Christian dogmatism

[djh22]

As per SLUG1 I've brought this subject to the open forum so you can all contribute.
This is a copy of the conversation I had with a Moderator after I'd changed my status to Non-christian.
I'll leave it to you guy's to debate the subject, that's if the post is not deleted.

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I've changed my status to non-christian because although I believe Jesus was a very righteous man and teacher who did wonderful miracles and brought brought the rest of the world to God I do not believe Jesus is the Messiah or that his death could atone my sins.
I was informed by someone that because I didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah or my saviour I could not be a Christian and therefore I have amended my signature accordingly.
I apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused.

God bless.
djh22.


Hi djh22,
I'm sorry to have to do this, but as you have changed your status to that of a non-Christian, we need to restrict you to posting in the Chat to the Moderators forum until this gets straightened out.

Please start a thread there at your earliest convenience to my attention, and I'll get to you as soon as I'm able.

Thanks.
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Thanks for starting this thread, and clearing that up for us.

I need you to acknowledge that you understand and will comply with the rules of the board in reference to non-Christian's posting, which in summary are:

You may post in the Christians Answer forum, and the Kicking Back sub-forum therein.

You may also post in the Chat to the Moderators forum (obviously), Introductions, and Prayer Requests forums.

Before you post in the Christians Answer forum, please take a moment and familiarize yourself with the rules of the forum as they are different from the rest of the board.

Once you acknowledge the above, I'll go ahead and release your account.

Thanks Mcyver,
Yes I understand and agree to that.
It's a pity than Non Christians can't take part in Bible chat as it's what I'm particularly interested in and after all The Bible includes the Old Testament doesn't it ? and a lot of the New testament refers to the OT.

Best.

djh22.

True...but then again you are free to ask such questions in the CA forum...

Any question that concerns the "why" of our beliefs, as long as they are respectfully submitted; are more than welcome there.

Further, being a non-debate type of forum (more along the lines of questions and answers), normally all the "rabbit trails" that form in Bible Chat are avoided.

Anyway, I'll free up your account in just a minute, after which you are welcome to post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgyver http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
True...but then again you are free to ask such questions in the CA forum...

Hmm OK but I'd prefer to be able to answer questions and join in the debate after 40 odd years of study I feel more qualified than most.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgyver http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Further, being a non-debate type of forum (more along the lines of questions and answers), normally all the "rabbit trails" that form in Bible Chat are avoided.

This is true, but where would the world be without dedate,this is how we get the real answers.

I know - rules is rules etc etc..


Best,
djh22.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djh22 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
This is true, but where would the world be without dedate,this is how we get the real answers.


I'm gonna jump in a sec cause this led me to post... what you said about where would the world be without debate?

Who cares about debate! Without it, we'd only have the truth before us without man twisting it all up through "debate". Debate is nothing much more then turning something into what "we" want it to be.... cause what fuels debate... opinion.

How you get the real answers is simply to seek and accept... that is what faith is about. No debate, ask God, seek the answer in the Bible and accept it as the truth cause there is no debate. It's God's will in our life and we surrender to that and mature or it's our way and we fail. No mixing 1/2 His and 1/2 our way.

You either accept God's Word as truth, or you debate and get led "around" the meaning He intends and never get filled with His truth.

1 Timothy 1:3-5 (New King James Version)

No Other Doctrine

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

Titus 3:8-10 (New King James Version)

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
Avoid Dissension

9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
__________________
Slug1--out

Yes Slug,
Although your post seems somewhat confrontational I actually agree with what you say about faith.
BUT - There are several scriptures that have several meanings,just look at the posts in Bible chat,for example what day was the crucifixion ? ,should Gentiles observe the sabbath,what did the laws that God gave Noah mean and the ramifications off of them? who should be circumcised ? etc,etc.
OK maybe debate is the wrong word but I think you know what I mean.

Oh and BTW - I thought this was a private section,can anyone jump in and comment ?
God bless.
djh22.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djh22 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Yes Slug,
Although your post seems somewhat confrontational I actually agree with what you say about faith.
BUT - There are several scriptures that have several meanings,just look at the posts in Bible chat,for example what day was the crucifixion ? ,should Gentiles observe the sabbath,what did the laws that God gave Noah mean and the ramifications off of them? who should be circumcised ? etc,etc.
OK maybe debate is the wrong word but I think you know what I mean.


