Jerusalem---not one stone upon another?

[jeffweeder]

　
Hi all
　

Lk 21
And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said,
6 "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."
7 They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?"

Not 1 single solitary stone?
---Im thinking of the wailing wall that is still standing, that Jewish people see as Holy...and part of the temple area.
Does it just refer to the temple?
---If it does, then why did Jesus say----"do you see these things" ?
　

Matt 24
Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

　
What are these other structures/buildings , other than the temple itself?
　
　
No doubt that this began in AD 70, but im seeing another fulfillment, because of this scripture, that refers to the whole city.;
LUKE 19

41 When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42 saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43 "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side,
44 and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."


It seems that the whole city of Jerusalem is not going to have one stone upon another-----------which raises the question, -why would an army , like Rome ,come in and totally demolish ever single structure---sounds like hard work, which is why the Roman legions didnt fulfill it....................(.no gold in that wailing wall.)

Modern day technology can make easy work of this destruction.
　
Thoughts please.
　
　
　

[Searcher1]

What are these other structures/buildings , other than the temple itself?

The holy city was laid even to the ground by the Romans. Emperor Hadrian, in the late second century, built a new city in it's place, called Aelia Capitolina.

Inside the fort that surrounded the Temple, Herod had built many great buildings, along with building a new Temple. They were all torn down.

Jesus doesn't mention the walls around the Temple, although most of them did not survive. Nor the walls that surrounded the city itself. The city that laid within was actually burned and then stones then removed because they hoped to find the great wealth (money and Jewels) the Jews had hidden in their houses. In fact when a Jew became so desperate to escape the city because of starvation (caused by the long siege) he was not only killed, but gutted because they believed the Jews that tried to escape would swallow their money and gems.

God bless,
Norma

[jeffweeder]

Thanks Norma.
Very interesting.

He did say "all" these things, and not one stone will be left on another, yet this part has stood since AD70.
There hasnt been a time when you could say not one stone has been left on another in Jerusalem.-lk 19
Perhaps we will see it torn down in the near future

[Searcher1]

What were "all these things" that the apostels were looking at? Buildings are what they spoke of. Not walls.

But a study of the area would show you that those walls, such as the western wall (Wailing wall), were below ground level. Seems imposible but I have seen the pictures. Most people don't realize that most of the walls that surround the Mount today were built up by the Romans under Herodian, and then the Muslims.

I have a temple mount website if you are interested.

God bless,
Norma

[jeffweeder]

Hmm, ok,..
Ill have to take a look at that website.
Thanks Norma. God bless you also.

[Searcher1]

Your welcome.

here is the address http://geocities.com/theseder2/

[David Taylor]

The wailing wall was not apart of the temple building, or any of the other buildings associated with the temple on top of Mt. Moriah.

The wailing wall was part of the underlying platform that the temple area was built on top of. It was built to stablize the top of the mountain, but itself was not apart of any buildings nor the temple.

Think of the wailing wall as the concrete slab that your house is built upon for stability. If a tornado can and ripped your house apart, destroyed it, and not one brick was left upon another...noone would say, "that wasn't fully destroyed, look, the concrete slab still remains of which the house was built ontop of...."

Your house would be completely gone, 100%....just like the Jewish temple was 100% gone, with not one brick, or rock, left upon another.

It's remaining to present day, didn't whatsoever, dismiss or avoid Jesus' specific prediction that the temple and the other buildings associated would be soon destroyed and brought down.

Matt 24:1 "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. "

Notice they weren't talking about the streets of Jerusalem, or the walls or gates of Jerusalem, or any other structures within Jerusalem...except the temple buildings. The wailing wall was no different that the via delarosa or the caverns, passages, and secret rooms that were carved deep inside the mountain underneath the temple building.

[Jerome1]

Wasn't additions to the temple(including the western wall) still being made seven years prior to the temple being destroyed?

Has anyone got any good diagrams showing where the western wall was situated in Herod's temple?

[David Taylor]

Wasn't additions to the temple(including the western wall) still being made seven years prior to the temple being destroyed?

Has anyone got any good diagrams showing where the western wall was situated in Herod's temple?

Think of it as the wall that the concrete slab that contained the temple and buildings were on top of.

Envision the Statue of Liberty.

She sits on a stone pedastal, that isn't apart of the statue; but is it's base.

Kinda like that.

[Searcher1]

This is true. When Herod enlarged the temple courts he had to incorporate the valleys on either side of the mount. The foundation stones of a wall had to be placed on bedrock, so his workers had to dig even deeper into the valleys to lay them. Because of this the walls were very high before they even reached the level of the threshing floor (where the Temples were built) on the Mount. If you look at pictures of the wailing wall you will see that the lower part is Herod stones. Above that the Romans increased the hight of the wall, and above that Muslim increased the hight even more.

