Believers before Christ

[Athanasius]

So, simple question: where did believers who died go before Christ? Enoch and Elijah, for example... Also would appreciate substantiation for the view you hold outside of the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

[-SEEKING-]

Good question. Sadly I don't know either.

[markedward]

Sheol (Hebrew) or hades (Greek). There was no distinction between righteous and wicked here (as far as we can discern outside of that parable)

Earliest absolutely verified example in Scripture: Samuel the prophet. (1 Samuel 28) He had died, and when Saul had the witch of Endor call his spirit, it came "up" from the ground. Heaven certainly is never described as being in the earth, but sheol/hades consistently is described as being the "abode of the dead" in the earth. Samuel could be considered a "righteous" individual, yet he specifically states that the wicked Saul and his sons would join him (verbatim: "you and your sons shall be with me") when they died. (1 Samuel 28.19)

Some claim this was a "familiar spirit" (i.e., a demon) mocking Saul, but there is absolutely no evidence in the text that this individual was anyone other than the actual prophet Samuel. Moreover, if someone claims this is a demon and not the actual Samuel, they run into the problem of his prophecies coming true about Saul's and his sons' deaths. (Besides, the instance of this event isn't entirely without merit: it is almost foreshadowed in 1 Samuel 2.6, when Samuel's mother Hannah describes God as "he brings down to sheol and he raises up." It very well could have been God who allowed Samuel's spirit to be called upon.)

Psalm 16.10 seems to also show that it is the person's spirit or soul that goes to sheol. Psalm 30.3. Psalm 49.15. Psalm 86.13. Psalm 89.48. At the throne judgment in Revelation 20, the dead are "emptied" from hades. Note that the Revelation does not say only the wicked are in hades.

In the case of Enoch. Scripture never says he was taken to heaven. (Well, the New Living Translation does; but the original Hebrew and Greek never says so. This is why the NLT is on my "not to use" list.) Hebrews 11 includes Enoch in the list of people who died in faith. However it was that Enoch was "taken so that he should not see death", he is still included in the list of people who died in faith. If Enoch never actually died, the author of Hebrews could simply have not used him as one of his many examples.

In the case of Elijah. Yes, he was seen taken up to "heaven". But one should know that the word "heaven" could refer to simply the sky, and Elijah was merely taken up into the sky and disappeared from sight. This explains why he was able to mail a letter to the king of Judah some number of years after his disappearance. I consider it very plausible that Elijah was taken away to some other part of the earth, hidden away by God, to live the remainder of his life.

(Hence, "no man has ascended to heaven".)

[Butch5]

Sheol (Hebrew) or hades (Greek). There was no distinction between righteous and wicked here (as far as we can discern outside of that parable)

Earliest absolutely verified example in Scripture: Samuel the prophet. (1 Samuel 28) He had died, and when Saul had the witch of Endor call his spirit, it came "up" from the ground. Heaven certainly is never described as being in the earth, but sheol/hades consistently is described as being the "abode of the dead" in the earth. Samuel could be considered a "righteous" individual, yet he specifically states that the wicked Saul and his sons would join him (verbatim: "you and your sons shall be with me") when they died. (1 Samuel 28.19)

Some claim this was a "familiar spirit" (i.e., a demon) mocking Saul, but there is absolutely no evidence in the text that this individual was anyone other than the actual prophet Samuel. Moreover, if someone claims this is a demon and not the actual Samuel, they run into the problem of his prophecies coming true about Saul's and his sons' deaths. (Besides, the instance of this event isn't entirely without merit: it is almost foreshadowed in 1 Samuel 2.6, when Samuel's mother Hannah describes God as "he brings down to sheol and he raises up." It very well could have been God who allowed Samuel's spirit to be called upon.)

Psalm 16.10 seems to also show that it is the person's spirit or soul that goes to sheol. Psalm 30.3. Psalm 49.15. Psalm 86.13. Psalm 89.48. At the throne judgment in Revelation 20, the dead are "emptied" from hades. Note that the Revelation does not say only the wicked are in hades.

