Ephesians 1;5

[JesusMySavior]

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:5, 11)

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

"And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant..." (Isaiah 49:5)


"Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” (2 Tim. 2:19)



I totally believe God knows who He is going to call before we are formed in the womb. When I think on this fact and realize how I've been saved by Jesus Christ, I'm completely humbled. I started weeping the first time I thought about it. God has no favoritism (Galatians 2:6), but He does know whose are His, and those He is going to choose. If one believes that the Father chose Christ's disciples, they at least believe somewhat in predestination.

The deeper question is, why God chooses people like Judas and Pharoah to be decieved and hardened and walk the path of destruction? I don't understand it, but God raises up kings and brings them low (Daniel 2:21), and I can only be thankful that I'm in Christ.

[RogerW]

It says:

5He (A)predestined us to (B)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (C)according to the kind intention of His will

My question is this. If this was the case. If it was Gods 'Predestination" is this not interfearing with the "Free will" tht he has also givin us?

Greetings Seeking,

I have a question for you. Does Scripture tell us that God offers eternal life to all who believe, or that God gives eternal life to all who believe?

Many Blessings,
RW

[BroRog]

There seems to be a misunderstanding of God's foreknowledge. When God foreknows something, it isn't as if he goes to the future to find out what happens by inspection. Rather, God's foreknowledge connotes what God intends to do in the future.

If God must go to the future to see whether a man believes or not, then he has not foreordained the man's destiny; the man has fixed his own destiny by the choice he made. For God to foreordain a man's destiny, God must ordain that the man believe.

[John146]

There seems to be a misunderstanding of God's foreknowledge. When God foreknows something, it isn't as if he goes to the future to find out what happens by inspection. Rather, God's foreknowledge connotes what God intends to do in the future.

If God must go to the future to see whether a man believes or not, then he has not foreordained the man's destiny; the man has fixed his own destiny by the choice he made. For God to foreordain a man's destiny, God must ordain that the man believe.

I completely disagree. Why can't it be true that based on His knowledge of the future God foreordained for it to be the case that anyone who believed would be conformed to the image of Christ and would be adopted as sons? Nowhere does scripture teach that God foreordained or predestined anyone to believe.

[slightlypuzzled]

There seems to be a misunderstanding of God's foreknowledge. When God foreknows something, it isn't as if he goes to the future to find out what happens by inspection. Rather, God's foreknowledge connotes what God intends to do in the future.

If God must go to the future to see whether a man believes or not, then he has not foreordained the man's destiny; the man has fixed his own destiny by the choice he made. For God to foreordain a man's destiny, God must ordain that the man believe.

The text in Romans 8 simply says 'those he foreknew'. In Isaiah 46 God 'declares the end from the beginning.' It is quite possible that God, whose has created all things and holds all things together by the word of His power, simply sees 'both ends' at the same time. He is not limited to linearity, but sees the totality of what He has created.

[holyrokker]

The word used πρωρίζω (prōrizō) means properly "to set bounds before;"
One way of understanding the passage is that God established the boundaries of adoption: specifically that boundary is through Christ.

It isn't saying that God choose particular people for salvation, but that God chose the means of salvation.

There is one path toward adoption as God's children - Christ.

[RogerW]

There seems to be a misunderstanding of God's foreknowledge. When God foreknows something, it isn't as if he goes to the future to find out what happens by inspection. Rather, God's foreknowledge connotes what God intends to do in the future.

If God must go to the future to see whether a man believes or not, then he has not foreordained the man's destiny; the man has fixed his own destiny by the choice he made. For God to foreordain a man's destiny, God must ordain that the man believe.

Greetings BroRog,

In fact God does know savingly all who will believe. You are correct, God did not foreknow they would believe and therefore He predestined them. He did in fact foreknow that no man would believe, therefore those whom He did foreknow, He predestined to believe. We could also argue those whom God does not foreknow are never ordained to eternal life, and will always remain those to whom Christ says, "Depart from Me...I never knew you."

Many Blessings,
RW

[RogerW]

The word used πρωρίζω (prōrizō) means properly "to set bounds before;"
One way of understanding the passage is that God established the boundaries of adoption: specifically that boundary is through Christ.

It isn't saying that God choose particular people for salvation, but that God chose the means of salvation.

There is one path toward adoption as God's children - Christ.

Greetings Holyrokker,

I cannot agree! The passage does not say "having predestinated a way or a means to salvation". It says that God predestinated "us". God chose "us" in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless. He did this through predestination [to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:--determine before, ordain, predestinate] unto "us" for adoption as children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. In this we [foreknown, chosen, predestined] are to the praise of His glory and His grace, wherein He made "us" accepted in Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Many Blessings,
RW

[Teke]

There seems to be a misunderstanding of God's foreknowledge. When God foreknows something, it isn't as if he goes to the future to find out what happens by inspection. Rather, God's foreknowledge connotes what God intends to do in the future.

If God must go to the future to see whether a man believes or not, then he has not foreordained the man's destiny; the man has fixed his own destiny by the choice he made. For God to foreordain a man's destiny, God must ordain that the man believe.

