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Thread: How Can One Interpret Genesis as Literal?

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    How Can One Interpret Genesis as Literal?

    Let me start off by saying that I am open to arguments in favor of a literal interpretation of Genesis. I am still trying to figure out how I feel about many different interpretations and views of Biblical events, lessons, and prophecy, so I am not here to attack the literal view. I am putting forth my honest evaluation of the Creation story with the hope that those who follow a literal understanding may convince me otherwise
    ========================================

    I've re-read and re-read and re-read the creation story, and there is one MAJOR aspect of it that bothers me.

    Let's throw out the major debates about evolution vs. creationism, young vs. old earth, and whether each day is a 24 hour day or an indefinite amount of time.

    My question deals with the expanse and the 2 separate bodies of water

    Gen 1:6-8: And God Said," Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water. So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky"...

    So we have a body of water either at the top of the atmosphere or outside the atmosphere of the earth.

    Ok, but here is where it gets even more confusing:

    Gen 1:14-17: And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth. And it was so. God made two great lights - the greater light (sun) and the lesser light (moon) to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth...

    So according to Genesis, God placed the sun, the moon, and the stars WITHIN the expanse between the 2 separate bodies of water. This suggests one of two things: either the second body of water is outside the solar system or farther (outside the sun, moon, stars of other galaxies) or the writer(s) of Genesis believed that the sun, moon, and stars were inside the Earth's atmosphere.

    I side with the latter argument because it is consistent with existing beliefs about the world in the Ancient Near East. The writer(s) of Genesis must have viewed the Earth as a flat disc with a huge dome over it where the stars, moon, and sun were either at the top of the dome or part of the top. I have a hard time believing that God would lie to us about what the world was like. I assume that He did not enlighten the writer(s) of Genesis about the true nature of the world and the universe because it was unimportant. Instead, the important message was that one all-knowing, all-powerful, loving God created each and every man and woman on the Earth. As a result, I currently am leaning towards the allegorical interpretation of the creation story

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    Yes I believe you are correct that the story is more about telling us who God is and not about the world as it actually is. In other words I agree with you last paragraph.

    Now about the cosmological understanding of the Jews. I will start for the bottom and work my way up because I believe it is easier.

    They believed:

    Very bottom: there was She'ol, the place of the dead where everyone went when they died. It was below the ground inside the earth.

    Above She'ol: there were underground rivers or waters. Those waters that in Genesis 2 that watered the land. They were under the ground above She'ol.

    Above the Water under the ground: There was the ground the land as we see it, the surface of the earth, just land and rivers, lakes, seas, oceans, trees, plants, animals.

    Above the land: Sky, which had flying animals, the Sun, the Moon, the Stars, every celestial being. They had all these here because they did not know how large the universe was. They did not know that they were light years away from the earth. They thought they were much closer.

    Above the sky: The waters above the earth. The waters that were separated from the ground. The waters you were asking about.

    Above the waters above the earth: Nothing or possibly God. It is hard to understand exactly because we know Heaven is not really up in the sky somewhere the Israelites believe about the same thing from what some biblical scholars understand. It seems that they might have believe that heaven was in the sky somewhere or that it was all around us just in a different plane of existence. That it is here just it cannot be seen with our physical eyes but sometimes the thin veil that was blown open or opened for a brief time. It was in this time that visions of heaven were seen.

    Hope that helps to understand the cosmology of the Ancient Israelites.

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    I think that parts of it are literal but parts of it are spiritual.

    Verse nine of Genesis chapter one describes the gathering of water which is a description of the formation of a planet. If it were meant to be flat why would it suggest the waters were gathered to one place? And if you invision a large expanse of water being gather together if it were possible to command it to do so what shape do you suppose it would take?

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    The best explanation I have heard, is that the earth changed after the flood. The verses about the flood (can't find the one that made me conclude this, but, here is one.)


