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Thread: The Significance That JESUS CHRIST be Virgin-Born...

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    The Significance That JESUS CHRIST be Virgin-Born...

    . . .was so that HE would come into this world Totally and Absolutely Sinless!

    What say you?

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    I agree...

    and Jesus said something just before He went to the Cross.. right after Judas had left the supper... and He was speaking to His Diciples.. and telling them 'now' the Son of Man shall be Glorified... not by this worlds standard.. but by going to the Cross and defeating the one who had the power of death.. that is Satan.. Jesus was telling them that He was 'going away' .. and from henceforth would not speak with them much.... then......

    Jesus told His Diciples...

    the prince of this world cometh... he has nothing in me...

    Judas had left the supper to do what Satan had put into his heart and he entered Judas.. possessing him...

    Jesus was 'spotless'.. without blemish.. sinless... Satan had nothing 'in Him'.. nor on Him.. as far as Accusation.. for He walked 33years + and never sinned... wow... and the only way He could do that .. is that He was Truly God manifest in the flesh!

    Paul exhorts in the NT.. telling believers that God condemned sin the 'likeness of sinful flesh' by nailing His Own Son.. who put on flesh.. but was Pure.. without sin... and nailing Him to that bloody tree.. as the Perfect Passover Lamb...that thru Him man may Passover from spiritual darkness to the True Light.. that Eternal LIght.. who Is Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh...

    He was concieved by the Holy Ghost.. Incorruptible Seed....and not man's seed.... which has been corrupted since Adam and Eve...



    and the Light shineth in a very dark.. place....... and the darkness did not comprehend it..
    Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
    ------------------------------------------------
    The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
    Jeremiah 31:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by theBelovedDisciple View Post
    I agree...

    and Jesus said something just before He went to the Cross.. right after Judas had left the supper... and He was speaking to His Diciples.. and telling them 'now' the Son of Man shall be Glorified... not by this worlds standard.. but by going to the Cross and defeating the one who had the power of death.. that is Satan.. Jesus was telling them that He was 'going away' .. and from henceforth would not speak with them much.... then......

    Jesus told His Diciples...

    the prince of this world cometh... he has nothing in me...

    Judas had left the supper to do what Satan had put into his heart and he entered Judas.. possessing him...

    Jesus was 'spotless'.. without blemish.. sinless... Satan had nothing 'in Him'.. nor on Him.. as far as Accusation.. for He walked 33years + and never sinned... wow... and the only way He could do that .. is that He was Truly God manifest in the flesh!

    Paul exhorts in the NT.. telling believers that God condemned sin the 'likeness of sinful flesh' by nailing His Own Son.. who put on flesh.. but was Pure.. without sin... and nailing Him to that bloody tree.. as the Perfect Passover Lamb...that thru Him man may Passover from spiritual darkness to the True Light.. that Eternal LIght.. who Is Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh...

    He was concieved by the Holy Ghost.. Incorruptible Seed....and not man's seed.... which has been corrupted since Adam and Eve...



    and the Light shineth in a very dark.. place....... and the darkness did not comprehend it..
    and! And it was because of the Virgin Birth that JESUS CHRIST had no [so-called] "Sin Nature".

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    Quote Originally Posted by THOM View Post
    . . .was so that HE would come into this world Totally and Absolutely Sinless!

    What say you?
    Suppose Jesus WASN'T born to a virgin. How would that make him a sinner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Suppose Jesus WASN'T born to a virgin. How would that make him a sinner?
    Gods word says we are shapen in iniquity......

  6. #6

    Jesus is in very nature God, the only Son of God

    Hi THOM!
    I think we've not yet met. Welcome to Bibleforums!!
    It's great to have you here!!!

    And thanks for this thread! It is very important for us to think about, to ponder, the significance of the events in the Bible, and above all to ponder the significance and meaning of the life of our Lord Jesus, and of the events in His life!!

    That Jesus was "Totally and Absolutely Sinless!" is clear: Jesus was without sin. On this all Christians agree.

    That the significance -- the prime significance -- of Christ's birth from a virgin is that particular truth is much less clear.

    Was Sinlessness, though Necessary
    A Sufficient Criterion for One Who Was to Be
    The Savior? No, for Several Reasons

    Moreover, while it is important that Jesus was sinless, that, in itself, is not a sufficient condition for His being the Savior of the world. Adam and Eve before the fall were sinless. The (unfallen) angels are sinless. Could these have borne our sins? If God had created another man or woman, like Adam and Eve but unfallen, could that man have borne our sins? Certainly not.

    Why not? For one thing, because to stand in our place, the Savior had to be a man like us -- so an angel would not have been able to stand in our place. Second because it was, probably, a requirement, and certainly fitting, that a member of Adam's race -- a human being part of our kinship and lineage, a descendent of Adam -- should be the one to bear the sins of Adam, the sins of humanity. Jesus -- as descended from Adam, and part of our kinship, a member of the human race and also, in that sense, linked to our fall -- was appropriate and able to be one to take our sins for that reason.

    (Of course, such an one had to be sinless.)

    (Jesus was also descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and from David in fulfillment of God's promise and covenants and in fulfillment of the Scriptures.)

    But more importantly, the blood, the dying, the voluntary self-sacrifice, of a sinless man or woman like Adam or Eve, or of an angel, even the greatest, would not have been sufficient to overcome our sins. Why would a mere sinless human being ("superseth", or "superenoch" or "superruth") have the power, grace, and value to outweigh and overcome the sins even of one other person, let alone the sins of thousands, millions, billions, and -- this also is important -- the fallenness of our race, our species, our kinship as a whole?

    Jesus was something far greater than just a sinless human being: Jesus was the eternal Word, and Son of God, the One Who was in the beginning with God the Father (and the Holy Spirit), one God. Jesus was Himself, personally, God. This is something that is surpassingly greater than simply being a sinless being, whether man or angel. Acknowledging Christ as God, and ruler of all -- as well acknowledging Him as Savior -- is what is at the center of the Christ faith. For that is what He is:
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him all things were created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
    (Col. 1:15-17)

    What is the significance of the Virgin Birth?

    However, what I've just said -- about Jesus's being God, the Eternal Word, God the Son -- does not, in itself, mean that that is the significance of the Virgin Birth. For instance Jesus raised a couple of people from the dead -- but then, Elijah also raised someone from the dead, and so did Paul. That Jesus raised the dead does not, in itself, show that He was sinless (Elijah was not, Paul was not), nor that he was the Son of God, and much less are those necessarily the primary significance of those events. To understand the significance, we need to look carefully at the event -- in this case the Virgin birth -- and ask how Scripture presents it.

    Jesus' birth is announced to Mary, His virgin mother, with two or three main reasons for it given. He is to be called "Jesus" because "He will save His people from their sins"; also He is to be called "Immanuel", that is, God with Us. The second emphasizes that the Baby to be born is God. The first emphasizes that He is our Savior. John's gospel emphasizes particularly that Christ Jesus is God, and in doing so connects this with the Virgin Birth, by saying of His followers "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1)"

    Moreover, the very symbolism of being born without a human paternity clearly proclaims that there is a Father other than Joseph; yet Mary is a virgin. Thus, the primary significance, even apart from the words that are said about Jesus in the text, appears to me to be that His Father is God.

    That God is Christ Jesus's Father -- in a way in which God is not the father of anyone else -- that is, that Jesus is God's only Son, is central to the whole Christian faith, but also this is a key feature of Jesus's preaching. (We call God "Father" essentially because we are Jesus's adopted brothers -- as the passage just quoted from John 1 indicates.)

    Conclusion


    Thus, while (IMO) we may also say that Jesus's sinlessness certainly is a significance of the Virgin Birth, that is not the only significance of the Virgin Birth: that Birth also signifies that Jesus is the Eternal Son of God.

    Moreover (IMO) Jesus being the unique Son of God, or God the Son, is the primary significance of His being born of a Virgin. That it is primary is shown by the way it is described in Scripture, and by the very nature of the circumstance itself, I believe.

    In friendship,
    Scruffy Kid
    Last edited by Scruffy Kid; May 12th 2009 at 03:21 PM. Reason: correct spelling error, clarify a phrase

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy Kid View Post
    Hi THOM!
    I think we've not yet met. Welcome to Bibleforums!!
    It's great to have you here!!!

    And thanks for this thread! It is very important for us to think about, to ponder, the significance of the events in the Bible, and above all to ponder the significance and meaning of the life of our Lord Jesus, and of the events in His life!!
    Hey Scruffy,
    Thank you for the warm Welcome; Its really great being here. You're very welcome; and on the above (embolden), we can agree.


    That Jesus was "Totally and Absolutely Sinless!" is clear: Jesus was without sin. On this all Christians agree.

    Moreover, while it is important that Jesus was sinless, that, in itself, is not a sufficient condition for His being the Savior of the world.
    So as to not misunderstand what you're stating here, Could a sinful person be/have been "the Savior of the world"?

    Adam and Eve before the fall were sinless.
    And there was no need, then, for any "Savior of the world", right?

    The (unfallen) angels are sinless.
    And it was mankind that was messed up. . .not "The (unfallen) angels", right?
    Could these have born our sins?
    THE JUST GOD would not punish "The (unfallen) angels" for the sins of mankind.

    If God had created another man or woman, like Adam and Eve but unfallen, could that man have born our sins? Certainly not.
    Why not? Is not JESUS CHRIST referred to as "the Last Adam"?

    Why not? For one thing, because to stand in our place, the Savior had to be a man like us -- so an angel would not have been able to stand in our place.
    Agreed.

    Second because it was, probably, a requirement, and certainly fitting, that a member of Adam's race -- a human being part of our kinship and lineage, a descendent of Adam -- should be the one to bear the sins of Adam, the sins of humanity. Jesus -- as descended from Adam, and part of our kinship, a member of the human race and also, in that sense, linked to our fall -- was appropriate and able to be one to take our sins for that reason.
    With the exception of the word, "probably", we agree.

    But more importantly, the blood, the dying, the voluntary self-sacrifice, of a sinless man or woman like Adam or Eve, or of an angel, even the greatest, would not have been sufficient to overcome our sins...In friendship,
    Scruffy Kid
    JESUS CHRIST had to be TOTALLY and ABSOLUTELY Sinless because mankind was messed up. HE also had to be GOD, because ONLY GOD can Satisfy GOD.
    The virgin birth is the Only way that HE could become a Man without a [so-called] sin nature (and still be/remain GOD at the same time). . .because the sin nature is transmitted through, to all the off-springs of Adam, get this now, by the male ONLY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Suppose Jesus WASN'T born to a virgin. How would that make him a sinner?
    Great point; and to answer your question: It would have made GOD a Liar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by THOM View Post
    . . .was so that HE would come into this world Totally and Absolutely Sinless!

    What say you?
    Although Jesus was sinless, he was tempted just as we are, Jesus however unlike us did not yield to the temptations. Other than being born of a virgin he was like us.

    Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    God bless you!

    Firstfruits

  10. #10

    Clarifying what I said

    Hey THOM,
    I'm glad that you're so enthusiastic about Jesus!

    However, I think you didn't quite understand what I was saying.

    1) First point where my words may not have been clear to you. [QUOTE=THOM;2070624] That Jesus was "Totally and Absolutely Sinless!" is clear: Jesus was without sin. On this all Christians agree.
    Moreover, while it is important that Jesus was sinless, that, in itself, is not a sufficient condition for His being the Savior of the world.
    So as to not misunderstand what you're stating here, Could a sinful person be/have been "the Savior of the world"? You appear to suppose that "not a sufficient condition" means "not necessary" in my sentence here. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but that's what you seem to be saying. But "not a sufficient condition" does not mean "not necessary."

    The word "sufficient" means "enough". "Necessary" means "required."
    If A is a sufficient condition for R, then that means that A alone will bring about, or guarantee the truth of, R. If A must be true for R to be true, then A is a necessary condition for R. If two things have to happen (A and B) in order for R to come about, and if both things occurring is sufficient for R to come about, then A and B are both necessary conditions for R, but neither, by itself, without the other, is a sufficient condition.

    You ended up your post with the following statement: "... JESUS CHRIST had to be TOTALLY and ABSOLUTELY Sinless because mankind was messed up. HE also had to be GOD" (to be Savior of mankind) [The underlining I added myself.] I agree, by the way.

    In these sentences you are stating that sinlessness and being God were, both, necessary conditions for Jesus being Savior. But the first condition, by itself, that is, being sinless, does not imply that the sinless one is God. I tried to illustrate that last point (that mere sinlessness does not, itself, imply Deity, that is, does not imply being God) by noting that (unfallen) angels, and Adam and Eve before the fall, were sinless, but not God. Therefore the first condition, being sinless, by itself, is a necessary condition for the Savior, but not a sufficient condition. It was necessary, required, that the Savior be sinless, but that does not (by itself) suffice, it's not all that is required, it's not enough, because it was also required that the Savior be God, to fully overcome the offenses which were against God.

    2) Second point where my words may not have been clear to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by THOM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy
    Adam and Eve before the fall were sinless.
    And there was no need, then, for any "Savior of the world", right?
    I'm quite perplexed by what you mean. Does "then" in your sentence, mean "at that time", or "consequently". The fact that A&E were sinless before the fall does not have the consequence that a Savior was not needed later. It presumably does mean that, prior to the fall, they did not yet need to be saved. (God, however, knew, even then, that there would later be a need for a Savior.) In any case, my pointing out that A&E before the fall were sinless was not meant to comment upon the need for a Savior, but simply to illustrate the point that there could be sinless beings, including sinless human beings, who were, nonetheless, not God.

    Your original posts in this thread did not make clear whether or not you thought Jesus is indeed God. That's one reason why I posted.

    3) In addition, the thread seemed to be about the significance of the Virgin Birth.

