Osas?-moved from ETC

[Watchmen]

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:15)

I am ready. What is it you would like to know?

[fuzzi]

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." (John 9:39-41)

[Watchmen]

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." (John 9:39-41)

So fuzzi, are you blind or do you see?

[fuzzi]

I am ready. What is it you would like to know?

Let's see...

Watchman you are giving a lot of view with no scripture to back you up. I would suggest if you want to prove these believers wrong such as Vertax and partaker of Christ you need to prove yourself with scripture.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 *Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

And you replied:

You must not have read through this thread I have given no less than 15 passages of scripture. How much scripture is needed to prove the truth?

The answer is, as much as it takes.

When you discount a response that contains Scripture, but offer no Scripture yourself, then it suggests that your position isn't Scriptural.

[fuzzi]

So fuzzi, are you blind or do you see?

I see. The Lord opened my eyes, and I cannot thank Him enough:

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind but now I see.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed...

And He'll never leave or forsake me, I am His and He is mine, for all eternity.

To who else could I go? My Lord and Saviour has the words of eternal life.

[Watchmen]

Let's see...


And you replied:



The answer is, as much as it takes.

When you discount a response that contains Scripture, but offer no Scripture yourself, then it suggests that your position isn't Scriptural.

I didn't discount the qquestion because of its scripture, I discounted (if you even want to call it that) because the basis of the question was false. Tom claimed i had given information without scripture, when if he would have read through the thread he would have seen that I had given more than an ample amount of scripture. Does Tom need more or do you, then I will be happy to provide it, but to claim none was given is simply false.

[Watchmen]

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." (John 9:39-41)

So fuzzi, are you blind or do you see?

I see. The Lord opened my eyes, and I cannot thank Him enough:

So since you claim to see does that mean your sin remains, and if not what is the point of you referencing John 9:39-41?

[fuzzi]

I didn't discount the qquestion because of its scripture, I discounted (if you even want to call it that) because the basis of the question was false. Tom claimed i had given information without scripture, when if he would have read through the thread he would have seen that I had given more than an ample amount of scripture. Does Tom need more or do you, then I will be happy to provide it, but to claim none was given is simply false.

I have read this entire thread, and I have seen example over and over again of others giving you Scripture, and you responding without using any Scripture, to back up your position.

If I took the time to quote all the Scripture you posted, and responded, explaining why I thought you were mistaken, you would probably do the same as you've done with others here: disagree without using God's word to back up your beliefs.

When you don't use God's word, when you don't back up your beliefs with Scripture, it shows that you probably are basing your beliefs on your opinion, on that which seems right to you.

And that's not edifying.

So since you claim to see does that mean your sin remains, and if not what is the point of you referencing John 9:39-41?

You asked me if I was blind or did I see. Since I have "Yes, I am a Christian" on each of my posts, I think it would be self-evident that I consider myself to be one of Christ's, one of God's children. As it has been stated here, don't try to judge the condition of others' hearts. Only God knows for sure.

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." (John 9:39-41)

The Pharisees took offense at Jesus implying that they were blind. Why did He imply they were blind? Probably because they refused to accept that which was right in front of their eyes, the miracles, the signs that Jesus was the Messiah. The Pharisees claimed to be righteous, and they were, outwardly, but not inwardly.

They did that which looked good, but didn't do that which was pleasing to God.

It just seemed like an appropriate Scripture to post.

[Watchmen]

I have read this entire thread, and I have seen example over and over again of others giving you Scripture, and you responding without using any Scripture, to back up your position.

O.K. here ya go.
Matthew 13:3
3 And He spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold a sower went out to sow.
4 And when He had sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them:
5 Some fell upon the stony places where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 and when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some feel among thorns; and thorns spring up, and choked them:
8 But others fell on good ground and brought forth fruit, some a hundred fold, some sixty fold, and some thirty fold.
18 Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in their heart. This is he that received the seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed in the stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and anon with joy receives it;
21 Yet he has no root in himself, but dureth for a while; for when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word he is offended.
22 He also that receives seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word of he becomes unfruitful.
23 But he that received the seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty.
Here we see 4 groups of people; 1 group rejects the word, 3 groups accept the word yet 2/3 of them turned from their salvation and only 1 group of the 3 groups that accepted the word actually hold fast to their salvation producing fruits. Luke 8:13 puts it like this.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while they believe, and in a time of temptation they fall away.
A quarter reject the word, half fall away, and only a quarter keep the word. So not only can we fall away but in this particular parable most do.



