Christian dogmatism

[djh22]

Never mind the argument of who's right or wrong , I believe in what I choose to and you must believe in what you choose to be right for you.

The main point of this thread seems to have got lost along the way.
As I was trying to get across to Slug1 way back earlier is -

What difference does our personal faith make when we should all be trying to bring down these barriers and working together towards a better world for all mankind.
There are organisations that are doing just this right now where I live. Isn't this what God really wants us to do ?

djh22.

[diffangle]

Out of curiousity, are you a freemason?

[diffangle]

I believe that Jesus existed and that he taught us love,humility,the value of life,an understanding of some of the old scriptures and taught us some new.
I believe he brought the the rest of the world an understanding of God.

I don't believe he was the Messiah.

Then it seems like you think He is a liar too?

[Athanasius]

I believe in the God of Abraham, the same as Jesus did.

The 'God of Abraham' taught those things Jesus affirmed (especially through His life) and you deny. So, I think, whereas Jesus believed (as well as believed in and was a person of) the God of Abraham, you in reality do not. I don't mean this in any rude of confrontational way. However, to take a set of beliefs and then pick and choose from those beliefs, all this constitutes is belief in a system of your own making, rather belief in the system you've taken your beliefs from. You believe in the (somewhat ambiguous) 'God of Abraham' only in the image you've created him to be. The Resurrection; incarnation and atonement; the virgin birth... These are all revelations of the 'God of Abraham' in the Tanukh. As to why you don't believe them...

Never mind the argument of who's right or wrong , I believe in what I choose to and you must believe in what you choose to be right for you.

Our 'argument,' no matter its focus, will always be with respect to who's right and who's wrong. Whether or not this is explicitly mentioned. It doesn't have to be a pejorative argument, nor does it have to be any sort of ivory tower argument. Neither does their need to be any dogmatism, as you seem to be concerned about that. Make no mistake, though, it's a question forever in the background. You're allowed to believe whatever it is you wish to believe as I am. What I am concerned with, however, is what's true, regardless of how much I might like this truth. It's not a relative truth, it's an absolute truth.

The main point of this thread seems to have got lost along the way.
As I was trying to get across to Slug1 way back earlier is -

What difference does our personal faith make when we should all be trying to bring down these barriers and working together towards a better world for all mankind.
There are organisations that are doing just this right now where I live. Isn't this what God really wants us to do ?

djh22.

If Jesus rose from the dead, that makes a difference.
If in Jesus we find the incarnation and atonement, that makes a difference.
If Jesus was born of a virgin and divine, that makes a difference.
If Jesus died for your sins, that makes a difference.
If Jesus is judge and Lord of your life... That makes a difference.

Depending on who's holding true or false beliefs, what a difference personal belief makes.

Did Jesus command us to take care of the poor, widowed and downtrodden? Absolutely! But, He did so in light of eternity. We can work to bring down barriers and create a better world for all mankind (one way is the removal of sexist terms in language), whatever that means. However, this isn't the aim of the worlds religions. With eternity in view the religions of the world ask us to act. They all ask us to act in very different ways. Ways in which either one is right or all are wrong. What God really wants us to do is love Him, accept His Son and enter into relationship with Him. We don't do that by arbitrarily believing what we want, rejecting His Son and denying relationship with Him. Instead we become wrapped up in our own lives, attempting to 'make better' this world when in reality we can't - we ruined it, after all. We believe in the 'God of Abraham' while we worship the god of 'humanitarian efforts'. See, you've got half the message... You've removed the parts you find offensive. Ultimately, it's a lie.

[mcgyver]

Never mind the argument of who's right or wrong , I believe in what I choose to and you must believe in what you choose to be right for you.

The main point of this thread seems to have got lost along the way.
As I was trying to get across to Slug1 way back earlier is -

What difference does our personal faith make when we should all be trying to bring down these barriers and working together towards a better world for all mankind.
There are organisations that are doing just this right now where I live. Isn't this what God really wants us to do ?

djh22.

I hope that you don't mind...but I highlighted the paragraph that I would like to address in particular.

Firstly, "barriers" as you've termed them can not be broken down, because Christianity by definition is an exclusive faith that precludes acceptance of any other faith as either equal or valid.

Jesus said in John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Not "A" way, nor "A" truth, nor even yet "A" life...but "The way, truth, and life". Additionally He stated that there is no other way to God except through Jesus...and that's about exclusive as it gets.

As far as working together to make the world a better place for mankind being what God wants us to do...that's an interesting can of worms.

Surely, we as Christians are to demonstrate the love and compassion of Christ in all we do; yet our primary commission is to preach the Gospel...the good news that salvation and eternal life has come through Jesus Christ.

This world is rapidly passing away, and the time will come when it is no more. When that time comes, how then shall we work to make something better for mankind?

So then, our focus as Christians is primarily on the things of eternal value, yet not neglecting the physical needs of those who suffer (just the opposite in fact); but nowhere are we told that we should put aside our differences and "sing Kumbaya" together.

In fact we are told in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18:

Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“ I will dwell in them And walk among them.
I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”

Therefore

“ Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.”
“ I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty.”

[paidforinfull]

What difference does our personal faith make when we should all be trying to bring down these barriers and working together towards a better world for all mankind.
There are organisations that are doing just this right now where I live. Isn't this what God really wants us to do ?

djh22.

Hi djh22

You're either a Christian (and believe that Jesus and God is One, and that Jesus Christ is the Promised Messiah who came to Earth and died for our sins) or you're not.

You talk about breaking down 'these' barriers - could you please clarify which barriers you are referring to? If you are talking about 'barriers of faith', all I can say is that the barrier between Christians and non-Christians can never be broken down since it would require unScriptural compromise on our part.

(Christians are twice-born: once of flesh, and once more of Spirit. Though we are 'aliens and strangers' in this world, God calls upon us to be the 'salt of the earth'; to lead others to Christ and to lift Jesus up for all the world to see, and we have to do this in a way which will not compromise our faith in God in any way.)

Other barriers which does not involve 'personal faith' are not insurmountable, but we are talking about Christian 'dogmatism' in this thread, aren't we? (Does standing upon God's Word and obeying His commands make us dogmatic? hmmm If so - so be it.)

No matter what we do, fallen man cannot make this a 'better' world without the help and power of God (the Father, Son and Holy Ghost), since mankind on its own is very good at self-destruction. Anyway, the Bible makes it clear that this planet is not going to last forever, and that it will replaced by a 'new Earth' in the fullness of time.

As to your last question - No. Look at the following Scripture:

(Mt 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.)

Of course God desires peace, but He knows there can be no peace whilst the enemy is loose, and the war for men's souls is still being waged.

God bless.

[djh22]

Out of curiousity, are you a freemason?

No I'm not a freemason,although I was once invited to be but declined the offer.

djh22.

[djh22]

When I say Christian dogmatism I mean the absolute refusal to put aside religious differences for the common good,Because this is the way you all come across to me.
What I believe is between me and God,I will not try to change your beliefs so likewise I would hope you will respect my will to choose what I believe in .
The main thing is for all of us that work within the community for the betterment of all do so alongside others of different faiths forgetting their differences,this way we break down the barriers.
Where I live we have a voluntary organisation that does exactly that,it is run jointly by Christians,Muslims,Jews,Hindus,Sikhs and non believers alike,we all take turns in a community radio service,home visits,voluntary work and youth work.The other day an elderly man requested help in tidying his house and garden,4 guys volunteered to help,2 Jews a Muslim and a Christian, they all worked together to help the neighbour.
But you are all saying this is wrong and I just don't understand your attitude as so called Christians.

djh22.

[Slug1]

Such work can and will be the result of a relationship with Christ and will be used by God to lead the lost to Him by reaching out a helping hand but there is an element missing. When all that work you described is done and all the high-fives, hugs, and handshakes have been passed around... what of the eternal? What about Jesus... if He was in the equation the list wouldn't include all those faiths that have no faith in God through Jesus... the list of those helping would be united in Spirit and all calling themselves, Christian.

There's only one Body of Christ and those that serve God, through Jesus are in that Body of Christ.

The work we do for God, IF it's of our talents, all our natural abilities, from education, our training and experience, we achieve what you describe... only natural results and results as you speak of. BUT if we allow the Holy Spirit to enable us, empower us and our works are of divine achievements as the Lord uses us as vessels the results are supernatural and of God.

What will a group of people who serve their gods accomplish in the Name of Jesus Christ if there is no Jesus Christ in them?

Only what "they" want to accomplish, not what God wants to accomplish through them if His Spirit was in control.

We read in 1 Cor 2:1-5 and specifically v 4-5 that words can be great to listen to, contain tons of wisdom, motivate us... but in the end, do they heal us, minister to us, convict us?