If you mean Romans 8:29, verse 28 speaks of "those who are the called according to His purpose."

God foreknows all things, but He doesn't predetermine all. For God is free and man is free. God freely offers salvation to all, and man freely responds to it. All are called, but all do not respond. He has predetermined that all who do respond through Christ will have salvation.

Peter furthers the calling/chosen subject (as Paul has mentioned in Romans) in speaking of Christ's priesthood and it's duties to Christ and the world. 1 Peter 2:9, 3:9

[TrustingFollower]

So are you trying to say that God the Holy Spirit lied to us when He wrote the following scriptures or perhaps Jesus was just pulling our chain and forgot to qualify the statements with "those predestined".

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

The other question that arises is explain how God created some without knowing them. If you say he foreknew some when he created them then I must say God foreknew every person He created. God is long suffering towards us and wishes all to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

And Jesus preached.

Luke 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Luke 13:5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

God has called to everyone to repent, Jesus has called to everyone to repent, and the Holy Spirit is still calling to everyone to repent. None of it says it is for just certain predetermined individuals, it is for all that believe in the name of Christ. Christ is the predestined and because we believe in him we get God's grace and adoption as sons.

The biggest problem with the Calvin doctrine is their belief that predestination is about individuals. It is not about us at all, it is about Christ. We as people are to bring glory to God, either by worship through our belief in Christ or through the demonstration of God power through His wrath for not believing in Christ.

[Butch5]

Ephesians 1:5 is "not" speaking of predestining individuals to salvation. It is speaking of the Jews "not" the gentiles. It was God's purpose to predestine through the Jews His Plan to redeem mankind. Paul goes into great detail in Romans 9 about this, referring to the election of Jacob over Esau. In Genesis, God told Abraham to come out of his country, Abraham did, he obeyed God and God counted him righteous. He continued to follow God, and God made a promise to Abraham that He would make a great nation from him and that all of the nations would be blessed through Abraham. Then God told Abraham to offer up Issac, when Abraham did this God stopped him and said,

Genesis 22:15-18 ( KJV )
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Now the promise had became an oath, God had sworn an oath to Abraham, from this point the promises were guaranteed. God will not back out of an oath. So God chose certain individuals through whom He would fulfill the promises.

[Teke]

God has called to everyone to repent, Jesus has called to everyone to repent, and the Holy Spirit is still calling to everyone to repent. None of it says it is for just certain predetermined individuals, it is for all that believe in the name of Christ. Christ is the predestined and because we believe in him we get God's grace and adoption as sons.

Put quite nicely Trusting. I agree.
To God He is the only begotten Son, but to us He is the firstborn of many brethen.

The biggest problem with the Calvin doctrine is their belief that predestination is about individuals.

Agreed.

It is not about us at all, it is about Christ. We as people are to bring glory to God, .... by worship through our belief in Christ ...

Agreed

[Butch5]

Greetings Holyrokker,

I cannot agree! The passage does not say "having predestinated a way or a means to salvation". It says that God predestinated "us". God chose "us" in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless. He did this through predestination [to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:--determine before, ordain, predestinate] unto "us" for adoption as children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. In this we [foreknown, chosen, predestined] are to the praise of His glory and His grace, wherein He made "us" accepted in Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Many Blessings,
RW

The "us" is Paul and the disciples. Look at the entire passage from 3-12.

Paul said,

Ephesians 1:8 ( KJV )
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Who was all wisdom and prudence given to? The Apostles,

John 16:12-13 ( KJV )
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Who was the mystery revealed to?

Luke 24:26-27 ( KJV )
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Ephesians 3:3-5 ( KJV )
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Ephesians 1:11 ( KJV )
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Who had received an inheritance? The Jews,

Genesis 13:14-15 ( KJV )
And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Also we have this passage commented on by Tertullian who also agrees that it is pertaining to the Jews.


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Again, what Christ do the following words announce, when the apostle says: “That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ?” (Ephesians 1:12) Now who could have first trusted—i.e., previously trusted in God, before His advent, except the Jews to whom Christ was previously announced, from the beginning? He who was thus foretold, was also foretrusted. Hence the apostle refers the statement to himself, that is, to the Jews, in order that he may draw a distinction with respect to the Gentiles, (when he goes on to say “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel (of your salvation); in whom ye believed, and were sealed with His Holy Spirit of promise.” (Ephesians 1:13) Of what promise?

[Butch5]

It says:

5He (A)predestined us to (B)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (C)according to the kind intention of His will

My question is this. If this was the case. If it was Gods 'Predestination" is this not interfearing with the "Free will" tht he has also givin us?

This is long but it is a very good article explaining this

http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf

[TrustingFollower]

Butch5, your push that this letter Paul wrote to Ephesus was to the Jews is a huge stretch. Read the first verse of the letter. This letter was written to the saints. That qualifies the entire letter to be written to all who believe in Christ, both in the day it was written as well as to everyone whom believe now and all points in between, as well as all future believers.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: