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http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive...en.html#mithra
This link describes the many "Saviors" of different cultures. All are before the time of Christ. I would like to hear your take. If this gets deleted i'll know why, but i'll understand. I would like to note that there are no eye witness testimonies for Jesus at all.
Coffee Break
Have you read the New Testament?Originally Posted by questionmark
Member
yes ive read the new testament
Coffee Break
Learn to recognize the original, then you won't be fooled by copies.
Member
Original? I'm sorry i don't understand. I have a bible, and i've read it actively since i was able to read. Is there imposters out there? Plus, i need your thought on the other "saviors."
Aufgepaßt - ich komme!
Well, the details of those 'saviors' are historically completely incorrect and falsified, any student of history who didn't hop on the Zeitgeist bandwagon knows this. Though we'd have to go through them one by one to show why (it's not too hard) these 'saviors' aren't comparable to Jesus and lack any historical backing for the claims made. I don't foresee this thread being closed (you never know though?), why would you be worried about that?
I would also like to note that there are eye witness testimonies for Jesus.
Coffee Break
Yes, Jesus said that after him would come impostors saying, "I am the Christ." Jesus is the real, actual savior. There is no other besides him by which we can find eternal life.
And I agree with Xel'naga. There are many factual errors in such websites as the one you presented.
Member
Bandwagon? Zeitgeist!?! These both suggest that i'm included in the spirit of time (Zeit-time geist-spirit hahaha). I currently live in the bible belt where i am a minority. Not that it would matter because we all live in a dominating Christian nation. Pretty insulting to suggest i am not a real student of history, how dare i think outside the box. Though, thank you for your very inciteful point of view. It shall help ye make ye decision.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm
Well here's another one. This website is maintained by multi faith based web masters. Including Christians.
Coffee Break
You may have misunderstood. Xel'Naga's reference was to a documentary called Zeitgeist, which has been around for a year or so, and talks about the things you mentioned. You aren't the first person to bring this subject here.
Member
I have honestly never heard of this movie, and now i understand. Still, inconclusive to the subject at hand. although i do feel the "heat" of emotions.
Aufgepaßt - ich komme!
You're welcome to 'think outside the box' all you like, I'm still going to question whether or not the views you've come up with (or adopted from others) - while 'thinking outside the box' - are warranted, historical beliefs given the information available. If indeed you are a real student of history (I apologize if I insinuated otherwise) then you won't mind examining the claims of both the aforementioned websites (focusing more on religious tolerance since they say the same thing and it's easier to sort through).
I would like to mention my uncertainty of an article written almost exclusively from Harpur's Pagan Christ and Google (see footnote 6). The issue with Harpur's book is that the foundation for his writing - Higgins, Massey and Kuhn - is predicated upon poor history, even worse research on the part of the aforementioned authors. Another author who held to the above beliefs is Miller, however his views are equally as mistaken (and unfortunately cited).
So lets go through a few things, I'll post what I know and you can perhaps come back and substantiate your view, perhaps I'm overlooking pertinent historical documents. Oh and by the way, there is no 'heat' of emotions - I simply enjoy a good debate; examinations of my beliefs as they are challenged by those around me. Anyway... Let's deal with a few claims.
1. Horus was born of a virgin, the only begotten son of the God Osiris whose mother was Isis-Meri.
In reviewing the 'birth narrative' of Horus I'm actually unable to find anything remotely similar to the claim above or to the birth narrative of Jesus. The 'birth narrative' of Horus as held in Egyptian mythology is as follows:"But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it. The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..." [CANE:2:1702]You'll find that Isis and Osiris were married; there's nothing too virginal about that (hence, no comparison to Jesus' birth narrative). There is absolutely nothing in the Horus myth to suggest 'only begotten son' status and furthermore 'Isis-Meri' is not the name 'Mary'.
2. Both had 'foster fathers' named Joseph (Seb).
Seb (or Geb) was the father of Osiris, who was the father of Horus. Seb (Geb) being a distinct name from Joseph. I can provide links to this if you wish, however, it's fairly common knowledge.
3. Both of royal descent.
No disagreement here.
4. Horus and Jesus were both born in caves.
I haven't found any stories claiming Horus was born in a cave. Rather, he was born in a swamp.