Conviction is not in what you write about at all... otherwise the list would not include those of so many faiths seeking to serve God their way... if they all did it God's way, which is faith in ONLY Jesus Christ, the list would have only one name... Christians. Maybe different denominations, but not other faiths who worship a god, not God Almighty.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with helping people but what is the message we want to bring to people?

That those who serve Jesus can work along side those that don't? What does this example achieve if you look at it spiritually?

Or do we what to bring the message to others that Christ is our Savior and through Him, we can have a relationship with God Almighty?

That a bunch of people who were "ONCE" Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, are now ALL Christians due to the convicting and healing "power" of the Holy Spirit and they are now serving God in unity with all Christian brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Go out into a community as led by the Holy Spirit to do clean up and manual labor in a neighborhood THEN the same conviction and healing will be spread to others. The "fruit" is what God wants us to produce to give the Glory to Him... not to a bunch of people who serve different gods making themselves look good in the community cause that's the only thing produced since the Holy Spirit isn't involved and empowering the work.

Look at what you do spiritually. If it doesn't result in people seeing The Lord Almighty in your work then all it is, is your work... not God working through you. The Lord's work will result in people being brought to Him by the way of a relationship in Jesus Christ... that needs to be the fruit... and if this is being attempted by a group of people who serve their own god's... not gonna work spiritually cause the Holy Spirit isn't invited in to help such work accomplish the results God desires.

[djh22]

You can quote scripture and theology as much as you like. We have proved by working together the end result is a happier,cleaner and healthier community.
Since we formed in 2006 we have ended the distrust of Moslems and Jews in the community,we have almost put an end to youths hanging around on street corners because they now have something to do either volunteering,joining in with the youth centre or helping with the community radio.
All faiths are welcome to join in with each others services and celebrations,we have Jews studying Qu'ran and the new testament and Muslims studying Torah and the new testament ,we have proved it not only strengthens our faith but also promotes understanding.
We all believe this is what Gods work is all about.

djh22.

[paidforinfull]

You can quote scripture and theology as much as you like. We have proved by working together the end result is a happier,cleaner and healthier community.
Since we formed in 2006 we have ended the distrust of Moslems and Jews in the community,we have almost put an end to youths hanging around on street corners because they now have something to do either volunteering,joining in with the youth centre or helping with the community radio.
All faiths are welcome to join in with each others services and celebrations,we have Jews studying Qu'ran and the new testament and Muslims studying Torah and the new testament ,we have proved it not only strengthens our faith but also promotes understanding.
We all believe this is what Gods work is all about.

djh22.

Yes, what you are all doing is really good and wonderful, but it will not lead to lasting peace or salvation.

I write Christian Eco-poetry because the Bible teaches us that it is all of mankind's duty to be good stewards of Planet Earth. We can and should work together on issues such as this, but what Christians are saying is: please respect our faith and understand that no true reborn Christian would want to be forced into studying the Qu'ran etc. for the sake of achieving wonderful humanitarian goals, or to 'promote understanding or peace'.

Many Christians do study other faiths and religions anyway - we have to know what we are dealing with when witnessing to people of other religions, of course. No problem there. It doesn't mean we agree with their beliefs, though.

Christ commanded His followers to lead sinners to Him so that they might be saved. You are posting in a Christian forum (out of your own free will), and you do not want us to at least try and change your mind and convert you to Christianity. That is not possible - it is in our nature. We desire all people to come to know Him .

We do respect your beliefs, or course. We do not agree with you, but we will not disrespect you. And we pray that the Holy Spirit of God will convict you of the truth of His Son, Jesus the Christ.

God bless.

[djh22]

Thanks paidforinfull for that lovely reply,at last someone that see what we are collectively trying to achieve.

Yes, what you are all doing is really good and wonderful, but it will not lead to lasting peace or salvation.

Peace comes from the work we do and salvation comes through each persons individual faith,although we are a Multifaith organisation each person still follows his/her own faith,we don't pick the best bits from each faith and all agree to follow that way.

I write Christian Eco-poetry because the Bible teaches us that it is all of mankind's duty to be good stewards of Planet Earth. We can and should work together on issues such as this, but what Christians are saying is: please respect our faith and understand that no true reborn Christian would want to be forced into studying the Qu'ran etc. for the sake of achieving wonderful humanitarian goals, or to 'promote understanding or peace'. Many Christians do study other faiths and religions anyway - we have to know what we are dealing with when witnessing to people of other religions, of course. No problem there. It doesn't mean we agree with their beliefs, though.

