Evil

[Equipped_4_Love]

I'll pose a simple question to get this discussion started (I swear, it does have a point). If this is a stupid question, please disregard it, but I would be curious to get some viewpoints:

Can evil exist without anyone to practice it?!

The reason I ask is this -- We all know that good existed eternally with God, as God is eternal, and that is His nature.

As far as evil is concerned, though -- did it exist prior to Satan's fall, or did the fall of Satan produce evil? Before Satan and the hosts of heaven were created, God existed alone. As no evil exists within God, and there was nothing but God, it seems logical to say that, before Lucifer was created, there was not even any possibility of evil, because the only thing that existed was God, and in Him is no evil.

So, then, how did evil come about? We live in a dualistic reality, where the existence of one thing qualifies the existence of another -- light and darkness, love and hate, good and evil, etc.

Free will assumes that there are at least 2 different options from which to choose. Satan chose to rebel, which means that evil must have existed, or at least had the potential to exist, with God, even before the angels were created. I just have a really hard time grasping this, though, because God is completely good, and if He were to exist alone, I don't even see how the possibility of evil would exist.

Seeing as how He is God, wouldn't the very nature of His existence define the reality in which He existed? If no evil exists in Him, how could evil even be a possibility -- but it must have been, since Lucifer had a choice.

Am I even making sense? We know that Satan's rebellion produced evil -- but was evil even a reality before God created the angels?

[NotMyOwn]

Well to me evil is that which opposes or takes the place of God. So evil had to come when satan pridefully thought he was equal with God. So satans fall would be the start of evil.

[Equipped_4_Love]

Well to me evil is that which opposes or takes the place of God. So evil had to come when satan pridefully thought he was equal with God. So satans fall would be the start of evil.

Yes, but Satan had a choice, and he chose to do the evil thing. If evil did not exist, how could he have been called a free moral agent? How could he have had a choice.

There is a verse that says when Adam and Eve rebelled, that they brought sin into the world. That indicates that, in some form, sin was already in existence.

Just like with Adam and Eve -- they were free moral agents, because they had the choice. True, their choice was more tangible and physical than Satan's -- Satan's choice was a result of his pride. Satan chose to do that which was evil, thus bringing evil into the world.

This says to me that there must have been at least the potential for evil, even before Satan rebelled. God did not create evil with Satan -- He merely created Satan with the ability to choose.

So, then, I guess what I am asking is -- what was the state of evil before Satan existed? Did it exist at all? And if not, how could Satan have had a choice? Was it something that just had the potential to exist, and Satan's rebellion brought it into existence?

How can evil even have the potential to exist in a reality comprised of complete and total good?

[BroRog]

I'll pose a simple question to get this discussion started (I swear, it does have a point). If this is a stupid question, please disregard it, but I would be curious to get some viewpoints:

Can evil exist without anyone to practice it?!

The reason I ask is this -- We all know that good existed eternally with God, as God is eternal, and that is His nature.

As far as evil is concerned, though -- did it exist prior to Satan's fall, or did the fall of Satan produce evil? Before Satan and the hosts of heaven were created, God existed alone. As no evil exists within God, and there was nothing but God, it seems logical to say that, before Lucifer was created, there was not even any possibility of evil, because the only thing that existed was God, and in Him is no evil.

So, then, how did evil come about? We live in a dualistic reality, where the existence of one thing qualifies the existence of another -- light and darkness, love and hate, good and evil, etc.

Free will assumes that there are at least 2 different options from which to choose. Satan chose to rebel, which means that evil must have existed, or at least had the potential to exist, with God, even before the angels were created. I just have a really hard time grasping this, though, because God is completely good, and if He were to exist alone, I don't even see how the possibility of evil would exist.

Seeing as how He is God, wouldn't the very nature of His existence define the reality in which He existed? If no evil exists in Him, how could evil even be a possibility -- but it must have been, since Lucifer had a choice.

Am I even making sense? We know that Satan's rebellion produced evil -- but was evil even a reality before God created the angels?

As I understand it, evil isn't a thing per se; rather evil is the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light. And so, evil didn't exist until God created sinners.

[Equipped_4_Love]

As I understand it, evil isn't a thing per se; rather evil is the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light. And so, evil didn't exist until God created sinners.

But God didn't create sinners -- God created perfect human beings who had the potential to sin -- just like when God created Lucifer as a glorious, magnificent, perfect angel. When mankind rebelled, he ushered evil into the world -- an evil that was already in existence due to Satan's rebellion.