    Gen 8:1-3

    1
    Then God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the animals that were with him in the ark. And God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters subsided. 2 The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained. 3 And the waters receded continually from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters decreased.

    The picture I've always understood as that the flood was different than the rains we get today, that in the first heaven was actually a lot more water, and perhaps even more moisture in the air than we have today.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnswer99 View Post

    So according to Genesis, God placed the sun, the moon, and the stars WITHIN the expanse between the 2 separate bodies of water. This suggests one of two things: either the second body of water is outside the solar system or farther (outside the sun, moon, stars of other galaxies) or the writer(s) of Genesis believed that the sun, moon, and stars were inside the Earth's atmosphere.
    I don't think that's necessarily what it suggests, although it might seem like that. To me it basicly says, that God placed sunlight and moonlight in the expanse of the sky. If you think solar rays as thousands of miles long continous particles. then the sun actually is within the expanse of the sky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veretax View Post
    The best explanation I have heard, is that the earth changed after the flood. The verses about the flood (can't find the one that made me conclude this, but, here is one.)
    I believe that's true.

    13I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. (Gen 9:13)

    There were no rainbows prior to the flood..

  7. #7

    Reading and wholeheartedly Believing Genesis

    Introduction


    I believe the Bible.
    I believe it is the inspired Word of God.

    I believe that Genesis -- specifically Genesis 1-11 -- is an inspired text which says just exactly what God wanted it to say, and which is an integral part of the whole biblical revelation. Specifically, it is an integral part of the whole of the book of Genesis. I think it is central, and very important theologically,

    Yet I think that very much of the message of Genesis 1-11 is independent of whether or not one thinks it should be read in the manner that folks call "literal." These passages provide important, basic theological concepts which have uniquely formed the entire Judeo-Christian tradition, and those concepts are (IMO) clear and understandable, for the most part, irrespective of what one thinks of the "literal"ness of these texts.

    This post won't be helpful to everyone -- and some, I fear, will be outraged by it, though I'm sure I don't really understand why. It aims to argue that the idea of "literal" or not "literal" is of limited usefulness in trying to understand the text of Genesis 1-11 as that text is intended to be read. There is no particular need to read it in the way folk call "literal" (or not) to fully submit our hearts and minds to the teaching this text gives us. But (whether or not we suppose that it is a record of events which could have been photographed and that if photographed would have looked like the things -- ground, serpent, fruit, tree -- that occure in the narrative) to understand and receive the full force of this teaching we must engage in careful contemplation of the symbolism of the account.

    About the word "literal"

    I must say in advance that I have never really understood the approach of reading the texts in the way that is called "literal": that is, I really don't know what people mean, or think they are doing, when they do what they call reading the texts "literal"ly. On the whole, I think that "literal" reading is mainly a re-reading of the texts which relies on the presuppositions about reality which come out of 18th and 19th century rationalism -- largely materialist rationalism -- and which is not well-aligned with what seems to me the intention of the Genesis texts and their author.

    Thus, my difficulties with readings which call themselves "literal" is in large part that I don't find them to be self-consistent readings which proceed in harmony with the intention of the Genesis text.

    The general approach of emphasizing the "literal"ness of the early Genesis texts -- and some other OT texts -- seems to be that of supposing that there is an exact history (or history and geology, or mechanics of creation, etc.) which it is the intention of the text to convey, and that the actual Genesis text -- the actual words of the Genesis text -- are merely a means to the end of presenting that exact history. What that supposed historical sequence is supposed to do for us is less clear.

    Consider Cain and His Wife for a Moment


    A useful point for illustrating what I mean is the perennial question "where did Cain get his wife?" People who ask this question often devise some kind of historical explanation -- never mentioned in Genesis -- like this:
    Adam and Eve had various sons and daughters, not just those mentioned in the text of Genesis, and God had not yet forbidden incest, so Cain married one of these. As these incestuous unions occurred, perfectly legitimately, as God had not forbidden them, the earth was populated. Thus Cain married one of his sisters, or perhaps a niece. No problem.
    For those who like such flights of fancy, they seem to solve a problem that the Genesis text presents us with. But in my view, they don't do that at all. The Genesis text -- as it seems to me -- obviously has no interest in the question of where Cain got his wife. The text does seem to be interested in lots of things: the wandering character of Cain, the deterioration of humankind among the descendants of the first human beings after their fall, the association of the fallenness of humanity, represented by Cain, with violence and conquest, and lots of other things. But it does not, in my eyes, show interest in some hypothetical (unmentioned) geneology which would provide an in-principle detailed and realistic account of where Cain's wife came from.

    I think that it is much more useful to think about what the essential points are that the Bible is making -- here, in the details it gives about Cain. The symbolism and generally meaningful portraits of humanity in its fallenness bears a lot of thinking about. That's where I think the text is meant to lead us; where it's main areas of fruitfulness lie, as means of trying to hear what God is saying to us in these early chapters of Genesis.

    More Important: Consider the Text that says
    "Adam was formed of the dust of the Adamah"

    A further and important example of this is the texts in Genesis 2, 3, and 4 which deal with "the ground" -- either literally (that is, using the letters of the word for ground) or by implication (that is, by talking about processes of gardening and cultivation, etc.).

    Before we start with "ground" though, we need to clear up "man" or "adam". There is no separate word for "man" (in the sense of humanity) in the Bible, so far as I can tell. (I am no scholar!) There are words for "human male" and "human female" -- but these are used infrequently. Mostly when the word "man" occurs in English translation, the Hebrew word is "adam". Thus in Genesis 1:26-27, where God says "let us create man in our own image" and "so God created man in his own image", and God creates humanity male and female in His image, the word used for man is "adam". Thus, the word "adam" is used, here, and elsewhere, in the sense of "humanity", and not just in the sense of the guy in the garden of Eden. Similarly at 8:21, after Noah's sacrifice, Genesis states "the Lord said in his heart, 'I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth.'" the word used for "man", that is for humanity, is "adam". Apparently the word "adam", like the word "adamah" means something reddish brown, and is derived from the word for blood, "dawm". At points in the Genesis 3 story -- as where God says "Adam, where are you?" -- the word seems to refer to an individual; at other points the reference seems broader.

    Now God, in Genesis 2:7, makes "adam" (man) from the dust of the "adamah" (ground). This is anticipated in 2:6 (where it says there were as yet no plants because these was no man -- adam -- to till the ground -- adamah), and followed up in 2:9 (with 2:6 echoed in 2:15) in 2:19, and especially in 3:17-19 and 3:23. It comes up again, arguably, in the story of Cain, at 4:10, 11, 12, 14. All these texts are dealing with the "ground" (adamah) in the context of the formation of humanity, and of the fall and its consequences.

    What Kind of Reading Brings Out
    the Meaning God Intended the Text To Have For Us?

    "What, exactly, is that all about?," one might ask! What indeed?, I would reply. These are deep, thoughtful texts, placed in a very rich and complex narrative, without a simple and single interpretation, which we are meant to ponder deeply. I have thought about them a lot, and I think they say a great deal which we might all agree on -- irrespective of what we think Genesis is or is not saying about earth's detailed geological, biological, and human history -- a great deal which is meant to teach us much about God's ways, and our brokenness and sin, and God's redemption, and so on. But there is not a single, univocal, message: more a rich theological trove which, as we read it faithfully, will instruct us very much.

    But I want to get back to how we describe this kind of encounter with the text. Emphasizing the fact that "ground" (adamah) and man or humanity (adam) are closely connected in the text (and both connected with blood, dawm) is what I think could properly be called a literal reading of Genesis 2 and 3 and 4: it's a reading that takes seriously the actual text of Genesis, and that goes so far in its seriousness as to pay attention to the letters of the text -- for instance to the fact that man (adam) and ground (adamah) are almost identical words.

