Believing Jews?

[ZAB]

I have noticed the term "believing Jew" or "Messianic Jew" floating around alot lately. Why aren't these people just called Christians? Is it some sense of false "religious" pride (Rom 3:1-2)? It it cultural identification? Is it patriotism to their national heritage? I know we cannot generalize, but what do you think?

Now, we even see Gentiles trying to act Jewish! I once saw a Mexican wearing a yamica and a prayer shawl! What in the world is going on?

"... the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." (Acts 11:26)

"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named..." (Eph 3:14-15).

"Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (Acts 26:28).

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:28).

Any thoughts?

Z

[Hanibal Texter]

I read many post here on Jews, Gentiles and it amazes me most people here don't have a clue of what it all means. They just throw the terms around with no in insight to what is being said. Really crazy.

[ZAB]

I read many post here on Jews, Gentiles and it amazes me most people here don't have a clue of what it all means. They just throw the terms around with no in insight to what is being said. Really crazy.

Hi again,
care to elaborate?

[TrustingFollower]

Personally I have no idea why one would hold onto the bondage of following the law once they have been set free. The law has a purpose and that is to lead us to Christ. Once we get there then it is time to live Christ not some tradition.

Galatians 3:22-26 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (23) Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. (24) So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. (25) But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, (26) for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

[Hanibal Texter]

A Jew is a person whose religion is Jew‑dah‑ism (Judaism). The word Jew is not found in the original texts of the Scriptures, but in many English Bibles the word is an incorrect rendering of the latin word Judaeus, the Greek word Ioudaios, and the Hebrew word Yehudi. Although not found in either the Hebrew or the Greek Scriptures, the word Jew is an English rendering most often incorrectly translated from Yahudah, that is, referring to one belonging to one of the tribes of Israel (Yisrael) called Yahudah (Judah), a Yahudite. The word Jews, the plural of the word Jew, is incorrectly translated most often from the word Yahudim (descendants of the tribe of Yahudah).

[ZAB]

I think alot of has to do with religious history. My in-laws are Jewish and they glory in it (even though they are spirit-filled believers). They always quote that verse to me, "salvation is of the Jews". I guess they are proud of the fact that their ancestors partook of the Old Covenant economy:

Romans 3:1-2 "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

That is honorable, but Abraham (who is the "father" of the faith) was not a Jew, he was around before "Jews" existed (Romans 4:9-14). (See explanation in post below).

It would do them well to keep in mind Romans 2:25-29 "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

So, why would Gentiles want to become Jew-like? Is it merely to appear religious? I sure hope that's not the reason.

[crossnote]

I have noticed the term "believing Jew" or "Messianic Jew" floating around alot lately. Why aren't these people just called Christians? Is it some sense of false "religious" pride (Rom 3:1-2)? It it cultural identification? Is it patriotism to their national heritage? I know we cannot generalize, but what do you think?

Now, we even see Gentiles trying to act Jewish! I once saw a Mexican wearing a yamica and a prayer shawl! What in the world is going on?

"... the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." (Acts 11:26)

"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named..." (Eph 3:14-15).

"Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (Acts 26:28).

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:28).

Any thoughts?

Z

Well first off if by Gal 3:28 you are arguing on that basis there should be no distinction, then to be consistent you would have to ask why is there a distinction between male and female. The context in Galatians is that when it comes to justification, there is no distinction for we have all been baptized or ingrafted into ONE Body. But in our day to day life there are distinctions...hopefully.
You might if you have not yet read up on the history of the transition of the early church from predominately Jewish converts to a Hellenization of the Church. Much of the transition was seen in a change of worship and a miixing of greek philosophies in with God's Word.
I am not saying that the Messianic movement is angelic or anything but I do believe that they have a sincere desire to dig deep and draw out from their historic roots.
Lastly I believe God makes a distinction. He speaks of the natural branches being grafted back in and compares it to the wild branches (gentiles) which he further argues how much easier it is to graft back in the natural branches than it was the wild olive branches. Sounds like a distinction to me.

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(Rom 11:18-24)

Lastly, lastly. Abraham was not a Jew? ...and yet he is considered the Father of the Jews! That makes little sense.

[Lynne]

Earlier today, in another post, I referred to my husband as a believing Jew. What I meant was he is a Jew who believes Jesus. It was relevant information in the context of my post.

I would invite you to consider how much insight and understanding of both Testaments can be gained by being familiar with Jewish cultural heritage, customs, and practices. For example, Jesus is constantly being revealed in the Old Testament and it is easier for me to spot Him when I understand the cultural context.

If you have never had a chance to attend a Seder (Passover meal), I would invite you to ours because I think you would be blown away at how obviously Jesus is revealed during the meal. It is really quite wonderful and faith enhancing.

God bless you.

[ZAB]

Earlier today, in another post, I referred to my husband as a believing Jew. What I meant was he is a Jew who believes Jesus. It was relevant information in the context of my post.

I would invite you to consider how much insight and understanding of both Testaments can be gained by being familiar with Jewish cultural heritage, customs, and practices. For example, Jesus is constantly being revealed in the Old Testament and it is easier for me to spot Him when I understand the cultural context.

If you have never had a chance to attend a Seder (Passover meal), I would invite you to ours because I think you would be blown away at how obviously Jesus is revealed during the meal. It is really quite wonderful and faith enhancing.

God bless you.

