Christian book recommendation - The Shack

[Gulah Papyrus]

Not to change the subject, but how important is understanding The Trinity? What Bible verses would you point to that emphasize the necessity for Christians to understand the Trinity and how the three persons of the Godhead interact, their rolls, and how failing to understand it, or an incorrect understanding of it, can be so destructive? Did Jesus or any of His Apostles ever warn against a misunderstanding of the Godhead?

bump.

Anyone??

[thepenitent]

Seems to me much of the trouble with trying to describe the Trinity by using fictional character portraits is that we violate the second commandment. Young creates a "graven image" of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit not with painting or sculpture but with words. The command against idolatry prohibits making images of the true God as well as false ones. By trying to depict God as a fictional character we inevitably limit and reduce him (them) to our level or worse. Even if one's theology were solid (which Young's isn't) they would be best counseled to heed the second commandment and not try to put God in the box that such depiction invariably entails.

[fuzzi]

Not to change the subject, but how important is understanding The Trinity? What Bible verses would you point to that emphasize the necessity for Christians to understand the Trinity and how the three persons of the Godhead interact, their rolls, and how failing to understand it, or an incorrect understanding of it, can be so destructive? Did Jesus or any of His Apostles ever warn against a misunderstanding of the Godhead?

I know I didn't understand the Trinity at all when I first got saved. I'd get the attributes mixed up. It took time, and lots of Bible reading, and prayer before I understood it enough.

I am not sure that it is something that any of us completely understand, we just know it is something true. None of us can understand everything about God, and sometimes it's just best to let the Lord explain it in His time, His way.

[Gulah Papyrus]

I know I didn't understand the Trinity at all when I first got saved. I'd get the attributes mixed up. It took time, and lots of Bible reading, and prayer before I understood it enough.

I am not sure that it is something that any of us completely understand, we just know it is something true. None of us can understand everything about God, and sometimes it's just best to let the Lord explain it in His time, His way.

So then why do so many seem to dissect and critique The Shack so much more than they do...say...Jesus' parables? Isn't the Shack just a long parable dealing with the love of God and the Trinity? Not all parables were perfect, right? And it is understood that you are not to take the literally, right?

...and I'm still waiting for the requested scriptural support for the dangers of misunderstanding the Trinity...not a challenge, a request.

[Athanasius]

So then why do so many seem to dissect and critique The Shack so much more than they do...say...Jesus' parables? Isn't the Shack just a long parable dealing with the love of God and the Trinity? Not all parables were perfect, right? And it is understood that you are not to take the literally, right?

...and I'm still waiting for the requested scriptural support for the dangers of misunderstanding the Trinity...not a challenge, a request.

I would say people dissect Jesus' parables a lot more than The Shack, it's simply that the latter doesn't stand to scrutiny. Are there dangers in misunderstanding God? I would say those misunderstanding the Trinity entail those same dangers.

[Gulah Papyrus]

Are there dangers in misunderstanding God? I would say those misunderstanding the Trinity entail those same dangers.

But Jesus and the Apostles spend the entire NT painting us a picture of who God is and how we can best get to know Him...yet they barely even touch on showing us how to understand The Trinity, right?...so how can misunderstanding the Trinity be as dangerous as misunderstanding God? Are you saying that if you misunderstand The Trinity, then you must also misunderstand God?

Personally I think my understanding of God runs faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar deeper than my understanding of the Trinity...so I guess I just don't agree with your statement that misunderstanding one is misunderstanding the other and that the dangers are the same in misunderstanding either. If that is the case then I am in the danger zone big time, and it's got nothin to do with The Shack...that Trinity is one tough nut to crack.

If understanding The Trinity is SO important, as important as understanding and relating to God, I wonder why it's inner workings are never specifically addressed in the Bible.

Any thoughts?

[fuzzi]

I'm not trying to evade your questions. You seem to think that there is some Scripture that will make it all clear to you. However, that is not how God works, we cannot fully know or understand Him:

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?" (Romans 11:33,34)

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8,9)

It is up to us to search the Scriptures, learn of God, rightly divide His word. Then He will make some things clear to us through the power of the Holy Spirit and His word, the Bible.

But it isn't something that will be handed to any of us, we have to work for it.

Isn't learning about the Lord worth some study and time?

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

"Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea." (Job 11:7-9)

"Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding." (Proverbs 2:3-6)

But Jesus and the Apostles spend the entire NT painting us a picture of who God is and how we can best get to know Him...yet they barely even touch on showing us how to understand The Trinity, right?...so how can misunderstanding the Trinity be as dangerous as misunderstanding God? Are you saying that if you misunderstand The Trinity, then you must also misunderstand God?