The wailing wall is in the valley on the west side of the mount. The foundation stones are at an even lower level than the wailing area. This area was filled in by the Romans, plus all Christians for 500 years were, by law, to use the Mount, and the area around the walls, as a garbage dump once a day and if they lived outside the city, once a week. You can guess why. The Ottoman ruler, Sultan Suleiman in the second half of the sixteenth century, finally gave the Jews full exclusive rights to the Kotel as a Jewish holy place of worship, He allowed them to make a Pilgrimage once a year on the anniversary of the destruction of the Temple.

This was the size of the Kotel in 1945.



In 1967, when the Jews captured Jerusalem, work began earnestly to dig out the whole area we see today.

To the south of that they dug down even further to reveal the original street, shopping area, created by Herod.

But the Temple was on the Mount very high above where this street was located.

Anyway, these walls were probably only beginning to be constructed at the time of Jesus. The walls were built by Herod's grandson, Herod died in 4 BC. They were finally completed in around 63 AD just a few years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

God bless,
Norma

[Searcher1]

Has anyone got any good diagrams showing where the western wall was situated in Herod's temple?

You can go to the link I put up to my Temple mount site, where there are lot's of diagrams and bring any picture you like over here.

As for me. I am predigest as to the location of the original temples in the southern location on the Mount, so best that you do it.

God bless

[rom826]

Think of the wailing wall as the concrete slab that your house is built upon for stability. If a tornado can and ripped your house apart, destroyed it, and not one brick was left upon another...noone would say, "that wasn't fully destroyed, look, the concrete slab still remains of which the house was built ontop of...."

Your house would be completely gone, 100%....just like the Jewish temple was 100% gone, with not one brick, or rock, left upon another.

It's remaining to present day, didn't whatsoever, dismiss or avoid Jesus' specific prediction that the temple and the other buildings associated would be soon destroyed and brought down.

Comparing a 105 foot tall wall to a slab of concrete my house is built upon sounds like a total stretch to me. I am going to have to say the Jesus Christ's prophecy has not been completely fulfilled as of yet but will be some day in the future.

[Searcher1]

Comparing a 105 foot tall wall to a slab of concrete my house is built upon sounds like a total stretch to me. I am going to have to say the Jesus Christ's prophecy has not been completely fulfilled as of yet but will be some day in the future.

Oh my goodness.

I'm shocked that you feel you can from your opinion about these things, with very little knowledge of the wall, and evidentially little knowledge of the Temple Mount. Do you know how high the Threshing floor that David purchased is above sea level? Do you know how high the Herod portion of that wall is? No. Or you wouldn't have just said what you did.

The temple sat at a higher level than the top of those Herod stones, which are the bottom portion of that wall. The Wall consists of 45 stone courses, 28 of them above ground and 17 underground.The first seven visible layers are from the Herodian period. The next four layers were added by Umayyads in the seventh century. The next fourteen layers are from the Ottoman period. The top three layers were added by the Mafti.

The Herod portion was built for the purpose of filling in the valley to bring it up to the level of the lower portions of the Mount.

[rom826]

Oh my goodness.

I'm shocked that you feel you can from your opinion about these things, with very little knowledge of the wall, and evidentially little knowledge of the Temple Mount. Do you know how high the Threshing floor that David purchased is above sea level? Do you know how high the Herod portion of that wall is? No. Or you wouldn't have just said what you did.

The temple sat at a higher level than the top of those Herod stones, which are the bottom portion of that wall. The Wall consists of 45 stone courses, 28 of them above ground and 17 underground.The first seven visible layers are from the Herodian period. The next four layers were added by Umayyads in the seventh century. The next fourteen layers are from the Ottoman period. The top three layers were added by the Mafti.

The Herod portion was built for the purpose of filling in the valley to bring it up to the level of the lower portions of the Mount.

Even still the first seven layers from the Herodian period were left standing in 70 AD. From what I have been able to find on the internet about it, that is about 30 feet of wall left standing and 2 to 8 tons stone still one upon another. I am going to have to maintain my position that until that wall is destroyed, Jesus Christ's prophecy has not been completely fulfilled. If there is even one stone left standing upon another (whether it's 30 feet high or 100 feet high), then the prohecy that there should not be one stone upon another has not yet been completely fulfilled.

[Searcher1]

Even still the first seven layers from the Herodian period were left standing in 70 AD.

Which doesn't mater. They were speaking of the buildings, not the walls that surrounded the Temple compound.

If Jesus had said one word about the wall being torn down then you would have something to take a stand on, but He was speaking of the Herod buildings that they were looking at.

So let me ask you. Were the Herod buildings torn down until not one stone of those buildings was left upon another as Jesus said they would be?