Believing Jews?

[Athanasius]

If Jesus had been accepted, would we all be Jews, or would Judaism have evolved into 'Christianity'? Then again, how much different would have the historical landscape been... Seems to me following Christ would be the logical conclusion for Jews, so I don't see why they would need to stop considering themselves 'Jewish'?

[ZAB]

Fair enough. Knowledge of Jewish customs and knowledge of the Old Testament helps a lot. But the real issue in the thread is the name: "Messianic Jew". Is that a valid name and is there supposed to be a distinction between Christians and "Messianic Jews"?

Hebrews 13 is relevant to this discussion.

HEB 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest `as an offering' for sin, are burned without the camp.

HEB 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate.

HEB 13:13 Let us therefore go forth unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Just as Christ suffered outside the gate, these Hebrews (they were also "Messianic Jews") had to leave the camp of Israel and Judaism behind to follow Christ. So, now I don't like the term "Messianic Jew". To me this is somone who accepted Christ as his Saviour, but he still stand with out foot inside the camp of Israel which he was supposed to leave behind.

Grace to you

That is a very good point. Thanks.

[ZAB]

Z Alan

Abraham became a Jew (in the covenant sense). He is also the father of the Gentiles! The Jewish covenant rite of circumcision was not institued until Abraham was about 99 years old (Gen 15:6; Gen 17:1, 24). He was justified (in faith) apart from this covenant rite, in order that he might be the father of ALL who believe, not solely the Jewish people. Read Romans 4:1-25, it should clarify.


You can't be serious. That statement is completly false. There is not one scripture to show that is true. Abraham a Jew, get real.

Wow, interesting response. Next time, I would appreciate some sort of Biblical reasoning if you have it. The Scriptures I told the OP to read are Romans 4:1-25. Did you read them?

These Scriptures define Abraham, not only as the father of the faith, but also as the father of the circumcision. Circumcision was the Jewish covenant rite (Acts 7:6-8). A Jew is not someone who is merely from Israel. In the Old testament, a Jew was someone who was in covenant with God. Obviously, Abraham was not born into "a Jewish family" (there were yet no Jews at this point) he simply instituted the covenant that defined Judaism, thus he himself became a Jew covenantally. Get it?

It was only by obedience to the commandment of circumcision that Abraham or any of Abraham's seed could be in covenental relationship with God, i.e. be Jews. To reject or neglect this rite would be to break the covenant and to cut oneself off from its benefits:
Genesis 17:13-14 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

Circumcision was the outward evidence of their inward committment to the terms of the covenant. So important was the rite of circumcision that God sought to kill Moses for failing to bring his own family into covenental relationship with God by circumcision (Exod 2:23-25; 3:1-6; 4:24-26).

[ZAB]

I'm in agreement with you, Lynne. In no way do I see the Hebrews scripture as saying Jews were to no longer be Jews to follow Messiah. I actually believe that my Savior told me to follow Him so I should have no problem doing what He did or being as He was and I do not think there is any doubt that He was born a Jew. Why would that be offensive to me?

God Bless!
Denise

Hi Denise, thanks for posting.
It's not that Jews are no longer to be Jews. Rather, the shadows of Judaism have been replaced by the substance of Christianity. Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. The Judaic covenants that were temporal have been replaced by the everlasting covenant (Heb 13:20-21) which is permanent. All throughout the Old Testament, in the Jewish rites and rituals, Jesus was shadowed forth. When He came, the ordinances of Judaism were fulfilled and therefore done away with. Some recognized this, and others did not. Those who did became followers of Jesus (Christians). Those who did not are still waiting and hoping for a messiah to come.
Your cultural heritage is not what is in question. However, if "Messianic Jews" rely on this heritage to be "accepted in the Beloved" (Eph 1:6), then that is error. I find that's why some people seek to retain their Judaism: because they feel holier in someway. That may even be why some "Gentiles" seek to "become Jewish" in that sense, like the Mexican wearing a prayer shawl I mentioned earlier.

God Bless you!

[Hanibal Texter]

I am amazed how a religion (Judaism) has been thrown in the mix here to say who Abraham and the Isrealite people are. Unreal.

Z alan you need to find a book by Arthur Koestler The Thirteenth Tribe.
It will help you with your studys. It was written by a Jew Mr. Koestler himself.

[ZAB]

I am amazed how a religion (Judaism) has been thrown in the mix here to say who Abraham and the Isrealite people are. Unreal.

Z alan you need to find a book by Arthur Koestler The Thirteenth Tribe.
It will help you with your studys. It was written by a Jew Mr. Koestler himself.

"Thrown in the mix?" I don't get it.

Again, no Scriptural basis? What's the point of a Bible forum then? I have given you nothing but the Scripture and you keep responding with words like "unreal". It certainly isn't helping your point of view.

[Lynne]

I find that's why some people seek to retain their Judaism: because they feel holier in someway. That may even be why some "Gentiles" seek to "become Jewish" in that sense, like the Mexican wearing a prayer shawl I mentioned earlier.

God Bless you!

Well, there are 50,000 Jews in Mexico and they've been there since Cortes and the Inquisition, so perhaps this particular Mexican you saw was Jewish.

I'm not Jewish, but I have a prayer shawl and I love it. When Jesus tells us "...when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly," (Matthew 6:6), He is referring to the tradition that when one puts on the prayer shawl, one is considered to have shut oneself off from the world. So perhaps the Mexican you observed was simply obeying his Master.

The shawls or stoles worn by some Christian ministers are the derivative of the tallit (prayer shawl).