In the case of Enoch. Scripture never says he was taken to heaven. (Well, the New Living Translation does; but the original Hebrew and Greek never says so. This is why the NLT is on my "not to use" list.) Hebrews 11 includes Enoch in the list of people who died in faith. However it was that Enoch was "taken so that he should not see death", he is still included in the list of people who died in faith. If Enoch never actually died, the author of Hebrews could simply have not used him as one of his many examples.

In the case of Elijah. Yes, he was seen taken up to "heaven". But one should know that the word "heaven" could refer to simply the sky, and Elijah was merely taken up into the sky and disappeared from sight. This explains why he was able to mail a letter to the king of Judah some number of years after his disappearance. I consider it very plausible that Elijah was taken away to some other part of the earth, hidden away by God, to live the remainder of his life.

(Hence, "no man has ascended to heaven".)

Well said. Also Isaiah says,


Isaiah 26:19-21 ( KJV )
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

[livingwaters]

Enoch and Elija both walked with God...that's where they went!!! Says so in scripture, I was just too lazy to quote it. I think they were the only two who were just "taken up" to be with God.

[Athanasius]

Sheol (Hebrew) or hades (Greek). There was no distinction between righteous and wicked here (as far as we can discern outside of that parable)

Earliest absolutely verified example in Scripture: Samuel the prophet. (1 Samuel 28) He had died, and when Saul had the witch of Endor call his spirit, it came "up" from the ground. Heaven certainly is never described as being in the earth, but sheol/hades consistently is described as being the "abode of the dead" in the earth. Samuel could be considered a "righteous" individual, yet he specifically states that the wicked Saul and his sons would join him (verbatim: "you and your sons shall be with me") when they died. (1 Samuel 28.19)

Some claim this was a "familiar spirit" (i.e., a demon) mocking Saul, but there is absolutely no evidence in the text that this individual was anyone other than the actual prophet Samuel. Moreover, if someone claims this is a demon and not the actual Samuel, they run into the problem of his prophecies coming true about Saul's and his sons' deaths. (Besides, the instance of this event isn't entirely without merit: it is almost foreshadowed in 1 Samuel 2.6, when Samuel's mother Hannah describes God as "he brings down to sheol and he raises up." It very well could have been God who allowed Samuel's spirit to be called upon.)

Psalm 16.10 seems to also show that it is the person's spirit or soul that goes to sheol. Psalm 30.3. Psalm 49.15. Psalm 86.13. Psalm 89.48. At the throne judgment in Revelation 20, the dead are "emptied" from hades. Note that the Revelation does not say only the wicked are in hades.

In the case of Enoch. Scripture never says he was taken to heaven. (Well, the New Living Translation does; but the original Hebrew and Greek never says so. This is why the NLT is on my "not to use" list.) Hebrews 11 includes Enoch in the list of people who died in faith. However it was that Enoch was "taken so that he should not see death", he is still included in the list of people who died in faith. If Enoch never actually died, the author of Hebrews could simply have not used him as one of his many examples.

In the case of Elijah. Yes, he was seen taken up to "heaven". But one should know that the word "heaven" could refer to simply the sky, and Elijah was merely taken up into the sky and disappeared from sight. This explains why he was able to mail a letter to the king of Judah some number of years after his disappearance. I consider it very plausible that Elijah was taken away to some other part of the earth, hidden away by God, to live the remainder of his life.

(Hence, "no man has ascended to heaven".)

I had always heard it said the 'no man ascended to heaven' referred to any man ascending to Heaven of his own power. Anyway, that's a different topic. I like this answer, seems to me there are different 'sides' to Sheol (to build off the above), however with all of that said. Thanks!

[Diggindeeper]

So, simple question: where did believers who died go before Christ? Enoch and Elijah, for example... Also would appreciate substantiation for the view you hold outside of the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

I fully believe these saints of old have already been resurrected. For example, consider the Mount of Transfiguration story:

Matthew 17:1-3
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


Also, how else would you explain this, if they were not already with him?