So, then, when Satan rebelled, did he usher in evil, or was purely a creation of his rebellion? If it was purely a creation of his rebellion, then where does the issue of choice come in?

Was there no evil before Satan rebelled, or was there the choice between evil and good?

That's where my original question comes back in -- can evil exist without anyone to practice it? If God had never created anything, would evil have even existed in concept?

[matthew7and1]

If God had never created anything, would evil have even existed in concept?

This statement grabs me in particular. Maybe evil is an option that came to exist as a result of the creations that God made. If there is only God, there is only good. What God made was good, however, when he created it he gave a choice: be in the presence of me (good) or not (evil). The very first choice to be away for God's presence was the first act of evil.

So- before anything was created there was nothing and no one to be out of God's presence, therefore there was nothing to be able to choose evil for evil to even be an option....

[BroRog]

But God didn't create sinners -- God created perfect human beings who had the potential to sin -- just like when God created Lucifer as a glorious, magnificent, perfect angel.

I don't believe God created perfect human beings. Given the opportunity, Adam and Eve disobeyed God. This is evidence that they were not perfect. One could argue that they were innocent human beings until they sinned, but the fact they sinned proved they weren't "perfect."

When mankind rebelled, he ushered evil into the world -- an evil that was already in existence due to Satan's rebellion.

Evil doesn't have an existence of it's own. Evil is simply the term we use to indicate when someone has violated the created order or some standard of morality. Evil is simply morally objectionable behavior and that without actions performed by a moral agent, evil does not exist.

So, then, when Satan rebelled, did he usher in evil, or was purely a creation of his rebellion? If it was purely a creation of his rebellion, then where does the issue of choice come in? Was there no evil before Satan rebelled, or was there the choice between evil and good?

This is a chicken and egg question. Did evil exist before Satan rebelled or was evil born the day Satan rebelled?

In order to answer this question we must first understand why people make the choices they do. In another thread, we were having a discussion about free will. And in that discussion I added that in order for free will choices to be meaningfully a man's choice, each choice must reflect his own personal preferences, wishes, dreams, loves, fears, etc. That is, his choices must reflect him in a meaningful way; they must follow from his own personality and find their cause in him rather than, say the laws of nature. Somehow, a meaningful choice is a choice that belongs distinctly to him as his own. Each choice is a form of self expression; and to whatever degree anything makes us a unique individual our voluntary, unconstrained choices help define our identity.

And so, I believe, that both Satan and Adam made evil choices because rebellion was their preference; rebellion defined them as individuals; rebellion was already present within them such that when given the ability and opportunity to choose one's own actions, Satan and Adam gave free expression to who they are through their choices.

That's where my original question comes back in -- can evil exist without anyone to practice it? If God had never created anything, would evil have even existed in concept?

I believe the answer is no.

[Vhayes]

Hi Welder -

My immediate reaction (so there's no scripture to back it up which I don't like doing) is this:
Satan was an angel of light; a powerful archangel. He fell because of pride. I think in the eons since, his pride evolved into an ever more hate-filled and evil thing and will continue to grow till the end. Evil will increase because Satan will become more and more obsessed with being "God."

I think the same thing happens to we humans but on a much smaller scale. Pride is almost always at the root of all of our sins, or at least that's been the case throughout my life.

Hope I didn't confuse things even more
V

[Equipped_4_Love]

I don't believe God created perfect human beings. Given the opportunity, Adam and Eve disobeyed God. This is evidence that they were not perfect. One could argue that they were innocent human beings until they sinned, but the fact they sinned proved they weren't "perfect."

Okay -- I see your point. So, then, anything with free moral choice, apart from God, is bound to be imperfect....even if created by Him. Even so, the fact that they were innocent implies the fact that there was something that they were innocent of.....they were innocent of evil. I really don't think they had any idea about what it was.....which is why I think that when Satan talked to Eve through the serpent, it didn't seem suspicious to her.
Perhaps she found it unusual, but she had no suspicions that it was anything evil, or to be feared, because she was innocent to the whole concept of evil.

Evil doesn't have an existence of it's own. Evil is simply the term we use to indicate when someone has violated the created order or some standard of morality. Evil is simply morally objectionable behavior and that without actions performed by a moral agent, evil does not exist.

Thank you for answering my original question. So, then, is it safe to assume that when God created Satan and the angels, that he also created the potential for evil, without actually creating evil itself? Where was this potential before -- did it even exist?!

I guess you could liken it to this example -- that when you create a car or a computer or anything else, that you create it with the potential to break down, but you don't create it with that specific purpose in mind (unless, of course, you are unscrupulous, but that's a whole different subject). The reason for this is because nothing can be created completely perfect -- there is always going to be some sort of underlying imperfection.

So, then, I guess what I'm getting at is this -- Before Satan, evil did not exist in any way, shape, or form, because the only thing that existed was God, who is completely good. Even so, God knew of evil, but because He is, and has always been, completely good, it never existed, because it was contrary to His nature, and He didn't practice it.

Evil is anything that is contrary to the nature and will of God, and it only exists as someone else exists to behave in a way that is contrary to God and His nature.

This is a chicken and egg question. Did evil exist before Satan rebelled or was evil born the day Satan rebelled?

In order to answer this question we must first understand why people make the choices they do. In another thread, we were having a discussion about free will. And in that discussion I added that in order for free will choices to be meaningfully a man's choice, each choice must reflect his own personal preferences, wishes, dreams, loves, fears, etc. That is, his choices must reflect him in a meaningful way; they must follow from his own personality and find their cause in him rather than, say the laws of nature. Somehow, a meaningful choice is a choice that belongs distinctly to him as his own. Each choice is a form of self expression; and to whatever degree anything makes us a unique individual our voluntary, unconstrained choices help define our identity.

And so, I believe, that both Satan and Adam made evil choices because rebellion was their preference; rebellion defined them as individuals; rebellion was already present within them such that when given the ability and opportunity to choose one's own actions, Satan and Adam gave free expression to who they are through their choices.

Yes -- but rebellion is evil because it is the defiance of God and His will, which is completely good and righteous. Rebellion is evil because it is an action that is contrary to the perfect, righteous, and good will of God. So, then, anything apart from the goodness of God is evil, because everything that is good is of God.

[Athanasius]

Can evil exist without anyone to practice it?!

No, I don't believe so.

[PrayerTower]

Hi WelderforChrist,
" can evil exist without anyone to practice it? If God had never created anything, would evil have even existed in concept?"
Great thread - interesting question...

Gen:1v27 says that God made man in his image[likeness].
If God being perfect, made man in his image,then it makes sense that his creation was perfect also. [Until they disobeyed a direct command].

Kjv Gen:1v1-2 says: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the waters...

Did God create the darkness or was it already there?
Isaiah:45v7 says: I form light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I the Lord, do all these things.

I believe that evil can exist without anyone to practice it and no evil would not have existed if God did not exist.

Blessings!!!

[apothanein kerdos]

If evil is a substance, that is, if it can exist without anyone practicing it, then it is created. Considering only God holds the ability to create ex nihilo, this would mean that God created evil. The problem is that God is good, thus when He creates He projects His goodness onto His creation (this is the meaning of "...and it was good" in Genesis). Since there is no good in evil, there is no way God could create it. So we end up with multiple problems.

Rather, evil is the lack of good, caused by the actions of a free will agent. Thus, men don't create evil, we pervert good, which is what we call evil. When we refer to evil, we are really referring to perverted good.

The only analogies I can think of are quite graphic, so I'll refrain from using them. Suffice it to say, when we look at evil for what it is we see that we are truly disgusting creatures. We take the good and pervert it for our own use.

Now, if God didn't exist then there would be no evil because there would be no good. Goodness comes from God, thus the antecedent of goodness (evil) is contingent upon the existence of goodness. If God doesn't exist, there is no goodness, thus there is no evil.

Evil can only come about when free will agents who aren't God exist. Such a condition doesn't promise evil will come about, but rather allows for the possibility.

[PrayerTower]

Hi Apothanein kerdos,
"men don't create evil, we pervert good, which is what we call evil."
If that be the case, then we must go back to the two trees in the garden.
The tree of life and of the knowledge of good and evil.

Part of the post originally presented was:
"As far as evil is concerned, though -- did it exist prior to Satan's fall, or did the fall of Satan produce evil? Before Satan and the hosts of heaven were created, God existed alone. As no evil exists within God, and there was nothing but God, it seems logical to say that, before Lucifer was created, there was not even any possibility of evil, because the only thing that existed was God, and in Him is no evil.

So, then, how did evil come about? We live in a dualistic reality, where the existence of one thing qualifies the existence of another -- light and darkness, love and hate, good and evil, etc.

Free will assumes that there are at least 2 different options from which to choose. Satan chose to rebel, which means that evil must have existed, or at least had the potential to exist, with God, even before the angels were created. I just have a really hard time grasping this, though, because God is completely good, and if He were to exist alone, I don't even see how the possibility of evil would exist."

If Satan and his hordes fell first [through disobedience], then why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and why was the serpent there? The potential for man to fall as well would be great would'nt it?

Blessings!!!

[apothanein kerdos]

If Satan and his hordes fell first [through disobedience], then why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and why was the serpent there? The potential for man to fall as well would be great would'nt it?

It still doesn't follow that evil is a created substance. The early Christians viewed the tree quite differently than we do. They didn't see anything intrinsically wrong with the tree, but rather that we used the tree as an object for our disobedience. Multiple authors attest that God could have said, "don't cross this stream" or "don't climb this mountain," and the impact would have been the same. Adam and Eve disobeyed. The evil wasn't in the tree, it was in their disobedience.

Furthermore, none of what you pointed out shows that evil is an actual substance. For instance, I can measure light. There are particles that allow me to measure light. I can't, however, measure darkness. In fact, the "measuring" of darkness is actually contingent upon how much light is in the room, because darkness has no particle, no other property than "the absence of light."

What is "good" can be defined because God has given us a definition; that is to say, "good" has a substance to it. It can be defined independently of certain things. Evil, however, can only be defined as the opposite of what is good. It lacks a proper substance.

Thus, evil came about when we were given choice. Free will assumes there are two choices, but it doesn't mean both choices have to be a substance. I have the free will to have the light on or turn the light off. One act chooses substance while the other chooses the lack of that substance. Likewise with evil, I can choose good or I can choose to rebel.

A further implication is that if evil is a substance, not only did God create it (rendering a whole host of other problems), but it means that the evil was a cause and not a product of our choice. We chose evil because evil was within us. Rather, the free will defense (originated by Augustine) teaches that in our free will we were neutral with the choice to obey God or disobey Him. Obeying Him is a substantive act because we're moving toward Someone that exists and has His own necessary (non-contingent) properties. Evil, however, is entirely contingent on good, thus it is not a substance. So when we choose "evil," we're actually ignoring what is good. To be "evil" is to cease to pursue good.

[kenramse]

So, then, how did evil come about? We live in a dualistic reality, where the existence of one thing qualifies the existence of another -- light and darkness, love and hate, good and evil, etc.

Free will assumes that there are at least 2 different options from which to choose. Satan chose to rebel, which means that evil must have existed, or at least had the potential to exist, with God, even before the angels were created. I just have a really hard time grasping this, though, because God is completely good, and if He were to exist alone, I don't even see how the possibility of evil would exist.

Our world view needs to be Biblically grounded, so that I feel that a Christian needs to approach all things from that perspective. I think that herein lies the the confusion. You state that we live in a dualistic reality, when in fact we do notfrom a Biblical point of view. Most of the world's religions and philosophies propose dualism as a premise but it is a false premise. There are not two polar extremes in any of the examples that you presented, as there are not two polar extremes in the world. There is one absolute, whether you refer to light, love, good, or any other concept. There is no true opposite to any of these, but the absence of them.

light and darkness - These are not opposites but Light is the absolute and darkness is its absense. Since God is Light, if you face Him you will be looking at the absolute, Light. If you turn from that Light and face away from it, you will be seeing (without anything to reflect the light), darkness. That is not Light's opposite but the absence of Light.

love and hate - God is love, in the absolute, and the same positional reasoning applies. If you look to love as the absolute, looking away from love you see the absence of love, not the opposite of love.

good and evil - The same reasoning should apply. God is good, absolutely good. If one turns from good, away in the other direction or in any direction but toward Him, there is not absolute evil in the sense of a polar difference but there is the absence of good. Evil then is not the opposite of Good but its absence.

Now there may be different gradations of what we can consider evil but those gradations can only be measured by the one absolute, Good. With this as the standard by which to measure, anything less than absolute good can be considered evil. In the midst of the garden of Eden, God planted a tree of knowledge. That knowledge was described as the knowledge of good and evil.


Did God then create evil as a substance? I think not. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was a tree of the knowledge of good. That tree, I propose, provided the standard of good whereby evil could be measured, thereby providing the knowledge of what would be considered good or what would be considered evil.

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


Contemporaneous to the growth of the trees in the garden, God placed Adam in its midst to dress and keep it.

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Eve was created from Adam, not as an opposite force or a polarized extreme, but as a helpmeet, so male and female are not examples of dualism either.

So from the beginning, God was, and there is no evil in Him. But as soon as he began to speak the world(s) into existence, there was evil. Evil was not created as any particular force or entity but was in its essence, what became once there was a reference point, a place of existence besides the good in God Himself.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good?there isnone good but one,that is,God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

1Jn 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.