Osas?-moved from ETC

[JWayne]

I have not seen one person that disgrees with watchman, in the slightest, say they justify sin, no where. Not one person. What I have seen is watchman call himself Jesus, and tell me that I am calling Jesus a sinner when I say he is a sinner.

What is it that the bible warns us of...beware of those who claim to be the Christ.

[grit]

It's also worth noting the rather glaring difference in definition of OSAS that thread participants are using, and how this illogic of misinformation in communication is being used contrary to the Scriptures posted to demonize a position not held by an opposing side of what otherwise might be a profitable debate.

Keep those prayers a-goin', family.

[Vhayes]

I never said you did, however many that falsely believe in OSAS do see it as a justification for sin, and they continue in it unaware that they will one day face God on Judgment day to be sent away to outer darkness.

Watchman, I'll be very serious here. I have seen people who thought they could justify their sin because all was forgiven. I talked to them until I was blue in the face. They were my friends and I loved them.

God started discipling them one by one in small way. The discipline increased. Most recognized it for what it was and came to a new appreciation for their relationship with their Father. One did not - he was very hedonistic. God took him out - he died because he literally preached that he could do anything he wanted because he was forgiven. I believe God took him home before he could cause irreparable harm to some of his brothers and sisters.

God is faithful to His promises even of we are not. He promised eternal life in the Son. That's what I hang on to. It IS all about Him and what He has done.

I appreciate your zeal. The reason I started participating in this thread was to show you that those of us who believe in eternal security do so because that's what we have been shown using the same scripture you use. I asked and will ask again that you not accuse those of us who believe in eternal security of calling God a liar. That's insulting and gets all of us nowhere.

Thank you for the polite discussion -
V

[Partaker of Christ]

If OSAS IS true the Jesus is a liar. He said we must bare good fruit and stay on the straight path to inherit eternal life.
Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The people who Jesus told to depart, honestly believed they were saved yet the practiced sin, therefore were banished. The foolish man that fell was also at one point a Christian, but did not keep the teachings of Christ therefore He fell.


If OSAS IS true then Jesus is a liar.

Jesus is speaking of false prophets, who are ravening wolves in sheep's clothing.

When they met the Lord, they made boast of their 'good' works.
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power of God.

Jesus also says that you cannot have good fruit from a bad tree, but you shall know them by their fruit (not their works)

[Watchmen]

Watchman, I'll be very serious here. I have seen people who thought they could justify their sin because all was forgiven. I talked to them until I was blue in the face. They were my friends and I loved them.

God started discipling them one by one in small way. The discipline increased. Most recognized it for what it was and came to a new appreciation for their relationship with their Father. One did not - he was very hedonistic. God took him out - he died because he literally preached that he could do anything he wanted because he was forgiven. I believe God took him home before he could cause irreparable harm to some of his brothers and sisters.

God is faithful to His promises even of we are not. He promised eternal life in the Son. That's what I hang on to. It IS all about Him and what He has done.

I appreciate your zeal. The reason I started participating in this thread was to show you that those of us who believe in eternal security do so because that's what we have been shown using the same scripture you use. I asked and will ask again that you not accuse those of us who believe in eternal security of calling God a liar. That's insulting and gets all of us nowhere.

Thank you for the polite discussion -
V

I appreciate this post and understand your point, but the New Covenant is a two party conditional agreement, and just as God does not force us to come into this agreement via predestination, neither will He force us to remain in it once we have entered in, via OSAS. However I do agree God is faithful to keep His part of the agreement.

I understand your stance and this is mine, I think we have exhausted this conversation and must simply agree to disagree.

God Bless you in all you do, Vhayes.

[Watchmen]

I have not seen one person that disgrees with watchman, in the slightest, say they justify sin, no where. Not one person. What I have seen is watchman call himself Jesus, and tell me that I am calling Jesus a sinner when I say he is a sinner.

What is it that the bible warns us of...beware of those who claim to be the Christ.

Sorry forgivenwretch, but you are in the wrong forum.

[CommanderRobey]

I never said you did, however many that falsely believe in OSAS do see it as a justification for sin, and they continue in it unaware that they will one day face God on Judgment day to be sent away to outer darkness.

Paul found himself sinning constantly even after he was saved.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

And yet, he never lost his Salvation. He kept the faith, he finished the course.

One is not sinlessly perfect upon Salvation and will not be sinlessly perfect as long as on is in the weak flesh.

