Believing Jews?

[TrustingFollower]

Uh, no thanks in my case. I dumped my gentile, that is, pagan, occult, satanic, luciferian, atheist God hating culture and traded it in for acting just a little bit like a Jew, that is, God fearing, God worshipping, praying, scripture reading, ... lots of wonderful things that some Christians may think they invented.

I believe in fearing God, worshiping God, in praying, in studying the scriptures and all that, but because I don't follow the Jewish customs, that does not make me pagan. We become new creations and no we don't have the right to say we invented it. Man can screw up even the best things that has ever come to man. Just look at how man has screwed up Christianity. I mean we have 38000 different flavors, who call themselves Christian. The thing is though I and most gentile Christians do see us as looked down upon because we don't act Jewish like the Messianic do. This is the biggest rub with this and why I think there is this kind of tension between the two groups.

Believe me I say if it makes you happy to follow kosher law and Torah and all that then go for it, as long as keeping all the traditions don't become the god rather than our one true God.

[Lynne]

The thing is though I and most gentile Christians do see us as looked down upon because we don't act Jewish like the Messianic do. This is the biggest rub with this and why I think there is this kind of tension between the two groups.

Believe me I say if it makes you happy to follow kosher law and Torah and all that then go for it, as long as keeping all the traditions don't become the god rather than our one true God.

I'm sorry you've been looked down upon by Messianic Jews/Christians. I don't know any Messianic personally, so I can't specifically commiserate, but I've been looked down upon by Christians for taking medication, not celebrating Christmas or Easter, playing cards, not playing cards (a very social, game playing group I tried to spend time with but I don't care much for card games), not caring for loud rock music in worship services, not speaking in tongues (I couldn't believe the pressure to do that!), not caring to dance around in the aisles with my arms in the air, on and on. Must be good old human nature to look down upon others, and it hurts. I'm sorry that happened to you.

Messianic are persecuted, sometimes to the extreme, in Israel so many probably understand how you feel.

I don't keep kosher and never considered it because I see my brother-in-law's family do it, and it is colossally inconvenient to say the least and as I understand several NT passages, I'm free not to. But believe me, some kosher food is good. I do follow Torah in the sense Torah means the first five books of the OT and I'll spend the rest of my life mining them, along with the rest of scripture.

If this entire thread has been about the unbecoming behavior of some Messianic Jews or Messianic Christians, then I've misunderstood it and I have no experience or knowledge about it so I don't really have anything to say. I've got plenty of my own short comings I could talk about. Shalom.

[Studyin'2Show]

I believe in fearing God, worshiping God, in praying, in studying the scriptures and all that, but because I don't follow the Jewish customs, that does not make me pagan. We become new creations and no we don't have the right to say we invented it. Man can screw up even the best things that has ever come to man. Just look at how man has screwed up Christianity. I mean we have 38000 different flavors, who call themselves Christian. The thing is though I and most gentile Christians do see us as looked down upon because we don't act Jewish like the Messianic do. This is the biggest rub with this and why I think there is this kind of tension between the two groups.

Believe me I say if it makes you happy to follow kosher law and Torah and all that then go for it, as long as keeping all the traditions don't become the god rather than our one true God.

I actually don't mind all the 'flavors'. Paul speaks about us all being members of the same body but each with different roles to perform. The hand doesn't have any reason to look at a foot and be upset it is not a hand. Each has its purpose and each purpose is necessary. I've actually found that God has given me many opportunities to witness to Jews that another believer might not have the opportunity to do. God uses me as I am, as I'm sure He uses you as you are. I really don't see a problem with that. Where I do see a problem is one believer judging another believer by their own standards. By our own Master we will each be judged so no one else's judgment even matters. Right? I'm sorry if you've felt there are those that look down at you. I hope it's only been perceived and not that they are actually doing so but I can't speak for anyone else. I know that I have had more than one believer on this very board tell me that I am not saved so believe me, I understand judgment. That is something that the body of Messiah just does not need from either position I say.

God Bless!
Denise

[TrustingFollower]

I actually don't mind all the 'flavors'. Paul speaks about us all being members of the same body but each with different roles to perform. The hand doesn't have any reason to look at a foot and be upset it is not a hand. Each has its purpose and each purpose is necessary. I've actually found that God has given me many opportunities to witness to Jews that another believer might not have the opportunity to do. God uses me as I am, as I'm sure He uses you as you are. I really don't see a problem with that. Where I do see a problem is one believer judging another believer by their own standards. By our own Master we will each be judged so no one else's judgment even matters. Right? I'm sorry if you've felt there are those that look down at you. I hope it's only been perceived and not that they are actually doing so but I can't speak for anyone else. I know that I have had more than one believer on this very board tell me that I am not saved so believe me, I understand judgment. That is something that the body of Messiah just does not need from either position I say.

God Bless!
Denise

I want to say I agree with all you said here. We all have to strive to create the oneness in the spirit Paul talks about so often. We are all different with different jobs to do for the kingdom. If we were all the same how boring would that be.

[Firstfruits]

So your view is that if we are truly led by the Spirit then we should walk any way except anything that is in the OT (the only scripture when the NT was written) that might make us "look Jewish"? In other words, being led by the Spirit looks distinctly Gentile and not Jewish?

