I very much doubt that Calvin held to OSAS.Originally Posted by Butch5
Coffee Break
I very much doubt that Calvin held to OSAS.
Coffee Break
How do you figure that?
Coffee Break
As I pointed out, OSAS is a "Free Grace" doctrine, not the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the saints. The two are entirely different.
Senior Member
I also don't believe going down forward in a church saves anyone. There is a fine line between putting one's trust in Christ and going down front because of an emotional experience.
I might add I have come to the conclusion that in large crusades that probably most who go down front have had a conviction of being a sinner perhaps but that doesn't actually exhibits being born again.
I believe when this practice is put on by many denominations it is to build up the membership of those sects that promoted the crusade to start with. Because that was what the crusade's motive was about to start with. And what a better way to weed out the newbies then by having them come down front where they can get contact info the them and invite them to their church.
Tomlane
Coffee Break
Well, Calvin believed that the elect were saved in such a way that they could not be lost. It seems to me there is not much difference.
guest
This may be true but both are false.I think there is a third camp. OSAS folks are not the same folks who believe in Perseverance of the Saints. OSAS teaches that once a person comes forward at church, confesses a belief in Jesus at that time, that person is saved no matter what they do the rest of their life. Calvinists don't believe that and neither do Arminians.
Edit: Edited to add that OSAS is otherwise known as "Free Grace" theology which is different than the Calvinist "Perseverance of the saints."
Coffee Break
Actually, Perseverance of the saints has biblical support.
But before I go there, let me back up a bit and talk about OSAS and the Free Grace idea.
If I understand OSAS and the Free Grace doctrine, the basis of their main idea is a passage from Romans 10:9-10.
. . . that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:9-10
These brothers and sisters in Christ understand this Romans passage in terms of a mathematical formula. Just as surely as adding one plus one makes two, confessing with the mouth and believing in the heart results in salvation. If a person comes forward at church, confesses Jesus as Lord, and really, really, sincerely believe it he or she is saved at that moment.
Other brothers and sisters will remind them that, though a person is saved when they believe, perseverance in belief is not guaranteed or expected since the Bible continually warns us to keep believing and that only those who continue to believe will be saved, according to other passages.
So the arguments against OSAS tend to reply with "once believed, not always believed."
The doctrine of the "Perseverance of the Saints", unlike OSAS does not affirm that a person is saved immediately upon confession and belief. Rather, Calvinist doctrine teaches that God will save the elect, and that perseverance in belief is evidence of election. In fact, Calvinists teach that regeneration actually precedes faith in the order of salvation, both being a gift of God's grace. And since God intends to save the elect, perseverance is as sure as God's promise.
Senior Member
BroRog, you stated:
It would seem to me that if one has to continue to believe to be saved then that person is not saved for that is working for salvation and is no longer grace.Other brothers and sisters will remind them that, though a person is saved when they believe, perseverance in belief is not guaranteed or expected since the Bible continually warns us to keep believing and that only those who continue to believe will be saved, according to other passages.
Once we believe and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit no one is going to have to keep believing as it to keep their salvation. I'm hoping you didn't mean that the way you stated it or that I taking it. That's like saying once I'm born physically, that if I don't keep believing it I will loose out and vanish. Being born spiritual and being a new creation in Christ won't ever change if a person does not continue to believe for whatever reason. No one can pluck them out of the father's hand. God can't break his word once we are sealed. God doesn't make a creature then destroy it because it is mule headed like all human's are with their sinful natures that will never change until the body is in the grave.
But other than BroRog, your understand is very good and spiritual mature from what I have read of your replies. Keep up the good work.
Tomlane
Coffee Break
So then one can turn away in unbelief and live in unrepentant sin for the rest of their life and they will still be saved?
Senior Member
Butch, you stated:
Butch the issue is wither a person can keep their salvation if they don't persevere in their faith as stated by BroRog.So then one can turn away in unbelief and live in unrepentant sin for the rest of their life and they will still be saved?