Matthew 27:51-53
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

[markedward]

I had always heard it said the 'no man ascended to heaven' referred to any man ascending to Heaven of his own power. Anyway, that's a different topic.

Well, it's a relevant topic to this discussion. If someone can say that "no man has ascended to heaven" means "no man has ascended to heaven by his own power", it justifiably alters the situation of people like Enoch and Elijah having been taken to (the) heaven.

This might seem like a legit explanation... but since the word itself doesn't (etymologically) mean that, and I can't find anything else in Scripture to support the assertion that "ascended" really means "ascended by one's own power". The Greek word is used for mundane activities such as "going" or "coming". There simply is no definitive context for the word to be interpreted as meaning "to ascend by one's own power"... so... I find the alleged explanation to be really un-evidenced.

So while it is a relevant topic, I think the claim itself is really unfounded.

[markedward]

I fully believe these saints of old have already been resurrected. For example, consider the Mount of Transfiguration story:

How would this flow with the Hymenaeus heresy? That is, by about 60 AD or so, certain fellows named Hymenaeus and Philetus were claiming the resurrection had already taken place. Paul says Hymenaeus and Philetus were in error. So how could Moses and Elijah (and other "OT saints") have been resurrected if Paul said the resurrection had not yet happened? (2 Timothy 2.17-18)

Also, how else would you explain this, if they were not already with him?

It is highly likely these peoples' resurrections were merely physical resurrections, along the lines of Lazarus (John 11). Not the resurrection spoken of in Daniel 12 and the epistles and the Revelation.

[Athanasius]

I fully believe these saints of old have already been resurrected. For example, consider the Mount of Transfiguration story:

Matthew 17:1-3
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


Also, how else would you explain this, if they were not already with him?

Matthew 27:51-53
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Well as I understand it when Jesus was crucified He went to Sheol (Abrahams Bossom) and brought those believers from Paradise into the presence of the Father. I don't believe they were physically resurrected, however.

Well, it's a relevant topic to this discussion. If someone can say that "no man has ascended to heaven" means "no man has ascended to heaven by his own power", it justifiably alters the situation of people like Enoch and Elijah having been taken to (the) heaven.

This might seem like a legit explanation... but since the word itself doesn't (etymologically) mean that, and I can't find anything else in Scripture to support the assertion that "ascended" really means "ascended by one's own power". The Greek word is used for mundane activities such as "going" or "coming". There simply is no definitive context for the word to be interpreted as meaning "to ascend by one's own power"... so... I find the alleged explanation to be really un-evidenced.

So while it is a relevant topic, I think the claim itself is really unfounded.

Which, I would agree.

[Diggindeeper]

Well as I understand it when Jesus was crucified He went to Sheol (Abrahams Bossom) and brought those believers from Paradise into the presence of the Father. I don't believe they were physically resurrected, however.



Which, I would agree.

Then please explain these verses...(from my post, and quoted in your post above)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

If, IF, they were not resurrected physically, how did the "many" see them?
And KNOW they were risen saints...saints of old? They came out of their graves..They went into the holy city. They APPEARED to people.

The Bible says the BODIES of the saints arose...their bodies....
But we never hear anything farther said of any of them.

[Athanasius]

Then please explain these verses...(from my post, and quoted in your post above)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

If, IF, they were not resurrected physically, how did the "many" see them?
And KNOW they were risen saints...saints of old? They came out of their graves..They went into the holy city. They APPEARED to people.

The Bible says the BODIES of the saints arose...their bodies....
But we never hear anything farther said of any of them.

Well, Matthew 17 is before Christs crucifixion and the verses you're quoting above after, correct? So are you saying, then, that the physical resurrection of the Old Testament saints had happened already, prior to Christs crucifixion? Furthermore, that there was some sort of second resurrection after His crucifixion?