Personally I think my understanding of God runs faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar deeper than my understanding of the Trinity...so I guess I just don't agree with your statement that misunderstanding one is misunderstanding the other and that the dangers are the same in misunderstanding either. If that is the case then I am in the danger zone big time, and it's got nothin to do with The Shack...that Trinity is one tough nut to crack.

If understanding The Trinity is SO important, as important as understanding and relating to God, I wonder why it's inner workings are never specifically addressed in the Bible.

Any thoughts?

[9Marksfan]

I'm not trying to evade your questions. You seem to think that there is some Scripture that will make it all clear to you. However, that is not how God works, we cannot fully know or understand Him:

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?" (Romans 11:33,34)

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8,9)

It is up to us to search the Scriptures, learn of God, rightly divide His word. Then He will make some things clear to us through the power of the Holy Spirit and His word, the Bible.

But it isn't something that will be handed to any of us, we have to work for it.

Isn't learning about the Lord worth some study and time?

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

"Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea." (Job 11:7-9)

"Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding." (Proverbs 2:3-6)

Excellent post.

[Gulah Papyrus]

Excellent post.

What do you like about it?

[Athanasius]

...so how can misunderstanding the Trinity be as dangerous as misunderstanding God? Are you saying that if you misunderstand The Trinity, then you must also misunderstand God?

I think they're nearly one in the same; you can't understand God unless you also have an understanding of the Trinity. I'm saying there's a difference between a lack of understanding and a blatant misunderstanding of the Trinity. Don't take this as me suggesting we exhaustively understand the Trinity, we don't. However, as an example of blatant misunderstanding I'll refer to the following scenario.

As we all know in The Shack we meet a 'large beaming African-American woman' named Papa, otherwise known in Christian scripture as God the Father. If this isn't bad enough, 'Papa' shows Mack the nail scars on her wrists:

Papa didn't answer, only looked down at their hands. His gaze followed hers and for the first time Mack noticed the scars in her wrists, like those he now assumed Jesus also had on his. She allowed him to tenderly touch the scars, outlines of a deep piercing, and he finally looked up again into her eyes. Tears were slowly making their down down her face, down little pathways through the flour that dusted her cheeks.

"Don't ever think that what my son chose to do didn't cost us dearly. Love always leaves a significant marl," she stated softly and gently. "We were there together" (pg. 95-96).

You'll also notice that Papa said, 'We were there together' - this in reference to the cross. Now comes the fun part, you have your pick of heresies: Patripassionism, Sabellianism (Modalism) and / or Noeticism (that's a lot of 'isms' and I'm sure I missed a few). I believe I would be correct in stating that our author - Young - actually misunderstands God and this is quite evident through his misunderstanding of the Trinity. God the Father doesn't have scar marks on His wrist (never mind God the Father never corporeally manifesting) and He was not crucified on the cross with Jesus, nor was Jesus a modal expression of God the Father.

Fiction or not, you'd all be very offended if I wrote a novel about 'Zombie Nazi baby Jesus' (as I suspect some are offended at my mere suggestion) - so why not when it applies to more (abstract) theological matters?

[Gulah Papyrus]

It is up to us to search the Scriptures, learn of God, rightly divide His word. Then He will make some things clear to us through the power of the Holy Spirit and His word, the Bible.

So there is something that God has made clear to you through your study that causes you to read The Shack and see a book that is far more evil than good? Please explain what he showed you, and how He got you there...I know there isn't exact scripture, but what were some of the verses that He used to 'show' you?

Isn't learning about the Lord worth some study and time?

Absolutely! I love it! I guess The Lord just hasn't shown me The Trinity, and the importance in why it must be understood so correctly. I'm still at the 'love your neighbor', 'always trust in God', 'do His will' stage of my walk. Though I trust He will show me 'The Trinity' when it's time.

[Gulah Papyrus]

I think they're nearly one in the same; you can't understand God unless you also have an understanding of the Trinity. I'm saying there's a difference between a lack of understanding and a blatant misunderstanding of the Trinity. Don't take this as me suggesting we exhaustively understand the Trinity, we don't. However, as an example of blatant misunderstanding I'll refer to the following scenario.

As we all know in The Shack we meet a 'large beaming African-American woman' named Papa, otherwise known in Christian scripture as God the Father. If this isn't bad enough, 'Papa' shows Mack the nail scars on her wrists:

Papa didn't answer, only looked down at their hands. His gaze followed hers and for the first time Mack noticed the scars in her wrists, like those he now assumed Jesus also had on his. She allowed him to tenderly touch the scars, outlines of a deep piercing, and he finally looked up again into her eyes. Tears were slowly making their down down her face, down little pathways through the flour that dusted her cheeks.