    You may note that here I do not put literal in quotation marks. Why? Because here we are using this word exactly: here we mean by it a reading which is paying strict attention to the actual words of the text, and even to the letters of which the words are composed. (The word "literal" is an adjective which, originally, means "in regard to the letters" of a word.) The real point though, is not so much that we are concerned with the similar sounds and letters of "adam" and "adamah" -- though that is very important. The point is that we are interested in the text itself, the words God has given us in Genesis, not some reconstruction of what went on, which leaves the details of what Genesis actually says languishing to the side.

    In fact, we are starting to read the text of Genesis as one reads any complex writing: with attention to exactly how the author (or, if you prefer, the text itself) expresses himself, and to the words and images which are used. One does not start by assuming that the text, the narrative, is a surrogate for a set of events whose approximate shape one knows in advance, but rather starts by assuming that the text (or, if you prefer, the author) is competent to speak for itself. Then one looks at the significance of the the images, the connotations of the word, the sequence, the repetitions, any dissonances, and so on, in an attempt, a serious attempt, to understand what it is that the text, the author, is trying to convey.

    Such an attempt cannot assume, in advance of looking at the text of Scripture itself that the text must be of a particular genre: the way in which the text is to be taken, the kind of writing (genre) that it is, emerges from a careful reading of the text itself. ("Scripture interprets Scripture"!)

    Thus, the whole significance of the Garden, the tree, the name of the tree, and so on emerge from the total context of the Genesis 2-4 passage, and of the purpose of creating humanity (adam) to till the ground and (as it later appears) name the animals as God's vice-regent or deputy or steward. All the separate details work together to develop a powerful theological account of humanity's creation, purpose, relationship to God, fall, ruptured relation to God, brokenness and sin, and so on. The Genesis 2-4 account is not just a collection of historical details, but a powerful account which explains to us the basics of our origins and problems, God's purposes in making us, how we have messed these up, and -- incipiently -- where God intends to go with humanity from there. Such a reading derives not just from the context of the early chapters of Genesis, of course, but from the whole theology and narrative of the entire Bible!

    A Faithful Reading Has, IMO, Not Very Much to Do
    With Whether or Not We Understand the Text in the Way
    Which is Often Called "Literal"


    If one for some reason feels compelled to reckon that the tree, the garden, the ground, the serpent, the leaves, and so on refer to specific physical objects which were visible, and of which God could have made a movie (had He at that time had a video camera) well, no problem. It doesn't radically affect the vital, powerful and important theology which this central Biblical narrative gives to us. If one for some reason feels compelled to reckon that the tree, the garden, the ground, the serpent, the leaves, and so on were not physical objects, but are instead God's chosen way of expressing the reality of what was going on relationally and spiritually (and thus were not the kinds of things which had an existence which could have been photographed) well, no problem. That also, IMO, doesn't radically affect the vital, powerful and important theology which this central Biblical narrative gives to us.

    That doesn't mean that there are no wrong and no right ways of reading these texts. There are many reasons for supposing that the serpent is the Evil One, satan, the devil. The view that "the fall was really a fall upward into greater knowledge" is a view (which one hears occasionally) so much in conflict with what the text is obviously saying -- the text clearly views the fall as a disaster, and as resulting in huge confusion and loss, including loss of comprehension -- that I always marvel how people could come up with such a silly interpretation.