It is a wonderful feeling to be enclosed in a prayer shawl. I don't feel holier by wrapping myself in one, but it is a tangible material symbol of leaving the world and drawing close to God. Too me, it is just something nice. Kind of like kneeling or lying face first on the floor to pray. Not necessary posture, but sometimes helpful in expressing love to God.

[Hanibal Texter]

"Thrown in the mix?" I don't get it.

Again, no Scriptural basis? What's the point of a Bible forum then? I have given you nothing but the Scripture and you keep responding with words like "unreal". It certainly isn't helping your point of view.

Well the reason is, we have two completly diffrent thoughts on what the ancestory of the Isrealite people are.
So therfore, if I quote a scripture we will be miles apart in it's meaning.

[David2]

Messianic Jews must (a) be circumcised, (b) must follow follow festival days and Sabbath days (c) must follow kosher rules and many other "shadows" and "first principals" of the law. All of these have been phased out in books like Galatians, Colossians, Acts (Peter's vision) and Hebrews. Sorry, no more place for Messianic Jews. You are either a Christian or you are not.

[ZAB]

Well the reason is, we have two completly diffrent thoughts on what the ancestory of the Isrealite people are.
So therfore, if I quote a scripture we will be miles apart in it's meaning.

Well, we could try? I am interetsed in what you have to say, as long as it's from a Biblical perpective.

What other ancestry is there other than Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel)?

I would love to politely discuss it, if you are willing.

[ZAB]

Well, there are 50,000 Jews in Mexico and they've been there since Cortes and the Inquisition, so perhaps this particular Mexican you saw was Jewish.

I'm not Jewish, but I have a prayer shawl and I love it. When Jesus tells us "...when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly," (Matthew 6:6), He is referring to the tradition that when one puts on the prayer shawl, one is considered to have shut oneself off from the world. So perhaps the Mexican you observed was simply obeying his Master.

The shawls or stoles worn by some Christian ministers are the derivative of the tallit (prayer shawl).

It is a wonderful feeling to be enclosed in a prayer shawl. I don't feel holier by wrapping myself in one, but it is a tangible material symbol of leaving the world and drawing close to God. Too me, it is just something nice. Kind of like kneeling or lying face first on the floor to pray. Not necessary posture, but sometimes helpful in expressing love to God.

If that makes you feel closer to Jesus, then do what you need to do. I am mostly referring to Romans 2 hypocrisy. I am also referring to Gentiles trying to "become Jewish" in rites and rituals for religion's sake. You may not use a prayer shawl for this reason, but some indeed do. This phenomenon is weird and error, I believe.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Rom 2:28-29).

[ZAB]

Messianic Jews must (a) be circumcised, (b) must follow follow festival days and Sabbath days (c) must follow kosher rules and many other "shadows" and "first principals" of the law. All of these have been phased out in books like Galatians, Colossians, Acts (Peter's vision) and Hebrews. Sorry, no more place for Messianic Jews. You are either a Christian or you are not.

Gal 5:3 "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

I would much rather be justified freely by faith in Christ Jesus (Rom 3:24)!

[crossnote]

Crossnote wrote: "Lastly I believe God makes a distinction. He speaks of the natural branches being grafted back in and compares it to the wild branches (gentiles) which he further argues how much easier it is to graft back in the natural branches than it was the wild olive branches. Sounds like a distinction to me."

I am a bit confused as to your point here. Are you saying that because there exists a distinction between Jew and Gentile, that we should act differently and be called by another name (Christian vs. Messianic Jew)? Thanks for clarifying.

As you just said there is a distinction. I don't see the Messianic Jews as trying to create a separate niche for themselves. All the ones I have known invite others to take part and learn with them their roots from the OT , which I would have to confess are much richer than my pagan roots

[embankmentlb]

I think anyone, Jew or Gentile, holding on to the OT is denying Jesus is the Christ. The bottom line is that Jesus did it all. He is the complete salvation for Jew & Gentile. We are new creations in him.
I know people who have a passion for the OT principals & claim an understanding of Christ. They may very well but theses same people spend 90% of their time defending the OT & 10% defending Jesus. I would say thats not having a relationship with Jesus.

[Studyin'2Show]

As you just said there is a distinction. I don't see the Messianic Jews as trying to create a separate niche for themselves. All the ones I have known invite others to take part and learn with them their roots from the OT , which I would have to confess are much richer than my pagan roots

You've hit the nail squarely on the head, my friend! All those who accept Messiah as Lord ARE 'the church' yet we are not all the same. All can not be a hand or a foot or a mouth. Why would a hand boast against a foot because the foot is different? It should not be so. We ALL should stop focusing on comparing ourselves to each other and start focusing on comparing ourselves to Messiah. He is our plumbline.

For David2, Nessianic believers do not have faith in their 'jewishness' as you suppose. They have faith in Messiah that through His precious blood they are saved. Do you have you faith in a Christmas tree or an easter bunny just because they may be a part of how you express your worship? I hope the answer is of course not. Neither do Messianics have faith in circumcision or the feasts or the law. If we take the time to understand our brothers and sisters through dialog and not judgment, we may find that our faith is, as it should be, in the same thing.

However, Paul warns us not to be ignorant of the mystery. Have you considered why he would say (though they hadn't yet believed in Messiah) that they were 'beloved for the sake of the fathers'?

Romans 11:28-31
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32

What gifts and calling of of God was he referring to being irrevocable? Paul was very clear that we should not boast against those who had been broken off that you could be grafted in. And btw, grafted into an existing tree, not growing a new one.

Romans 11:13-18
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

He was clearly speaking to the Gentile believers who must have been boasting against the Jews. Why is this still happening? Why focus on our differences rather than rejoicing in what is truly important....our acceptance of Messiah!

God Bless!
Denise