The good Olive Tree. (Romans 11:22)
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
There is no question here that those that were once ''grafted in (saved) can afterwards be cut off (backslide). In context Paul is writing to believing Gentiles about unbelieving Jews.
Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into their own olive tree?
Here we see the unbelieving Jews were cut out and the believing Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree. There is no guarantee of Eternal Security, as a matter of fact it's just the opposite. If we do not continue in God's goodness we will be cut off.
Verse 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
The Jews were cut off because of unbelief but the scripture says that we as Gentiles will be cut off because we do not continue in God's goodness. If we are cut off it is because of sin not unbelief; the unbelieving Gentile would have never been grafted in in the first place.



Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.




Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those that were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance seeing they crucify themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This passage of scripture is scary but it does need to be addressed. It is obvious that the people referred to in these verses were at one time saved and that they were able to fall away. It also says that there are places you can go in God that after you been to these heights if you were to fall away you cannot return. How far or deep you need to be in God to reach this point, I do not know. However what is clear is that the OSAS doctrine does not mesh with this passage of scripture.
A better question for those of you that adhere to the OSAS doctrine, rather than what is the point of no return, is can you turn from God after salvation? Better yet, are you now living in a backslidden condition without even realizing it? Do you care more about you own life, cares, wants, lusts than about serving God? Have you placed yourself above God? If so you have fallen away and are in desperate need of repentance.



Returning to your own vomit 2nd Peter 2:20-22
2nd Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.
Let's look at these verses one at a time.
Verse 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
These people were definitely saved, because they did not just know about Jesus, but they had escaped the pollutions of the world through their knowledge of Christ. The scripture says that after they were saved if they return to their sin they are worse off than from the beginning. Under the false teaching of Eternal Security this is impossible. They could not be worse off than before they were saved because they would still be saved and on their way to Heaven. Yet scripture says they are worse off than before they were saved. So who is right? God or the promoters of eternal Security?
Verse 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Once again you cannot be better off never being saved than backslidden if Eternal Security was true. Before they were saved they were on their way to hell, and you can not be better off going to Hell than Heaven. Scripture says people that turn from their faith are worse off than those that have never been saved at all. People that turn from God after salvation will not only go to hell but they will receive even worse punishment than those that never accept Jesus at all.
I will touch more on this in a future chapter about Christians that return to or continue in sin when I get to Hebrews 10:26-31 but right now let's look at what Jesus said in Luke 12:47-48
Luke 12:47-48
47 And the servant, which knew his lord's will and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did thing worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Those that have been saved and truly know God's will, if they fall away they will suffer worse than those that never knew God or His will at all.
Verse 22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.
When we as Christians turn back to sin it is like a dog returning to his own vomit. Also those of us that have had our sins washed away by the blood of Christ. If we turn from Him and back to the world, then it is like a pig that had been washed returning to the mud pit.


There is no question that all of these passages individually and definitely in combination prove that the Eternal Security/OSAS doctrine is unbiblical at best and a lie of Satan at worst.
These next groups of scripture will show us what Jesus Himself had to say to the church in Asia. You will see clearly that he tells many to repent. People in these churches were all at one time saved, yet Jesus tells them to repent or else as you will see.



Revelation 2:1-5, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 3:1-5
Revelation 2:1-5
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven candle sticks;
2 I know thy works and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou can not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them that say they are apostles, and are not and found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name sake thou hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly and remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
If anyone need not to repent and to be secure about their salvation it seems to be these people, yet they were doing and saying all the right things. Jesus said their hearts were not right before God and told them they needed to repent. Also notice that at one time their hearts were right because he said ''you left your first love'' not that you had never loved Him. So they had grown cold towards God after once loving Him and as Jesus clearly stated they were in need of repentance ''or else''
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come against you quickly, and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
This was written to a church, the church at Pergamos. Jesus is returning at the end of the Tribulation to reward the righteous and destroy the wicked. Those in the church that refuse to repent will be included with the wicked unless they repent, whether they 'believe themselves to be ''Christians'' or not.
Revelation 3:1-5
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works, that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.
Let look at this passage one verse at a time,
Verse 1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works , that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.
This verse reminds me more of the ''American'' church than any in Revelation. Many would argue that the lukewarm church in Laodicea in Revelation 3:14-22 is more representative of the American church, but I believe the church today is more than lukewarm. In many cases, I believe the church has become completely dead. We have a name that lives ''Jesus Christ'' but we ourselves are spiritually dead, having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. We say we are alive in God but we are dead in our sins.
Verse 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.
I believe the message in this verse is that our relationship to God is not self-sustainable but requires work on our part to continue to strengthen ourselves in Him. If not it will fade away, just like any other relationship.
Verse 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Jesus tells them unless they repent he will come against them as a thief and we see in 1st Thessalonians 5:2-4 that Jesus will not come against the righteous as a thief but only the unbelieving and the wicked.
1st Thessalonians 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Jesus is speaking to the church, to believers, yet He tells them to repent or else He will come against them. This is clear that the OSAS doctrine is false. They were at one time right before God, yet unless they repent they would forfeit their right standing in his eyes.
Verse 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.
Just like in America, although most in the church are not truly saved. There were a few that did obey God and refrained from sin not defiling their garment. It's those people and those alone that will walk with Jesus in white garment, not the entire church.
Verse 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Only those that overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life. Two points to be made here: #1 Jesus would not have needed to tell the overcomers that their names would not be blotted out if it were impossible for anyone to ever have their names blotted out of the book of life. #2. Those who do not overcome will indeed have their names blotted out, and Jesus will not confess your name before the Father.


