not trying to change your mind or get you to use a different version. Just pointing out that it's fruitless to try and change other people's opinion about a bible that has been powerful in their life, whether it be the NIV, the NASB, the KJV, etc.

For me personally, I use them all. I prefer the NASB (New American Standard Bible) as it is the word of God and has been used powerfully in my life.

I will go with Billy Graham in this thing... "I am for whatever bible you will read."

[tgallison]

[QUOTE][quote=Brother Mark;2042520]

There were English translations before the KJV.

Yes formal translations that agreed with the King James doctrinally. Not God's word converted to man's thoughts.

Jesus called Pharisees serpents did he not? He certainly handled them rather well and I see no reason why we today can't handle them either.

The difference with those Pharisees was that they did not touch the written word to make it say something different. They verbalized a difference, but they didn't rewrite God's Word.

The power mentioned in Acts 1 is still with us today. That verse didn't mention signs and wonders. Just power to be his witnesses.

Jesus was speaking of the baptism of fire that John the baptist preached of. Jesus was speaking of the physical application, to Jews only, at that time. It has a spiritual application to us, but the outward signs were to the Jews. The proof of this is the first church. They were Jews only, and they had all things common. If you lied to the Holy Ghost, you were zapped physically. If we lie to the Holy Spirit we are zapped spiritually.

And the real power I am talking about is the one you refer to about changing the hearts of men. I've seen that far more prevalent in those that use translations other than the KJV than among those that use only the KJV... but that is qualified by my experience being limited. Yet within all the people I have met, it is not even close. Those that use other versions changed far more than those that use only the KJV. They display more love, less sin, more power over anger, lust, etc. As a result, they have more power to be his witnesses.

You mentioned Billy Graham being for any Bible you will read, and then you mentioned KJV people lacking love, and power. Billy Graham used the King James Bible as did all the powerful preachers of the 20th century.

I never said the word changes. I do say that language changes and the language of the KJV is not the same language spoken today.

But that is the problem, men are changing the Word. We now have two God's as a result of the thought translations. The new translations have put Jesus close to the Father, or standing along side Him. When they say God, they are not referring to both Jesus and the Father, they are only referring to the Father.

When the Father sent Jesus, He did not leave him, He went with Him. The identity of the Son can not be separated from the Father, otherwise you have 2 God's.

The only time Jesus was separated from the Father was at the cross, and then it was only the physical body that was separated and not the Spirit. For Jesus said, into thy hands I commend my Spirit.

The cross is something that cannot be readily understood by man. How that God the Son, could give up his life, and yet live. For God is not a man as we are. Neither are his thoughts our thoughts.

Jesus said, "I and my Father are one."

Terrell

[Brother Mark]

[quote=tgallison;2042777][quote]

Yes formal translations that agreed with the King James doctrinally. Not God's word converted to man's thoughts.

I see God using those translations in a powerful way. He speaks to his children through them. Interesting thing, that he does that.

The difference with those Pharisees was that they did not touch the written word to make it say something different. They verbalized a difference, but they didn't rewrite God's Word.

Same difference, IMO.

Jesus was speaking of the baptism of fire that John the baptist preached of. Jesus was speaking of the physical application, to Jews only, at that time. It has a spiritual application to us, but the outward signs were to the Jews. The proof of this is the first church. They were Jews only, and they had all things common. If you lied to the Holy Ghost, you were zapped physically. If we lie to the Holy Spirit we are zapped spiritually.

The power to be his witnesses still is necessary. If one doesn't have the power to be his witness, then something is wrong big time.

You mentioned Billy Graham being for any Bible you will read, and then you mentioned KJV people lacking love, and power. Billy Graham used the King James Bible as did all the powerful preachers of the 20th century.

I was referring to the KJV only crowd. Billy Graham isn't a KJV only guy. I haven't seen too many that preach KJV only that have power in their life. Not saying they don't exists, as I have already admitted to knowing some. I just haven't seen many in my limited experience.

But that is the problem, men are changing the Word. We now have two God's as a result of the thought translations. The new translations have put Jesus close to the Father, or standing along side Him. When they say God, they are not referring to both Jesus and the Father, they are only referring to the Father.

I don't get that from any of the translations that I read.

When the Father sent Jesus, He did not leave him, He went with Him. The identity of the Son can not be separated from the Father, otherwise you have 2 God's.

I don't get that from any of the translations I read either.

The only time Jesus was separated from the Father was at the cross, and then it was only the physical body that was separated and not the Spirit. For Jesus said, into thy hands I commend my Spirit.

Yea, all the bibles I read say that too.

The cross is something that cannot be readily understood by man. How that God the Son, could give up his life, and yet live. For God is not a man as we are. Neither are his thoughts our thoughts.

Jesus said, "I and my Father are one."

Pretty much in every translation I have read as well.

[tgallison]

[QUOTE]

I was referring to the KJV only crowd. Billy Graham isn't a KJV only guy. I haven't seen too many that preach KJV only that have power in their life. Not saying they don't exists, as I have already admitted to knowing some. I just haven't seen many in my limited experience.

Billy Graham once, holding a KJV in his hand, said I believe this is the inspired, infallible word of God.

Can you say that today with any version?

Terrell