5. Birth was announced by angels, stars and shepherds.
Nothing in the Horus account of angels, stars or shepherds.
6. Birth date, winter solstice.
Horus was born the 31st day of the Egyptian month Khoiak, what we would call November 15th. Jesus wasn't born on December 25th...
Now, I could keep going with this but do you see my point? There is absolutely no historical substantiation of any of the claimed similarities between Horus and Jesus, in fact there are examples above of such poor historical inquiry that there are factual details that are wrong (such as Seb (Geb) being the father of Horus). The fact of the matter is that if I kept going down the list (and this would be the same for Mithra, Dionysus, Krishna, etc.) we would come to the same conclusions - these claims are fictional, unsupported and not believed (initially) by the cultures these beliefs originate in.
Now on the other hand there is quite a lot supporting the view that Jesus existed as a historical person, that is a real good discussion if you're willing to get into it. As for the above, well, unfortunately to say it's shoddy. You know what they say, how can I fully understand, appreciate and defend my views if I don't also understand those views contrary and inimical to mine?
By the way, I'm not a fan of the King James BibleToo many 'ye's'.
Last edited by Athanasius; May 2nd 2009 at 09:32 PM.
I love the Lord!
Hi and welcome.
I'm curious as to why you say there were no eye witnesses for Jesus Christ and you say you have read the New Testament.
There is but one Savior,God's Son Jesus Christ. You mentioned you wanted some of our thoughts on "other" saviors. Since this is a Christian message board we only know of One Savior,Jesus Christ the Son of the One True Living God.
Do you have any questions about Him? We would love to answer those.
Praying for you since you have read the Bible, you have read the truth. Hope you find it in your heart to accept it.
.................The message of the cross divides the human race." ~MW~
........ ... " LORD, I beseech thee, let now thine ear be attentive to the prayer of thy servant..."
.................................................. .................................................. ...Nehemiah 1:11a
Jesus is enough
1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
There is an eyewitness for you from one of the men who was closest to the Savior (and was testified to be by other accounts, such as noted in the Gospels by Matthew, Mark and Luke).
So, I'm really not quite certain where your "no eyewitness testimony" is rooted in?
... The notation that there are no eye witness accounts, be provably false, was bound to draw fire right away. Every student of Christianity 101 will chuckle at that one. But I'm going to just go to the heart of the issue because debating with an intentional unbeliever is foolishness anyway. You can read Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Philippians 'til the cows come home by themselves to be milked and you'll still laugh at all five witnesses.
... First point and all important is, "You must do something about the work Jesus did on the cross, in your behalf, before you an ever satisfy your desire to know the truth." You see, it's simple, it's just like being being an American. You and I are both Americans (and I'm assuming that you have not been to war, yet) and as such I fully appreciate this country and except you learn what I know (may God forbid) you will never love this country and these people the way I do. You cannot even understand what I am saying because you've never picked your best friend up, from across the landscape and placed all the pieces you could find in a body bag for his parents to bury.
... In that same way, you have refused to deal with God about your eternal destination and until you do God will not give you the knowledge that I seek for you to have. It's just like combat, you can watch the John Wayne movies 'til those cows come home but until you've taken that weapon in your hand and tried to kill that man that is bent on killing you, you'll only have an empty image of the truth. In the same way, you can read the Bible and watch Christians make mistakes until the Rapture passes but until you approach the Master of the universe on His terms He will not speak with you.
... Second and last point, pick up a copy of the single volume edition of the Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, over 99% of the known extra-biblical proofs kown to man are there-in. Because there is a complete bibliography for the statements in that book, be prepared to spend the next five years researching the reasons for eating your words.
... Most of all, I have prayed for God to bless you with the desire to find the truth of this matter and to meet me in Heaven.
Senior Member
Did Jesus exist? Yes, He does....
The hymnwriter wrote:
I serve a risen Saviour,
He's in the world today;
I know that He is living,
Whatever men may say;
I see His hand of mercy,
I hear His voice of cheer,
And just the time I need Him
He's always near.
Chorus:
He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives
today!
He walks with me and He talks with me
Along life's narrow way.
He lives, He live, salvation to impart!
You ask me how I know He lives:
He lives within my heart.
Every saved person is a first person eyewitness of sorts...imo.
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