"Don't ever think that what my son chose to do didn't cost us dearly. Love always leaves a significant marl," she stated softly and gently. "We were there together" (pg. 95-96).

You'll also notice that Papa said, 'We were there together' - this in reference to the cross. Now comes the fun part, you have your pick of heresies: Patripassionism, Sabellianism (Modalism) and / or Noeticism (that's a lot of 'isms' and I'm sure I missed a few). I believe I would be correct in stating that our author - Young - actually misunderstands God and this is quite evident through his misunderstanding of the Trinity. God the Father doesn't have scar marks on His wrist (never mind God the Father never corporeally manifesting) and He was not crucified on the cross with Jesus, nor was Jesus a modal expression of God the Father.

Fiction or not, you'd all be very offended if I wrote a novel about 'Zombie Nazi baby Jesus' (as I suspect some are offended at my mere suggestion) - so why not when it applies to more (abstract) theological matters?

Yeah, but when one of my own children suffer, it definitely scars me, maybe not on my actual body, but it scars my heart. I would much rather it me suffer than my children because it hurts me more to see them suffer than it does to experience it myself, so in a way God did suffer the sacrifice, and in some ways more than Christ Himself. God didn't just sacrifice Himself, He went one further and Sacrificed His only begotten but God definitely shared in the suffering and I'm sure He has His fair share of 'scars'....no?

I guess I saw Papa's(and I have no problem with Papa being presented as a black women, to me it showed that God can live in any one's heart, no matter the gender or the race) scars as representing the fact that the entire Godhead sacrificed in one way or another. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are a lot closer to each other than I am to my kids, and to see my kids suffering is much more powerful, and painful for me than the suffering I go through myself...and it cuts much deeper...and the deeper the cut, the bigger the scar.

Oh, and I don't know what those 'isms' are, I will have to look that stuff up sometime soon.

[fuzzi]

So there is something that God has made clear to you through your study that causes you to read The Shack and see a book that is far more evil than good? Please explain what he showed you, and how He got you there...I know there isn't exact scripture, but what were some of the verses that He used to 'show' you?

Through my study I have come to have a greater understanding of Scripture, overall, and the doctrines contained within.

When I was a fairly new Christian, the 'Left Behind' books were being published, and I started reading them. I thought they were great. However, an older and more mature Christian commented on them at a prayer meeting, going into how certain aspects of the books weren't Scriptural.

As I had little experience reading God's word, and was not grounded in doctrine, I wasn't familiar with what she was talking about, and so I did not recognize the erroneous teaching found in the 'Left Behind' books for what it was. If I read them again today, I would see it immediately.

And how would I notice it? Partly by knowing sound doctrine, and partly through the leading of the Holy Spirit, reminding me that what I was reading was not truth.

Does that help any?

Oh, and here's a great reference to the Holy Spirit helping us in this manner:

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27)

Let the Holy Spirit guide you: pray before you read something, asking the Lord to make clear to you what is truth and what is error. He will do that.

[Gulah Papyrus]

As I had little experience reading God's word, and was not grounded in doctrine, I wasn't familiar with what she was talking about, and so I did not recognize the erroneous teaching found in the 'Left Behind' books for what it was. If I read them again today, I would see it immediately.

So you think The Left Behind series is heretical and dangerous? And do you think Satan is ultimately the one behind it, like some do The Shack?

I don't agree with the Left Behind theory either, but are those who do in danger of being lead astray? What about those who read LB for other reasons while disagreeing with pre-trib rapture? Are they in 'danger' of being lead astray?

(AK, didn't we go down this road in the not so distant past?...but you took the side of 'pre trib' not being dangerous, and scorned those who eluded to the idea...what am I missing?)

What is more dangerous...Left Behind or The Shack?

[9Marksfan]

What do you like about it?

Everything - full of relevant scriptures and godly wisdom. Listen, Gulah, the bottom line is that the Bible is the definitive revelation of God and we are commanded to believe it - it's not an option for Christians. God is clearly revealed in Scripture as One but also having three Persons - Father, Son and Spirit - the overall teaching of Scripture testifies to this. Is there mystery? You bet! Is it beyond our grasp to fathom? Absolutely? Dare we deny it or consider it something to conjecture about or play with? No way! This is the HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS GOD OF THE UNIVERSE!!!!!!! XelN'aga's post is worth digesting - God is Triune, so therefore to misunderstand the Trinity is indeed to misunderstood the God of the Bible, where He is revealed as being Triune.

What aspect(s) of the Trinity don't you get?