    My fundamental point, however, is that what we need is a close, faithful reading of the Genesis text, which tries to learn from its actual words and images and form, in the context of the whole of Scripture. Nothing about that particularly requires that this be a reading of the sort folk call "literal." Just as there are very silly readings by folks who think they are going beyond what the text actually says -- and they'd probably proudly call this a reading that is not what they too call "literal"), so there are some folk who suppose that they hold to what they call a "literal" reading are often, in my experience, not very interested in trying to examine the text closely to see what it may be that God is teaching us here. Some such folks give the impression that all the text is talking about is God's power to do whatever He purposes. Of course the text does say that -- regardless of whether or not you think there is a physical serpent or garden -- but there would be no point in taking a couple of chapters to say so. The chapters are there, and are written as they are written, because they are clearly conveying to us a lot of complex truths, and we need to ponder them carefully.

  8. #8
    Note: I'm well aware that the OP's specific question was about Genesis 1, not Genesis 2-4; however, it is easier as a place to start to discuss the later. Similar principles apply. I'll try to get back to discuss Genesis 1, but may not be able to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by forum lurker View Post
    I don't think that's necessarily what it suggests, although it might seem like that. To me it basicly says, that God placed sunlight and moonlight in the expanse of the sky. If you think solar rays as thousands of miles long continous particles. then the sun actually is within the expanse of the sky.
    A very interesting thought and not one that I considered

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy Kid View Post
    Note: I'm well aware that the OP's specific question was about Genesis 1, not Genesis 2-4; however, it is easier as a place to start to discuss the later. Similar principles apply. I'll try to get back to discuss Genesis 1, but may not be able to.
    Wow, you provided quite an insightful and brilliant analysis of the topic at hand (albeit, mainly focusing on Genesis 2-4). Thanks for your contribution - it has certainly given me some things to think about. I'd give you more rep but it says I gotta spread it around first

    I truly appreciate your take on the issue of how we are to understand the Bible and whether we should apply outside knowledge during our reading of the good book

  11. #11
    The most "logical" argument I have heard in favor of a non-literal Genesis, at least up to chapter five, is that the first generations of men all had ages ending in 0, 2, 5, 7. Zero (0), of course, is a "neutral" number. Seven (7) is well-known to be a symbolic number (interpreted as "perfection", usually). And two (2) and five (5) added together, of course, comprise seven (7). (There is one number ending in nine (9), yet this is seen to be two and seven added together. Likewise, alternately, numbers ending in two just as easily may be additions of seven and five...)

    So, I agree that it seems "suspicious" for the first ten generations of people to have nearly all of their ages consistently ending in just four numbers, rather than having an even distribution of all ten digits throughout.

    For the record, I consider myself a "mature earth creationist" (i.e., God created the world not much more than 10,000 years ago, but he created it "mature", just as he created mankind), yet I think the above-idea would be fairly hard to argue against, unless there was an entirely reasonable explanation for why each of these men had their ages ending in 0, 2, 5 and 7 (and one instance of nine) rather than an even distribution of each digit, 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9.

    But people should realize, "inspired" doesn't automatically mean "literal".

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    I take it literal unless it no longer makes sense. Humm. Water below and water above the expanse called sky. That may not make sense to us now, but it may have been perfect sense to those who lived before the flood. I've heard some explain that there was a dome above the earth, before the flood there was no rain until the dome of moisture collasped upon the earth at the time of the flood or something like that. Take it FWIW of course. Isn't God and His creation amazing! Gives us even more to praise Him for.
    It's a good question. But just because one aspect of the creation doesn't make sense does that mean we throw the whole passage out as non-literal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by My heart's Desire View Post
    I've heard some explain that there was a dome above the earth, before the flood there was no rain until the dome of moisture collasped upon the earth at the time of the flood or something like that.
    Speculations like this are unprovable, so I guess we just need to accept the more important fact that God created us and all things

    But just because one aspect of the creation doesn't make sense does that mean we throw the whole passage out as non-literal?
    I focused on this particular passage because (in my view) it blatantly contradicts what we now know about the earth and the universe. I wonder why God's word could have a flawed view of reality. Either God does not consider an understanding of the universe to be important (not literal) or the world was different in the past (literal)

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    Quote Originally Posted by My heart's Desire View Post
    I take it literal unless it no longer makes sense. Humm. Water below and water above the expanse called sky. That may not make sense to us now, but it may have been perfect sense to those who lived before the flood. I've heard some explain that there was a dome above the earth, before the flood there was no rain until the dome of moisture collasped upon the earth at the time of the flood or something like that. Take it FWIW of course. Isn't God and His creation amazing! Gives us even more to praise Him for.
    It's a good question. But just because one aspect of the creation doesn't make sense does that mean we throw the whole passage out as non-literal?
    Amen. Just because we don't understand it or it seems to contradict what we think we know doesn't mean that we're right and the Bible is wrong:

    "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
    Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." (Proverbs 3:5-7)


    And I believe the Bible is truth, as Jesus Christ said:

    "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17)

    His word IS truth.
    If the Book be not infallible, where shall we find infallibility? ... Are these correctors of Scriptures infallible? Is it certain that our Bibles are not right, but that the critics must be so? ... We shall gradually be so bedoubted and be criticized that only a few of the most profound will know what is Bible and what is not, and they will dictate to the rest of us. I have no more faith in their mercy than in their accuracy... and we are fully assured that our old English version of the Scriptures is sufficient for plain men for all purposes of life, salvation, and goodness. - C.H.Spurgeon

  15. #15
    Blessings on you TheAnswer99!

    The Bible is, IMO, not written to give us all the misc. info we might want about things -- even about spiritual matters -- but to give us vital truth which we need and are largely unable to find out about for ourselves. All the more, it is not written, IMO, to give us details of geology, or the design of the planet. In the first place, we can find those things out for ourselves. In the second place, these are relatively unimportant matters: what the Bible is telling us about (IMO) are fundamental matters of who God is, who we are, what God's purposes for Creation and humankind are, and so on.

    In telling us things of this sort, the Bible uses, in many places, figurative language of various sorts -- in Psalms like 19, in Jesus's discourses (both parables and things that aren't really classed as parables, in the language of Job, in the language of the prophets, and so on. This use of figurative language is not primarily for the sake of aesthetic beauty and rhetorical emphasis, IMO, although it does serve those purposes, and likewise not primarily to make the words memorable, though it does that also.

    It's there to give these words the exact focus and correct perspective that God wants us to have. However, that perspective and focus cannot, in many cases, be boiled down to some easy-to-digest paraphrase or image in other terms. Both spiritual realities, and the processes of God making the world from nothing are far, far beyond our comprehension; and God gives us language concerning these things that helps us grasp to some degree what was going on, not language that is meant to be like an architect's blueprints. The metaphorical, and often complex and ambiguous imagery of Scripture is not a bug, it's a feature. To try to read this language as if it were a precise description of a mechanical process or as if it were essentially geographical or historical account, is not to "take it literally", IMO, but to read what is plainly metaphorical and figurative language as something that it was, I think, never intended to be.

    The result, IMO, is often not greater understanding of what God is telling us, with unbelievable delicacy and perfection of expression, in these texts, but to veer away from where the texts are leading us, and toward a set of puzzles about how the text relates to the physical features of the world which was never the interest or intent of the original writers. We might as well try to reconcile "all the trees of the fields will clap their hands" with the physiology of trees and human bodies.

    The Genesis accounts, Genesis 1 as well as 2-4, right on through the Babel narrative, are absolutely incredible documents, carefully crafted to teach us exactly as God wishes to teach us. But I think there isn't any reason for presupposing, before we look at the texts, that what they are trying to give us is history in the manner of a modern historian, or of the annals of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles. I think that they are much more similar to the kinds of accounts given by John 1, and Col. 1, and elsewhere in the NT. They are symbolic or figurative accounts, trying to form our hearts and minds to understand vital and basic truths about God, the universe, and ourselves -- and about God's purposes in creating and redeeming us. They aren't, IMO, meant in the same way that a geology or history text is meant.

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