All of that can be answered if you seek God and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you to the answers and fill you with understanding. Don't only/always seek meaning of scripture from man. We'll mess it up much of the time until we allow God to be in charge and tell us what it means.

Is it really important "which" day Jesus was crucified on... or just the importance that He "was" crucified and that He "is" resurrected?

Is there a sabbath or is everyday a day in Jesus Christ now?

Did Jesus issue in the New Covenant between God and man with Jesus as the mediator or is man to revert back to the Old Covenant and 613 rules/regulations to mediate between God and man? If so, why Jesus at all then?

Just allow Jesus to answer all and in this you maintain a relationship with Him that grows stronger... more faith, more trust in Him as a result !!
Quote:
Oh and BTW - I thought this was a private section,can anyone jump in and comment ?
God bless.
djh22.
The discussion was pretty much resolved with mcgyver and Admins have the liberty of butting their heads into anything on the board

Edit:

Oh, scripture has several meanings?

Only one meaning... and that's God's Truth.

Many scriptures will have multiple meanings when taken as singular scriptures OR when several scriptures are jigsaw puzzled together from different parts of the Word of God and molded into a meaning man wants it to have when seen in that new order.

This new order is usually called doctrine and messes up so much. Not all doctrine is messed up cause context and truth is glorified but not all the time.

Scripture must remain in and read in "context" so the power in it, the "Truth" in it, remains. Then only the truth remains and it retains the power that God intends... people will be convicted, enlightened, healed, delivered etc.

Instead of "debate", should we use discussion that edifies us in understanding? If so, this will give glory to God.
__________________
Slug1--out

There you see we already have a debate/discussion.

I've been lucky enough to have studied God's word since I was 16 (I'm now 62) and in the last 20 odd years within a multi faith congregation of Muslims,Jews and Christians and we ALL discover new meanings of God's word every day and are pleased to learn from each other and by this we en richen the community.
God is not a dictator ,he blessed us all with free thought so we may learn,didn't Jesus teach us to think for ourselves and not be led like sheep ?
Be careful your argument in context doesn't negate christianity .
God bless.

djh22. ( out )

Quote:
Originally Posted by djh22 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
didn't Jesus teach us to think for ourselves and not be led like sheep ?
Be careful your argument in context doesn't negate christianity .
God bless.

djh22. ( out )

I'd rather be raised in Jesus, led by men raised in Jesus that are obedient to the will of God seeking truth as led by the Holy Spirit... then led by men doing it the way they figure and serving the way they want to serve.

Debates do negate truth though cause the one who debates the "best" but "listens" the least, is usually the winner.

Multi faith? There's only one faith and only one way to God and that's through a relationship with Jesus Christ.
__________________
Slug1--out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
I'd rather be raised in Jesus, led by men raised in Jesus that are obedient to the will of God seeking truth as led by the Holy Spirit... then led by men doing it the way they figure and serving the way they want to serve.

Because I'm not classed as a Christian it doesn't mean I don't agree with Jesu's teaching.I'm neither Christian,Jew,or Muslim but I strive to please the Lord our God according to what I've learned over the past 60 odd years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Debates do negate truth though cause the one who debates the "best" but "listens" the least, is usually the winner.

Not so,I'm my experience it usually leads to better understanding of the other persons point of view,non of us are perfect and can say our way is correct,the mind must always be open to learning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Multi faith? There's only one faith and only one way to God and that's through a relationship with Jesus Christ.

No matter what we personally believe we must all work towards understanding and respecting the other persons point of view, that way we work together for the community as we have proved were I live.The alternative is to have a world of wars and conflict.

I hope this helps you understand my philosophy a bit better.

God be with you.

djh22.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djh22 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
I hope this helps you understand my philosophy a bit better.

God be with you.

djh22.

It helps me understand why you changed from Christian to non-Christian.

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

I'll close this thread now... so you can bring your philosophy to the open board. There you will find only one focus and that is faith in God through our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Respecting another's point of view doesn't make them or their point of view correct. In the case of your Muslim and Jewish friends... if their point of views about faith is correct then that means that there are many ways, many paths to God.