BroRog stated:
The reason God promises us eternal life and seal us with his holy spirit, is because he knows before hand we will not persevere in the faith. Because we still have our old flesh and that never changes, it still stays as sin. Also by the same token, our new man can't sin and we have the choice which one we are going to serve. Our new man or our sinful flesh.The doctrine of the "Perseverance of the Saints", unlike OSAS does not affirm that a person is saved immediately upon confession and belief. Rather, Calvinist doctrine teaches that God will save the elect, and that perseverance in belief is evidence of election. In fact, Calvinists teach that regeneration actually precedes faith in the order of salvation, both being a gift of God's grace. And since God intends to save the elect, perseverance is as sure as God's promise.
Ephesians 1:13 *In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 *Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Read the above carefully it says in whom we believe we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Nothing said there about persevering.
Romans 8:8 *So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 *But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 *¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 *But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 *Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 *For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 *For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 *For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 *The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 *¶And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together
Verse 13 says: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
One way we live after the flesh instead of by faith is persevering so we won't loose our salvation. Ether a person has salvation or they don't. Persevering makes salvation conditional. The same thing can be said in a different way, and can be stated as falling away from the faith.
Persevering in the faith means walking in the faith and it is not to keep salvation but to serve Christ as that is a believers reasonable service.
Romans 12:1 *¶I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Keeping in the faith is walking in God's word for that is where faith.
Romans 10:17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
If we choose not to walk in God's word at all then that person will get an early ticket home.
God does not throw us away if he is displeased with or we don't persevere. That is a doctrine of devils.
31 *¶What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 *He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things
If God is with us then how can we possibly be against ourselves? Are we mightier then God? Of course not.
Romans 8:37 *Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 *For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 *Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Since believers are more than conquerors through him that loves us, how in the world can we be failures bye loosing our faith by not persevering when neither depths, nor heights, or any other creature or even death, nor angels can separate us from God.
There fore in conclusion, believing we have to persevere to keep one's salvation is carnal thinking of the natural mind and that is walking after the flesh and that can keep us from finding salvation as a free gift.
Tomlane
If we are to believe scripture:
They would be chastised by our Heavenly Father, who loves His children.
HTH
Hi BroRog!
My understanding of a 'saved' person is one who has received the word and understood (the good ground).
"You will know them by their fruit"
We are not God, and so we are not privy to knowing a persons heart, so we would only know them by their fruit. Until we see the fruit, we must exhort them to continue, persevere, endure.
You might notice that many of these exhortations, were given to newly formed Churches, and Christians, who were still yet fleshy, carnal and still on the milk. You will also notice that the words were "If You" continue. "If You" and not "If We" continue.
If they have fruit, then the word has been received and understood, grounded and rooted. Until there is fruit, there would remain some element of doubt.
Matt 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Matt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Question:
Can a good seed, ever become a bad seed (or a tare)?
I find it amazing that you think it possible, for someone to truly believe, and then later not believe?
Sure, if someone has only mentally believed, they can change their mind. If someone has emotionally acknowledged the truth, and received it with joy, they can change emotionally.
Those who have truly believed, are those who have received the word and understood it.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Matt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Some have a knowledge of the Lord, and some have a knowing the Lord.
Coffee Break
Tomlane,
What you claim is the doctrine of devils, is stated in Scripture. Jesus said, He who endures to the end shall be saved.
Senior Member
Butch you stated: Tomlane,
Butch thank you for your opinion since you gave zero scripture to back you up. Anyone can accuse some of falsehood as you have done. I gave many scriptures and he way I see it you are calling God a liar as well.What you claim is the doctrine of devils, is stated in Scripture. Jesus said, He who endures to the end shall be saved.
Also when you state endure to the end. Endure what Butch?
Your reply is so vague it really not worth a reply without you backing up what you believe.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 *Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Since you have done that based on your lack of scripture, do you agree with 1 Thessalonians 5:21?
If you do at least that would be a starting point for us Butch. Thanks again for replying.
Tomlane
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks