Ephesians 1;5

**SeekingGodNGa** · May 13th 2009, 01:59 AM

It says:

5He (A)predestined us to (B)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (C)according to the kind intention of His will

My question is this. If this was the case. If it was Gods 'Predestination" is this not interfearing with the "Free will" tht he has also givin us?

**Butch5** · May 13th 2009, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by SeekingGodNGa

It says:

5He (A)predestined us to (B)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (C)according to the kind intention of His will

My question is this. If this was the case. If it was Gods 'Predestination" is this not interfearing with the "Free will" tht he has also givin us?

No, in this verse Paul is speaking of himself and I believe the rest of the Jewish apostles. He may be including the Jewish believers also, not the gentiles.

**SeekingGodNGa** · May 13th 2009, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Butch5

No, in this verse Paul is speaking of himself and I believe the rest of the Jewish apostles. He may be including the Jewish believers also, not the gentiles.

So "Us" being Paul, and other apostials, not "Us" as being the whole earth population? Would that not STILL interfear with Pauls "Free Will"?

**Butch5** · May 13th 2009, 02:55 AM

[quote=SeekingGodNGa;2071431]

Originally Posted by Butch5

No, in this verse Paul is speaking of himself and I believe the rest of the Jewish apostles. He may be including the Jewish believers also, not the gentiles.[/quote

So "Us" being Paul, and other apostials, not "Us" as being the whole earth population? Would that not STILL interfear with Pauls "Free Will"?

No, the Jews as God's chosen people were predestined to the adoption, not every single Jewish person was predestined. The adoption comes through faith, so only those Jews who would believe would actually be adopted. The adoption however, was to come through the Jewish people. Paul speaks of this in Romans 9,

Romans 9:1-5 ( KJV )
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

It was God's desire that all of the Jews be adopted, however, that did not happen.

**SeekingGodNGa** · May 13th 2009, 03:09 AM

Im still confused

I just dont understand the Bible

**gophgetter** · May 13th 2009, 03:13 AM

[quote=Butch5;2071440]

Originally Posted by SeekingGodNGa

No, the Jews as God's chosen people were predestined to the adoption, not every single Jewish person was predestined. The adoption comes through faith, so only those Jews who would believe would actually be adopted. The adoption however, was to come through the Jewish people. Paul speaks of this in Romans 9,

Romans 9:1-5 ( KJV )
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

It was God's desire that all of the Jews be adopted, however, that did not happen.

What you're saying is confirmed in the 12th and 13th verse of Ephesians 1.

1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(compare with Acts 19:1-6)

The we being the Jews and the ye being the Gentiles. (Eph. 2:11-19)

**BroRog** · May 13th 2009, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by SeekingGodNGa

It says:

5He (A)predestined us to (B)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (C)according to the kind intention of His will

My question is this. If this was the case. If it was Gods 'Predestination" is this not interfearing with the "Free will" tht he has also givin us?

Both are true. God is able to preordain that we will freely choose him.

**BroRog** · May 13th 2009, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by SeekingGodNGa

Im still confused

I just dont understand the Bible

Don't give up. Ephesians the first chapter is one of the hardest chapters to understand in the Bible, due to the fact that almost the entire chapter is one huge run-on sentence and very full of theological content.

The concept of predestination is very scary to most people. But the Apostles raise the issue in order to be encouraging to us. Simply put, knowing that our ultimate outcome is in God's loving hands we are free to make mistakes along the way as we struggle to live to please him.

***crossnote*** · May 13th 2009, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by SeekingGodNGa

It says:

5He (A)predestined us to (B)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (C)according to the kind intention of His will

My question is this. If this was the case. If it was Gods 'Predestination" is this not interfearing with the "Free will" tht he has also givin us?

Predestintion is always IN and THROUGH Christ as that is where we find the New Creation.
Free will? Where in Scripture does it say fallen man's will is 'free'? Rather it says things like he is a slave to satan and his flesh and the principalities and powers of this world. Fallen man is free to choose if that is what you mean but he will always choose death apart from God's grace. God had to 'interfere' otherwise man's ruin would be total. Question, when you pray for God to do such and such for someone, aren't you asking God to intefere?

**gophgetter** · May 13th 2009, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by crossnote

Predestintion is always IN and THROUGH Christ as that is where we find the New Creation.
Free will? Where in Scripture does it say fallen man's will is 'free'? Rather it says things like he is a slave to satan and his flesh and the principalities and powers of this world. Fallen man is free to choose if that is what you mean but he will always choose death apart from God's grace. God had to 'interfere' otherwise man's ruin would be total. Question, when you pray for God to do such and such for someone, aren't you asking God to intefere?

Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

**slightlypuzzled** · May 13th 2009, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by SeekingGodNGa

It says:

5He (A)predestined us to (B)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (C)according to the kind intention of His will

My question is this. If this was the case. If it was Gods 'Predestination" is this not interfearing with the "Free will" tht he has also givin us?

God 'foreknew', he knew that we would choose to live Him, so He laid down an eternal 'career path' for those who love Him; on that puts squarely in His Son Jesus Christ....Paul appears to be saying that God set up, or predestined us, based on the love He knew we would show.
Having said that, there is also areas in which He chooses individuals from the start, as in the case of the Apostle Paul....

***ZAB*** · May 13th 2009, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by SeekingGodNGa

It says:

5He (A)predestined us to (B)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (C)according to the kind intention of His will

My question is this. If this was the case. If it was Gods 'Predestination" is this not interfearing with the "Free will" tht he has also givin us?

I believe in the predestination of the free will of man.
In other words, God is able to know in His sovereignty who will be saved without trespassing upon their free will. He can do it; He is God.

**Teke** · May 13th 2009, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by SeekingGodNGa

It says:

5He (A)predestined us to (B)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (C)according to the kind intention of His will

My question is this. If this was the case. If it was Gods 'Predestination" is this not interfearing with the "Free will" tht he has also givin us?

Hi Seeking,

Myself having just posted in the thread inquiring of CS Lewis, then reading your post, see this as related to a question that the original poster of that thread asked within that thread. The question of "adopted sons". Which is also your question from Ephesians. And this is good, in that we all should have the mind of Christ, knowing what God is about with us.

This very verse from Ephesians, using the word "predestined" has clearly stated God's intent from the beginning, even before the fall.

Everything comes from God, and everything should be drawn back to Him. God's original intent for the Incarnation was not redemption from the fall but adoption as sons of God (v5), that is deification/theosis/glorification (depending on your theological terminology).

For when God contemplated creating the world, He planned on bringing it into union with Himself through the Incarnation of His Son, that is, through the Son's union with human nature. That is why St Athanasius can say, "God became man that man might become god."

Peace be with you,
Eve

***John146*** · May 13th 2009, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by SeekingGodNGa

Im still confused

I just dont understand the Bible

Predestination and election are based on God's foreknowledge (Romans 8:28-29, 1 Peter 1:2). The ones that He predestined to be adopted as sons are the ones who He foreknew would believe in His Son, Jesus Christ. God is not a puppet master with us as His puppets. He desires all to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6) and gave all the opportunity to be saved by sending His only begotten Son to die for the sins of the whole world so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

***TrustingFollower*** · May 13th 2009, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by SeekingGodNGa

It says:

5He (A)predestined us to (B)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (C)according to the kind intention of His will

My question is this. If this was the case. If it was Gods 'Predestination" is this not interfearing with the "Free will" tht he has also givin us?

The way I see it there is a lot of people that think this verse is speaking about predestining individual people. Rather this verse is telling us that God predestined everything through Christ. God choose Christ before the foundation of the world and in doing so he also choose whom soever will believe in Christ. So what this is saying is that God predestined to save all of creation through Jesus Christ, but sadly we know not all of creation will choose to believe in Christ and be saved.