There isn't, there is only one.

If they "listened" they wouldn't be calling themselves what they do and they'd cease worshiping their way and put their faith in Jesus Christ who is the only way to God.
__________________
Slug1--out

[Vhayes]

Could you help me understand something? Why would you declare yourself a Christian if you do not believe Jesus is the Promise, the Messiah?

I'm not being disrespectful, I just don't understand why you would do such.

Thanks -
V

[djh22]

No problem VHayes,
I take it you mean when I first registered, - As previously stated,I believe in Jesus but not as God,the Messiah or my saviour,I do believe in God the almighty.
I've lately found that this doesn't qualify me as a Christian hence the change in status.

God bless.

djh22.

[Slug1]

djh22, I cleaned it all up and broke each post into it's own quote. If I missed anything, let me know and I'll fix it... I think I got it all though

[Vhayes]

Ah - thank you. I appreciate the reply.

May I ask why you don't believe Jesus is the Christ, the great I AM?

I don't want to get into a debate or a lengthy discussion, I'm just curious. If you read the New Testament, especially the gospels, Jesus says some things that would lead you to believe He is either Who He says He is (God Almighty in the flesh) or a total whack job. Prophet and moral man isn't really an option He left open.

V

[Dani H]

Because I'm not classed as a Christian it doesn't mean I don't agree with Jesu's teaching.

If you really agreed with Jesus' teaching then you would have to also agree that there is no other way to God, because He was very clear about that. He Himself never said that He was a righteous man or teacher; He was very clear as to who He defined Himself to be and that He had a very unique relationship to God and His authority. And, He demonstrated that by the things He did. Jesus isn't a buffet; what He is, is a whole Person, and ALL of His teachings are truth, whether or not we can accept them as such.

[Sojourner]

It's a pity than Non Christians can't take part in Bible chat as it's what I'm particularly interested in...

I suppose you can chat about the Bible in "Christian Answers".

I hope that you agree that rules are a good thing. This boards administers and many moderators has years and years of experience and they know what works and what don't, I trust their judgments and you should too. I think that it would be chaos if they release unbelievers into the Christian only forum; not only would there be a discussion between two opposing Christian views, but a third from a unrenewed mind from someone who has not the Spirit of God. Please understand they are not being judgmental, the unbeliever has a lot of lee way within their alloted forums.

[djh22]

djh22, I cleaned it all up and broke each post into it's own quote. If I missed anything, let me know and I'll fix it... I think I got it all though

Thanks Slug1,
Looks good to me ,you've done a great job.
Thanks.
djh22.

[Athanasius]

Just wondering, have any authors played a part in your view of Jesus? Aside from the writers of scripture...

[tt1106]

So you do not believe in the Resurrection, then? Why did Jesus say that he is the only way, if he is not. He would not be righteous, he would be a deceiver, would he not?

[djh22]

I don't understand your dogma , why does a believer have to fit into a category ?
I am not a Christian,Jew,Muslim,Hindu,Sikh,Budist,Taoist,Zoro astrian or Mithraist.
Although it's strange that Christianity followed many similarities to Mithra ism.
Over the past 40 odd years of study and working with other faiths I've come to this conclusion.
I believe in God without a shadow of doubt.
I believe that Jesus existed and that he taught us love,humility,the value of life,an understanding of some of the old scriptures and taught us some new.
I believe he brought the the rest of the world an understanding of God.
I don't believe in the virgin birth.
I don't believe he was the Messiah.
I have seen no satisfactory evidence of the crucifixion or resurrection although I believe the crucifixion probably happened
I don't believe his death can atone all sins.

I do believe that we all have a duty to understand and work with other faiths for the betterment of mankind.

djh22

[Athanasius]

I don't understand your dogma, why does a believer have to fit into a category? I am not a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Taoist, Zoroastrian or Mithraist. Although it's strange that Christianity followed many similarities to Mithra ism.

All categories are are descriptions. Most people on the street know that a Christian believes in Jesus Christ, that a Jew eats only kosher food and follows the Torah. They know that Muslims believe in a god named Allah and that Mohamed is his prophet. They know that Hindu's have over 220 million gods. They know that Sikh's have long beards and that Buddha was a 'great person'. They know Taoism because they think the 'yin' and 'yang' symbol is cool, even though they don't understand feng shui. They know Mithra because recently he's been compared to Christ. These are varying and disparate beliefs that cannot be reconciled, even though they are all attempts to explain life, existence, the cosmos and ultimately address the question of God. By even proclaiming belief in God you're putting yourself into a category. Then again, there's nothing wrong with categories, most of the time.

Over the past 40 odd years of study and working with other faiths I've come to this conclusion.

I believe in God without a shadow of doubt.
I believe that Jesus existed and that he taught us love,humility,the value of life,an understanding of some of the old scriptures and taught us some new.
I believe he brought the the rest of the world an understanding of God.
I don't believe in the virgin birth.
I don't believe he was the Messiah.
I have seen no satisfactory evidence of the crucifixion or resurrection although I believe the crucifixion probably happened
I don't believe his death can atone all sins.

I do believe that we all have a duty to understand and work with other faiths for the betterment of mankind.

djh22

Jesus' teachings contradict those of Mohammad's, who's teachings also contradict those of the Old Testament prophets (as well as Jesus'). The teachings of these two men contradict those of the Buddha, who stands in contradiction to the teachers of Hinduism. Zoroastrianism / Mithraism are opposed to the religions and teachings above. They are beliefs that can't be reconciled unless you start denying key teachings - those ones which are 'offensive' and 'contradictory'.

From what I gather you don't actually believe the Bible outside of it describing a nice man named Jesus who mistakenly thought himself to be the Messiah. What it said about Jesus was wrong though. What Jesus said and taught about Himself was wrong as well. So then I'm left wondering where you garner your beliefs about Jesus...

[djh22]

Jesus' teachings contradict those of Mohammad's, who's teachings also contradict those of the Old Testament prophets (as well as Jesus'). The teachings of these two men contradict those of the Buddha, who stands in contradiction to the teachers of Hinduism. Zoroastrianism and Mithraism are opposed to teach other, as well as to the religions and teachings above. They are beliefs that can't be reconciled unless you start denying key teachings - those ones which are 'offensive' and 'contradictory'.

I did say I am None of these, meaning I don't believe in their doctrines.

There is only one God.

From what I gather you don't actually believe the Bible

I said that I did believe the Bible. To which part do you refer ?

You have to admit that the resemblance of Mithraism and Christianity is remarkable.
Virgin birth ,Twelve followers ,Killing and resurrection ,Miracles ,Birthdate on December 25 ,Morality ,Mankind's savior and Known as the Light of the world.


djh22.

[Athanasius]

I did say I am None of these, meaning I don't believe in their doctrines.
There is only one God.

You absolutely believe in their doctrines. Not all of them, but some of them; bits and pieces of them. The problem is you rip the 'teacher' out of his context - regardless of the teacher in question - and you end up with a teacher of your own making. As it relates to Christianity; you believe in Jesus as you would have him speak, not as He actually spoke. The point of my post was to say that your criticism against 'Christian dogmatism' as it pertains to always wanting to put things into categories is misplaced. Not all categorization necessarily leads to or is dogmatism.

I said that I did believe the Bible. Which part do you refer to ?

djh22.

Believing some of the things in the Bible is not the same as believing the Bible. You deny the virgin birth. You deny Jesus is divine. You deny the atonement and incarnation. You deny the core message of scripture, whether it be the teachings of the Old Testament or of the New Testament. You accept some parts of the life of Christ while denying the others. In reality this is a denial of the whole. What power does the life of Christ really have if you're able to simply pluck and choose what's to be believed and taught and what isn't? Actually reminds me of John Shelby Spong...

In any case, tell me about the God you believe in?

Edit* Mithraism before the advent of Christianity was nothing like Christianity. Mithraism after the advent of Christian changed to resemble Christianity. The resemblance is only because the one (Mithraism) changed to fit to the other (Christianity).

[djh22]

[quote=Xel'Naga;2081799]
In any case, tell me about the God you believe in?
[quote]

I believe in the God of Abraham,the same as Jesus did.


djh22.