I'll have to look into it further and get back to you. However, while I'm buying myself time could you help me with those questions?

[Diggindeeper]

I believe it ties perfectly with what Jesus said here: (Before he was resurrected.)

John 7:23-26
23 Jesus saith unto her, (Martha) Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

To me, it connects perfectly (like puzzle pieces).
He IS the resurrection, and life.

Then there is this:
1 Corinthians 15: 12-20

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

[Athanasius]

I believe it ties perfectly with what Jesus said here: (Before he was resurrected.)

John 7:23-26
23 Jesus saith unto her, (Martha) Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

To me, it connects perfectly (like puzzle pieces).
He IS the resurrection, and life.

Then there is this:
1 Corinthians 15: 12-20

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Okay, but where I'm getting confused is your appeal to Matthew 17 which is before his crucifixion. Are you saying He (physically) raised Moses and Elijah independently of his crucifixion? Are you also saying there are two (physical) resurrections? One of the Old Testament saints, which from what I can tell you're describing two separate instances and one again of the post-Old Testament saints? I'm under the impression that there is only one physical resurrection of the dead which will take place at the white thrown judgment.

[Walstib]

So, simple question: where did believers who died go before Christ? Enoch and Elijah, for example... Also would appreciate substantiation for the view you hold outside of the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

What part of them? It sure is not simple for me....

Meaning it is hard for me to answer still working out body,soul and spirit.

So far in my studies, we have the physical body returning to "dust" and the spirit returning to God. The soul departing the body upon death of the flesh.

It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. (Gen 35:18 NASB)

Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecc 12:6-7 NASB)

So is the soul and the spirit the same here? Right now I don't figure it is. Now it does seem like Sheol is the place where all souls go upon the death of the flesh like in this passage.

So Jacob tore his clothes, and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days. Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, "Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son." So his father wept for him. (Gen 37:34-35 NASB)

But when I read all these passages and more I get a sense there is a rescue from Sheol as it is a place for the wicked.

But man in his pomp will not endure; He is like the beasts that perish. This is the way of those who are foolish, And of those after them who approve their words. Selah. As sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; And the upright shall rule over them in the morning, And their form shall be for Sheol to consume So that they have no habitation. But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah. (Psa 49:12-15 NASB)

"Drought and heat consume the snow waters, So does Sheol those who have sinned. (Job 24:19 NASB)

He keeps back his soul from the pit, And his life from passing over into Sheol. "Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, And with unceasing complaint in his bones; So that his life loathes bread, And his soul favorite food. "His flesh wastes away from sight, And his bones which were not seen stick out. "Then his soul draws near to the pit, And his life to those who bring death. "If there is an angel as mediator for him, One out of a thousand, To remind a man what is right for him, Then let him be gracious to him, and say, 'Deliver him from going down to the pit, I have found a ransom'; Let his flesh become fresher than in youth, Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor; Then he will pray to God, and He will accept him, That he may see His face with joy, And He may restore His righteousness to man. (Job 33:18-26 NASB)

For my soul has had enough troubles, And my life has drawn near to Sheol. I am reckoned among those who go down to the pit; I have become like a man without strength, Forsaken among the dead, Like the slain who lie in the grave, Whom You remember no more, And they are cut off from Your hand. (Psa 88:3-5 NASB)

So is this rescue at the cross in time, with heaven and Sheol following the same time-line or was there an ongoing redemption? I consider this passage and tend to think ongoing would be the way. With a change at the cross (or ascension to the heavenly temple may a be better time) of place still. Paradise or Abraham's bosom being different than Sheol.

This one is a big one I think for this concept.

The path of life leads upward for the wise That he may keep away from Sheol below. (Pro 15:24 NASB)

Granted these are still things I am asking myself. I do also consider this when thinking about the lack of evidence in the OT for the destination of the righteous.

Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. (Col 1:25-27 NASB)

With all that I am still trying to figure out what a spiritual body is and when on has it....

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1Co 15:42-45 NASB)

Thanks for getting me thinking.