That which separates Jew from Gentile and Gentile from Jew cannot stand if we are to be as one. Christ has therefore abolished that which caused us not to be one.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

If this is not so there can be no peace between Jew and Gentile.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[Studyin'2Show]

That which separates Jew from Gentile and Gentile from Jew cannot stand if we are to be as one. Christ has therefore abolished that which caused us not to be one.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

If this is not so there can be no peace between Jew and Gentile.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

There is no wall of separation. It's like a big box of crayons. They are all different yet they are the same...crayons. Let us rejoice in the variety and not expect our brother or sister to fit into our form. Even the apostles has differences of opinion on issues, yet they agreed on the important thing...Messiah! Let us do the same.

And TF, you're 100% correct. How boring it would be without the awesome variety in the Kingdom. Thanks for the dialog.

God Bless!
Denise

[Firstfruits]

There is no wall of separation. It's like a big box of crayons. They are all different yet they are the same...crayons. Let us rejoice in the variety and not expect our brother or sister to fit into our form. Even the apostles has differences of opinion on issues, yet they agreed on the important thing...Messiah! Let us do the same.

And TF, you're 100% correct. How boring it would be without the awesome variety in the Kingdom. Thanks for the dialog.

God Bless!
Denise

With regards to the following scripture, if there is no longer a wall of separation, why do we continue as though what has been abolished still stands?

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Are we doing a disservice to Christ if we ignore what Jesus has done?

God bless you Dennise!!!!!

Firstfruits

[BHS]

Hi FF,
when I say "lifestyle", I am referring mostly to one's culture. The verse you quoted in Romans is speaking of lifestyle in relation to righteousness, peace, love, joy, etc. It is speaking of resurrection life, that is, being dead to sin, and "buried with Him by baptism into death". This doesn't refer to culture at all. One can be Jamaican, partake of the Jamaican culture, eat Jamaican food, speak the Jamaican language, and yet still be a genuine Christian. The same goes for Jews, and every other culture, as long as cultural rituals are not associated with sin, as defined in the Bible.

As far as your question is concerned: When we come to Christ, we should be identified as Christians, that is, followers (disciples) of Jesus. We are becoming partakers of His divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), and are escaping the corruption of our lustful humanity, but that does not mean that we are losing our individual personalities and uniqueness. I will always be me, however, Jesus in me will come to fruition. The Bible says, "Ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most high" (Ps 82:6; Jn 10:34). We will be like him, but we will always be "children of the most high".

God bless you

Bless you for your understanding that the "old man" relates to sin, rather than culture. This is a key component to all of Paul's writings.

BHS

[Firstfruits]

Bless you for your understanding that the "old man" relates to sin, rather than culture. This is a key component to all of Paul's writings.

BHS

Are we not taught that both Jew and Gentile are under sin, whether we keep the law or not?

Firstfruits

[Emanate]

Are we not taught that both Jew and Gentile are under sin, whether we keep the law or not?

Firstfruits

you mean it is possible to be free from the law and still under sin?

[Firstfruits]

you mean it is possible to be free from the law and still under sin?

Gentiles who never had the law are under sin, Jews who have the law are under sin.

Only through Christ can we be free of sin.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[ZAB]

Does this scripture infer change or of remaining the same?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Is the old man to remain the same? have Gods commandments changed?

Jn 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Ex 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Ezekiel 44:7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

Ezekiel 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

According to the law God requires both circumcision of the heart and of the flesh.

In order to keep the things of the law you must abide in Gods commands, so if unless God has changed them, can we change them because they do not fit in with Christianity?

Gods law separates Jew from Gentile.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Hi again FF,
I think we may be on 2 different pages. You dont seem to understand me when I say that one can have a culture as long as it doesnt contradict one's spirituality. You are still refering to "change" spiritually (Rom 6:4). I am speaking of one's personality! You are still referring to the parts of the Jewish culture that contradict the beliefs of Christianity, i.e. their attitude towards other nations. We already estalished this was wrong to do so. So, in that sense, yes, we are to change. But that doesnt mean that every Jewish thing someone does is wrong. Make sense? Is it wrong to eat Matza? I doubt it.

[Emanate]

Gentiles who never had the law are under sin, Jews who have the law are under sin.

Only through Christ can we be free of sin.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ah, so clearly the problem is not the law, but sin. can you show me in the law where this division you speak of is found?

[Firstfruits]

ah, so clearly the problem is not the law, but sin. can you show me in the law where this division you speak of is found?

We seem to believe that by keeping the law it will make us better than those that do not keep it however the following teaches otherwise.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Although the bible teaches otherwise we seem to believe other than what is written. This will and does cause division, however as Christ has abolished the enmity should we continue to hold that which divides?

I hope that helps.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[Studyin'2Show]

With regards to the following scripture, if there is no longer a wall of separation, why do we continue as though what has been abolished still stands?

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Are we doing a disservice to Christ if we ignore what Jesus has done?

God bless you Dennise!!!!!

Firstfruits

Continue as though there is a wall? I don't believe there is a wall. Do you? There are no walls between myself and another believer who may observe different holy days than I do. Why would that be a wall? What has brought us together is Messiah. Who is ignoring what Yeshua has done? I really don't understand your position with this post.

God Bless!
Denise