    My central point, my main point, was that even though it is true that Jesus was sinless, the main significance, the main force, of the Biblical passages about the Virgin Birth seems to be that He was God. This, both logically, and as supported by the texts about the Virgin Birth (as best I can read them), seems to make the main significance of the Virgin birth, lie in its pointing to Christ's Divinity.

    Further, this is not just pointing to Christ's Divinity in some abstract way, but specifically to the relationship of Jesus and the Father. What most seems to be central here is that God is uniquely Christ's Father; Jesus uniquely God's Son. Although the birth narratives, and some OT passages support the reading I have just given, a crucial reason for thinking so is that Jesus made His relationship with the Father absolutely central in His teaching. No one prior to Jesus made a great point of God being Father; this is an absolutely distinctive and powerful part of Christ's teaching. It is central to Jesus' own identity, as Jesus presents that identity, to understanding God (God the Father), to understanding Jesus' central saving mission, and so on. (By contrast, the emphasis upon original sin, while there, is minor, and, IMO, is not theorized as due to one aspect of human heritage rather than another.) And this is necessarily as it should be.

    For our focus is to be on God, not on ourselves, and not on our sinfulness and corruption. Of course, our sinfulness is important, and something we must acknowledge, know about, confess, and repent of, and so on. It's important to the whole human story. But the center and context, and the beginning and end, of the whole story is God. And we know God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So Christ, and God the Father, and the relationship between them, is central to life, and to the Christian faith. The Bible does indeed focus upon our sinfulness, and upon our being saved by Christ's death and resurrection, of course. But the primary emphasis, I think, is not on the details of how we are and got messed-up, and ongoingly get messed-up, but on the saving love of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This love is expressed in the Father sending His Son to be the Savior of the World (I John 4, etc.)

    In friendship,
    Scruff
    Last edited by Scruffy Kid; May 12th 2009 at 03:19 PM. Reason: add a bit more explanation of the 3rd point

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    Quote Originally Posted by THOM View Post
    Great point; and to answer your question: It would have made GOD a Liar.
    How would that make God a liar?

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    I think Scruffy gave a great explanation! Thank you SK for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by THOM View Post
    JESUS CHRIST had to be TOTALLY and ABSOLUTELY Sinless because mankind was messed up. HE also had to be GOD, because ONLY GOD can Satisfy GOD.
    The virgin birth is the Only way that HE could become a Man without a [so-called] sin nature (and still be/remain GOD at the same time). . .because the sin nature is transmitted through, to all the off-springs of Adam, get this now, by the male ONLY.
    I am not sure where that concept that only the male passes on the sin nature came from though. Eve was the first one to take in the sin nature, and she was a female.
    ...be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are and to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. Eph. 3:16-19

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toymom View Post
    I think Scruffy gave a great explanation! Thank you SK for that.


    I am not sure where that concept that only the male passes on the sin nature came from though. Eve was the first one to take in the sin nature, and she was a female.
    The seed is carried in man.

    If the tree is bad, then the seed is bad, and the fruit is bad.
    You cannot get good fruit from a bad tree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
    The seed is carried in man.

    If the tree is bad, then the seed is bad, and the fruit is bad.
    You cannot get good fruit from a bad tree.
    Exactly good post...

    Jesus was Concieved by the Holy Ghost... not the 'male' seed ie Sperm.. which comes from the male... from a virgin male... who goes unto to 'know' his virgin wife at wedlock... but He was 'conceived' by and thru the Holy Ghost.. not the tainted seed that comes down thru Adam.. even though that person is a virgin... God had to manifest Himself in the flesh.. not with a male virgin seed.. but with the Miracle of the Conception of the Holy Ghost.... placed into a female virgin that had not 'known' another man...

    Satan had nothing 'in Him'.. nor on Him as far as Accusation.. He was sinless without 'spot' or 'blemish'.. sent to do what He was sent to do.. that was to die.. as the Lamb Slain before the foundation fo the World..so that now when He stands in the Gap before the Accuser of the Brethern and satan accuses the elect of God.. satan cannot rail on Jesus about something 'wrong He had did.. He did nothing wrong.. and He is now seated above all principalities.. whether wicked or good.. and these are made 'subject' Unto Him.. because of the Glorification He recieved after Ascending... and remember.. before 'glory'... there will be suffering and humility... pride has no place in the kingdom of Heaven.. and this is recorded in the future demise and utter removal of satan and those who folow him 'Forever'...
    Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
    ------------------------------------------------
    The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
    Jeremiah 31:3

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    Good Question Thom, without doubt had Christ been born of man's seed, he would been half God, and half man born with sin. The first Adam was born without sin but as you know became sin. The second Adam, was born also without sin and stayed that with out sin because its impossible for God to sin since he has a sinless nature. I think when we examine the two Adams that makes it all make far more sense.

    Tomlane

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