You may want to rethink your theology, Watchman

[Watchmen]

Paul found himself sinning constantly even after he was saved.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

And yet, he never lost his Salvation. He kept the faith, he finished the course.

One is not sinlessly perfect upon Salvation and will not be sinlessly perfect as long as on is in the weak flesh.

You may want to rethink your theology, Watchman

Sorry but as usual you missed the whole point of Paul's dissertation of Romans 7-8. It was not to justify sin, nor to say we were incapable of not sinning, but that we need to walk in the Spirit rather than our flesh because in our own ability we cannot help from sinning. However through the Spirit if wee walk in the Spirit we are in fact capable of keeping God's commandments.


It is you that needs to rethink their theology.

[Partaker of Christ]

All things are possible for God, but we have free will God will not force us to do anything we are not willing to do. If we choose to turn from our faith He will allow it.

I am afraid you make your will to be your god.
Who is Lord? Watchmen or God?

Jesus Christ is BOTH Saviour AND Lord.
If you receive Christ as Saviour, then you receive Him as Lord.

The Lordship of Jesus Christ, is not some optional extra. If He is not Lord of your life, then He is not Saviour of your life. You receive fully Jesus Christ as He is (the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Light, the Saviour and the Lord), or you don't receive Him at all.

Do you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ IS Lord?
Is He Lord, or are you lord?

This means you (your sovereign free will) is no longer lord. You are no longer your own, for you have been bought with a price. Your body and spirit now belong to God.
You are no longer your own, means that you once were your own, but no longer are.
You are now under new ownership and under new management.

Throughout the scripture, it speaks of how man has to obey God's will, because God is God.
I find nothing in the scripture that say's God has to do mans will. If God were to do your will, then you would be His god.

You are never saved because of your own will, but because of His will. It is His will that you are saved, and you surrender your will, to do His will and obey the gospel of grace through faith.

[Partaker of Christ]

IF we continue in the faith and are not moved away from our hope.

Paul says 'if YOU' continue in the faith.
Why didn't he say 'If WE' continue in the faith?

Because Paul had show fruit, and the Colossians (and many of the other Churches) were still young in the Lord. There was no fruit evidence, that they had truly receive the word and understood it.

You don't just put a seed in the ground, and immediately bare fruit. The seed needs good ground, and then it can take root. Then when it is grounded and rooted, it will grow and eventually bare fruit.

Until we see the fruit, we don't know what seed it is (wheat or tare), and if it has taken any root.

You shall know them by their fruit. So until there is visible fruit as evidence, we should not be presumptuous.

[Partaker of Christ]

If you are right and I am wrong, I have not harmed you in the least by suggesting you need to live a more godly life. If, however, I am right and you are wrong, thousands (possibly including you) will come to the knowledge of these truths only as they arrive in eternity and to their horror discover they are forever condemned to Hell.

"I have not harmed you in the least by suggesting you need to live a more godly life"

That again is wrong. To think that your view does no harm.

For over 40 years in the Lord, I stood on the same view as you hold. The yoke I carried was often to much to bare. I was striving in my own strength to keep my salvation. Yes I bore some fruit, but also many thistles and thorns.

I have seen many damaged Christians, who were taught the same error. There witness to others is hindered. Never sure if they will yet be saved, how could they proclaim salvation to others?

Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth

Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
Joel 2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

[Watchmen]

"I have not harmed you in the least by suggesting you need to live a more godly life"

That again is wrong. To think that your view does no harm.

My view is the truth of scripture, your is not only unbiblical but indeed does do people harm.

[Watchmen]

Paul says 'if YOU' continue in the faith.
Why didn't he say 'If WE' continue in the faith?

He wrote you because Paul was not including himself, he was writing to the Colossians. Regardless if whether or not Paul said we including himself or you referring to others outside of himself. He still stated that we will only be reconciled to God holy, and unblameable IF we do not turn from our faith and loose our hope. Proving it is possible and disproving OSAS.

[Watchmen]

I am afraid you make your will to be your god.
Who is Lord? Watchmen or God?

I unlike you serve to only true God, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, The God of the Bible.

The real question is who do you serve?

[Veretax]

My view is the truth of scripture, your is not only unbi9blical but indeed does do people harm.

Watchman, I think you are treading on thin ice here. You beleive your view of scripture is the truth, but as we attest to some disagree with your view. I'd urge everyone to be cautious as this thread is coming close to being a tit for tat kind of thing, and that is certainly not edifying to the body of Christ.