Hi Lynne,
I agree with you. There are aspects of the Christian faith that are easier understood through cultural eyes. My in-laws teach a class called "Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith". I've been to a couple Seders too. Alot of it is pretty interesting .

[ZAB]

Well first off if by Gal 3:28 you are arguing on that basis there should be no distinction, then to be consistent you would have to ask why is there a distinction between male and female. The context in Galatians is that when it comes to justification, there is no distinction for we have all been baptized or ingrafted into ONE Body. But in our day to day life there are distinctions...hopefully.

Under the Gospel all distinctions are done away, as either helping or hindering; all are equally welcome to Christ, and all have an equal need of him; all people of all sects, and conditions, and sexes, who believe in him, become one family through him; they are one body, of which he is the head. Of course we still have natural distinctions, however.

You might if you have not yet read up on the history of the transition of the early church from predominately Jewish converts to a Hellenization of the Church. Much of the transition was seen in a change of worship and a miixing of greek philosophies in with God's Word.
I am not saying that the Messianic movement is angelic or anything but I do believe that they have a sincere desire to dig deep and draw out from their historic roots.

I agree, see my above post

Lastly I believe God makes a distinction. He speaks of the natural branches being grafted back in and compares it to the wild branches (gentiles) which he further argues how much easier it is to graft back in the natural branches than it was the wild olive branches. Sounds like a distinction to me.

I am a bit confused as to your point here. Are you saying that because there exists a distinction between Jew and Gentile, that we should act differently and be called by another name (Christian vs. Messianic Jew)? Thanks for clarifying.

Lastly, lastly. Abraham was not a Jew? ...and yet he is considered the Father of the Jews! That makes little sense.

Abraham became a Jew (in the covenant sense). He is also the father of the Gentiles! The Jewish covenant rite of circumcision was not institued until Abraham was about 99 years old (Gen 15:6; Gen 17:1, 24). He was justified (in faith) apart from this covenant rite, in order that he might be the father of ALL who believe, not solely the Jewish people. Read Romans 4:1-25, it should clarify.

[David2]

Hi Lynne,
I agree with you. There are aspects of the Christian faith that are easier understood through cultural eyes. My in-laws teach a class called "Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith". I've been to a couple Seders too. Alot of it is pretty interesting .

Fair enough. Knowledge of Jewish customs and knowledge of the Old Testament helps a lot. But the real issue in the thread is the name: "Messianic Jew". Is that a valid name and is there supposed to be a distinction between Christians and "Messianic Jews"?

Hebrews 13 is relevant to this discussion.

HEB 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest `as an offering' for sin, are burned without the camp.

HEB 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate.

HEB 13:13 Let us therefore go forth unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Just as Christ suffered outside the gate, these Hebrews (they were also "Messianic Jews") had to leave the camp of Israel and Judaism behind to follow Christ. So, now I don't like the term "Messianic Jew". To me this is somone who accepted Christ as his Saviour, but he still stand with out foot inside the camp of Israel which he was supposed to leave behind.

Grace to you

[Hanibal Texter]

Z Alan

Abraham became a Jew (in the covenant sense). He is also the father of the Gentiles! The Jewish covenant rite of circumcision was not institued until Abraham was about 99 years old (Gen 15:6; Gen 17:1, 24). He was justified (in faith) apart from this covenant rite, in order that he might be the father of ALL who believe, not solely the Jewish people. Read Romans 4:1-25, it should clarify.


You can't be serious. That statement is completly false. There is not one scripture to show that is true. Abraham a Jew, get real.

[Lynne]

Hebrews 13 is relevant to this discussion.

HEB 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest `as an offering' for sin, are burned without the camp.

HEB 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate.

HEB 13:13 Let us therefore go forth unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Just as Christ suffered outside the gate, these Hebrews (they were also "Messianic Jews") had to leave the camp of Israel and Judaism behind to follow Christ. So, now I don't like the term "Messianic Jew". To me this is somone who accepted Christ as his Saviour, but he still stand with out foot inside the camp of Israel which he was supposed to leave behind.

Grace to you

I don't understand Hebrews 13:11-13 in the same way you do. As I understand it, the writer is talking to Jewish Christians. To them, to be "outside the camp" meant to be unclean. He is saying Jesus suffered uncleaness on their behalf. I think he is exhorting these "believing Jews" to follow Jesus, no matter that they will suffer for it. Therefore, I don't agree this passage is relevant to this discussion.

[Studyin'2Show]

I don't understand Hebrews 13:11-13 in the same way you do. As I understand it, the writer is talking to Jewish Christians. To them, to be "outside the camp" meant to be unclean. He is saying Jesus suffered uncleaness on their behalf. I think he is exhorting these "believing Jews" to follow Jesus, no matter that they will suffer for it. Therefore, I don't agree this passage is relevant to this discussion.

I'm in agreement with you, Lynne. In no way do I see the Hebrews scripture as saying Jews were to no longer be Jews to follow Messiah. I actually believe that my Savior told me to follow Him so I should have no problem doing what He did or being as He was and I do not think there is any doubt that He was born a Jew. Why would that be offensive to me?

God Bless!
Denise

[Hanibal Texter]

I'm in agreement with you, Lynne. In no way do I see the Hebrews scripture as saying Jews were to no longer be Jews to follow Messiah. I actually believe that my Savior told me to follow Him so I should have no problem doing what He did or being as He was and I do not think there is any doubt that He was born a Jew. Why would that be offensive to me?

God Bless!
Denise

Really, are you sure he wasn't born a Galilean.