Remember, Jesus was speaking to the church, people that had once been saved, and probably believed themselves to still be. But they had fallen short of their call and had knowingly or unknowingly fallen away from God. Jesus tells them they were in need of repentance and would endure the judgments of the wicked unless they repented.
Today's church, especially in America, is in serious need of repentance. They twist scripture to teach dangerous false doctrines such as Eternal Security and many others. They also use scripture to make excuses for their sin. The church may turn a blind eye to your sin but God will not.

[Watchmen]

Need more scripture? O.K.

[Butch5]

Partaker---Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;


Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.


Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

How do any of these prove there was no fruit from the Galatians? Do you know what Paul is referencing here?

Partaker---Col 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

What does this have to do with the question? When a farmer plants crops does he know what he has planted? Does he just ramdomly cast seed without any knowledge of what it is?

[Watchmen]

Scriptures that show that no sinner shall inherit God's Kingdom

Romans 1:29-32
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murders, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they that commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
So it is not only those that live in sin that are worthy of death, but those that accept it and or take pleasure in those that live in sin.



1st Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornication, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Pretty clear, there is no if, and, or buts, those that live in sin will not make it to heaven.



Colossians 3:24-25
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for you serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
We that serve the Lord shall receive our inheritance, but those that commit sin shall also receive what they deserve. God will not turn a blind eye to your sin, while judging others for theirs, for there is no respect with God. He treats us all equally.



Ephesians 5:1-7
1 Be you therefore followers of God as dear children,
2 And walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not once be named among you, as becometh saint;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
The scripture is clear, no sinner has any inheritance in the kingdom of God nor of Christ. It also emphatically states that you should not allow yourself to be deceived by vain talkers, such as those that promote the OSAS doctrine. If you partake in the sins of the world you will also partake in the wrath of God with them.



Revelation 21:7-8
7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This passage states that the overcomers shall inherit all things but that all sinners will burn in the lake of fire. So if you claim yourself to be a ''sinner'' saved by grace then you will burn with the sinners. If you think you can continue in sin without consequence you are mistaken.

All sinners will be judged. Whether they say they are saved, believe themselves to be saved. Whether they believe in Jesus or have been baptized or not. No sin nor those who commit sin will enter into Heaven.

[Watchmen]

More?........ O.K.

[Watchmen]

Scriptures that show no confessing Christian that continues in sin shall not inherit God's Kingdom

I've heard it said somewhere that the main cause of atheism are Christians. Christians that claim Christ with their lip but deny Him with their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world finds so unbelievable. Most of you would agree that atheism in America is dangerous. What I find much more dangerous than atheist is the modern day lukewarm American so called Christian professing Christ in word but denying Him in deed being abominable, disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate; Titus 1:16. When a person claims Christianity and goes to church every Sunday but lives in sin, in open rebellion against God and His word. That is far more sinister than the hard core atheist shaking his fist toward the sky cursing the God they claim not to believe in. Not only does it bring shame to the name of Jesus every time one of the sinners claim Him as their Savior, but it is a slap in the face to every true Christian honestly trying their best to live a life pleasing to God.


Let's see what the bible teaches about those that claim Christ name yet continue in sin.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that say unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that does the will of my father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name did many wonderful works?
23 And I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
These are the words of Jesus Himself. He declares there will be people that claim him as Lord, yet he will profess to them, "I never knew you, you who work iniquity" (or make it a practice of committing sin). We can debate if these people were ever actually saved or if they are what some call ''false converts'', but this we do know. These people truly and whole heartedly believed themselves to be saved. Matter of fact I believe they were more than just church members, but leaders. As they claim to have prophesied, cast out devils, and done many wonderful works in the name of Jesus. So the question is not whether these spoken of here were backsliders or false converts, but that not all that claim Christianity are Christians. Not all that seem to us to be the most holy are really Christians. Not all that believe Jesus is Lord are truly saved. Not even everyone that honestly believes they are truly saved is on their way to Heaven. But only those that do the will of the Father which is in Heaven. Jesus also said that the way to righteousness is narrow and few will find it.
Matthew 7 13:14
13 Enter ye into the straight gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be there be which go thereat.
14 Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.
My question to you would be: Is there unrepentant sin in your life? Do you obey the will of God or your own flesh? When you meet Jesus on judgment day will He say, well done good and faithful servant or depart from me I never knew you, to those who practice sin?



Romans 6:15-16
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 know you not ,that whom you yield yourselves servant to obey, his servant you are whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness?
Short but not so sweet. You that live in sin are servants of sin and not of God. Jesus said in Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13 that you cannot serve two masters.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters, for either they will hate one and love the other, or else they will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
Luke 16:13 No man can serve two masters, for either they will hate one and love the other, or else they will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
You cannot serve God and money, nor can you serve God and sin, nor can you serve God and self. Choose you this day who you will serve: money, sin, self, or God?



1st Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote to you in an epistle not to company with fornicators.
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then you must ye needs to go out of this world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man be called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not you judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judges. Therefore put away from among you that wicked person.
Paul had instructed the church in Corinth to separate themselves from sinners, but they were allowing sin into the church. They were judging those that were outside of the church as sinners, yet ignoring the sin that was taking place in the church. So Paul had to revise his instructions. That they should not company with those that sin in the church either. Sin is sin whether you go to church and claim Christianity or not. Notice he referred to the offender as ''that wicked person'' although they went to church and claimed to be a brother.



Galatians 5:13-25
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even this, thou shalt love your neighbor as yourself.
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary one to another: so that you cannot do the things you would.
18 But if you be led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust.
25 If we live in the Spirit let us also walk in the Spirit.
We see here that Paul tells us in verse 13 not to use our liberty for an occasion to fulfill our fleshly desire.
Verse 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Paul also tells us we are not under the law ''of sin'' if we are led by the Spirit and not by our flesh.
Verse 18 But if you be led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Paul then tells us what the fruits of the flesh are and that we will not go to heaven, if we allow ourselves fulfill our flesh rather than being led by the Spirit.
Verse 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But if we are led by the Spirit and produce the fruit of the Spirit, then we will not be judged.
Verse 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Paul then goes on to declare in verse 24, that if we truly are in Christ, then we would have crucified the flesh. With all its lusts and desires.
24 And they that are Christ have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust.
Finally he states that if we say we live in the Spirit, we should indeed walk in the Spirit, and not be ruled by our flesh.
25 If we live in the Spirit let us also walk in the Spirit.
So it is clear that our liberty does not give us permission to sin. If we use our liberty to sin, then we are no longer free but once again in bondage to our flesh and will not make it to heaven.



Philippians 3:17-19
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them that walk so as ye us have for an example.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often ,and now tell you even weeping ,that they are enemies of the cross.
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is their shame, who mind earthly things).
Paul shares his heart with us here. We see he instructs us to make examples out of those that walk upright and honestly being obedient to God. For there are many that walk (that is people in the church claiming Christianity) that are enemies of the cross. What made them enemies of the cross? Because they were overtly evil? No, because they minded earthly things. How many in the church today put earthly things above God? The state of the first century church in Macedonia broke Paul's heart just as the state of today's church in America breaks mine. The watered down Eternal Security, Hyper Grace gospel taught in our churches today, may grow attendance, but it does not make true converts. Those that teach such things as well as them that accept and practice it are enemies of the cross. Not the defenders of the true faith, God has called the church to be.



Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God: but in works they do deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
People who support the teachings of Eternal Security, OSAS, and or Hyper Grace say that as long as we have confessed Christ as our Savior, we will not be judged for our sin. But Paul says that there were some that profess they know God but in work, through their disobedience to God's word, they do deny Him. Jesus said in Matthew 10:33 whoever denies Me, I will deny him before My Father.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him I will also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
So whether by our confession or our actions if we deny Christ, He will deny us. Living a lifestyle of sin is denying him regardless of our confessions of faith.




Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again I shall judge my people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This is a straight forward, very harsh word. To those that have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus' death yet continue to willfully commit sin, they will receive the harshest judgment of all. The judgment coming against them will be worse than anyone who has never accepted Jesus at all. Let's section this passage out into two verse sections so we can see exactly what it is actually saying.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
In the Old Testament the priest would go once a year to sacrifice a sacrifice for their own sins and the sins of the people. But now Jesus has given Himself once and for all for the sins of the whole world. Jesus' sacrifice does not just cover our sin; He erases it. So if we continue to sin unrepentantly after we accept his sacrifice, then our profession of faith is mute and our new sins remain. Jesus taught in Luke 24:47 that we not just apolgize of our sin, but that we should repent which includes ''remission'' or refraining from sin.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Jesus said we should teach repentance and remissions of sins, not just forgiveness of them. If we do not teach that we need to depart from sin after salvation, then we are not teaching the gospel that Christ taught. Also if we as individuals do not depart from sin after salvation, we are no longer looking towards the resurrection of the just, but the fiery indignation that will devour the enemies of God.
Hebrews 10:28-29
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite the Spirit of grace?
WOW! It says he that despised Moses' law died without mercy, how much sorer punishment should you be thought worthy of, who trodden under the foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified an unholy thing, and have done so despite the Spirit of grace. Who is it that despised or broke Moses' law? All of us we all have sinned.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
So who are those that have trodden under the foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified an unholy thing? All those that have accept Jesus as Savior but refuse to make Him Lord. All those that have asked for God forgiveness through the blood of Christ, yet continue to sin, refusing to conform to God's word. If you have been saved, if you have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, yet you continue to commit sin, disregarding the God that has saved you. Then you have trodden under the foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified an unholy thing. And worse of all they have done this despite the Spirit of grace, they disregard God Himself as well as His grace given us all to empower us to overcome sin. They remain in sin and still claim Christianity. God says they deserve a much sorer punishment than those that broke Moses' law. Once again all have broke Moses' law, but only those that have once been saved qualify for this much sorer punishment because they know the truth and still refuse to walk in it.
2nd Peter 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse from the than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
You are better off never being saved than after your salvation turning from your faith, and/ or continuing in sin, after making a confession of faith. Those that continue to sin after being saved are no longer breaking Moses' law. They are now stomping on Christ Himself and counting His blood of the new covenant by which they were cleansed an unholy thing and they do this despite the Spirit of grace. It is like spitting in God's face. Not only do they deserve a much more sorer punishment but they will indeed receive it unless they repent and remiss from their sins.
Hebrews 10:30-31
30 For we know him that hath said vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again I shall judge my people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
God will judge His people. God is not only all loving, forgiving, and merciful. Although He is all loving, forgiving, and merciful, He is also a God of vengeance, justice, and judgment. God deserves more than just our love, honor, and praise, but our fear, reverence, and respect also. Those of you that have been taught OSAS have lost your reverential fear of God, so you live your life not fearing God's judgment, you feel you have no need to repent nor remiss from your sins. Therefore on the day of judgment Jesus will tell you, "I never knew you, depart from me you worker of iniquity." Start fearing God now and repent for your sin and turn from your evil ways and God will forgive you, and embrace you as His dear child. If you refuse to repent God will judge you for the works you have done.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

[Butch5]

Partaker---Yes there are times that I sin, but I don't have the Lord's permission to sin. If I do sin then I confess that sin to the Lord, and He then forgives.

Why would I confess my sin to Him, if I was still lord of my life?

OK then, Watchman's point has been made. His case proven.

Partaker---Now, back to my questions to you:

Do you ever have the Lords permission to sin?

Does the Lord say "thou shalt not", or does the Lord say 'hey Butch, it is your free will choice, and I will not force my will upon you'?

Tell us Butch, Who is Lord of your life?

Christ is my Lord, however, as I sit here I can choose to sin, if I do, He will not stop me. He calls us to be obedient, if we were not able to disobey then we would not be able to be obedient.


Hebrews 5:8-9 ( KJV )
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


John 15:10 ( KJV )
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

If we don't keep his commands, we won't remain in His love. Again, if we are not able to disobey then we are not able to be obedient.