Exactly right,we do the same,no one is forced into anything, we usually find that friendship comes first in the interest of the common good of the community, if anyone is interested in a colleagues faith then it is up to them,there is no evangelism.

We do respect your beliefs, or course. We do not agree with you, but we will not disrespect you. And we pray that the Holy Spirit of God will convict you of the truth of His Son, Jesus the Christ.
God bless.

I thank you for that.

May I congratulate you on the website and your wonderful Poetry,you have a wonderful gift,I am sooo envious.

God bless.

[Slug1]

Peace comes from the work we do

This peace will end the moment the person's life ceases though.

and salvation comes through each persons individual faith

Not if this faith is in a god and not in our Lord and through His Son, Jesus Christ.

though we are a Multifaith organisation each person still follows his/her own faith,we don't pick the best bits from each faith and all agree to follow that way.

Thus you are not working for the Body of Christ and all that is done is not by the leading of the Holy Spirit so it is then giving glory to all the gods all these people follow... there is no fruit to glorify the Lord and the Lord's work is not being done.

I'm sure the community is much better, cleaner, more organized and everyone has a smile on their face... but where is Jesus Christ?

No one is putting a smile on His face as He's left out of helping these people find the type of peace that will last for eternity and BEGINS when their life ceases.

Basically this is all that is happening... these people with faith in their god, this life will be their only peace and heaven they will ever experience and they are doing all they can to spread that oppression to others to keep others from everlasting peace while they smile... now.

If all this work you do was done and Jesus Christ was involved and all this was led by and empowered by the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ was brought out into the community... then this life will be the only hell they will ever experience.

Hell for a temporary period of time, or peace for eternity?

Peace for a temporary period of time, or hell for eternity?

What peace do you "REALLY" want to offer to people by your leading instead of the type of peace that the Holy Spirit wants to offer and use all ya's to get that type out to people as you lead Jesus Christ to all those in the community that don't know Him?

[Athanasius]

When I say Christian dogmatism I mean the absolute refusal to put aside religious differences for the common good, because this is the way you all come across to me. What I believe is between me and God, I will not try to change your beliefs so likewise I would hope you will respect my will to choose what I believe in.

The common good of whom? I'm sure it's an amazing and wonderful thing to see people living side by side 'peacefully' (after quieting all dissenters). However, how is this the common good if, for all the 'good' we've done here on earth, we end up eternally separated from God, all for the sake of not offending someone (especially when God will eventually renew creation regardless)? This isn't simply a Christian ideal, either. You still have to contend with the various conceptions of Hell in Islam and Sheol in Judaism. 'Believers' aren't working towards this 'common good' within their various faith communities. They are denying their faith, redefining their faith and ultimately becoming apostate to their faith.

I would like to work towards your 'common good', which means you not being eternally separated from God. As such, this means that while I respect what you believe in, I also believe it needs to change. It's rebellion.

The main thing is for all of us that work within the community for the betterment of all do so alongside others of different faiths forgetting their differences,this way we break down the barriers.
Where I live we have a voluntary organisation that does exactly that,it is run jointly by Christians,Muslims,Jews,Hindus,Sikhs and non believers alike,we all take turns in a community radio service,home visits,voluntary work and youth work.The other day an elderly man requested help in tidying his house and garden,4 guys volunteered to help,2 Jews a Muslim and a Christian, they all worked together to help the neighbour.
But you are all saying this is wrong and I just don't understand your attitude as so called Christians.

djh22.

It's not thinking with eternity in mind. If Christians, Jews and Muslims want to work together, side by side, that's fine, all the more power to them. However, if they 'ignore their differences' to the point of denying their convictions - especially the Christians - then that's a major problem. One they're going to have to answer for. If 'breaking down barriers' means denying the truth. Well, I wouldn't want part of that, regardless of the 'good' you think it's doing.

You can quote scripture and theology as much as you like. We have proved by working together the end result is a happier,cleaner and healthier community.

Since we formed in 2006 we have ended the distrust of Moslems and Jews in the community,we have almost put an end to youths hanging around on street corners because they now have something to do either volunteering,joining in with the youth centre or helping with the community radio.

All faiths are welcome to join in with each others services and celebrations,we have Jews studying Qu'ran and the new testament and Muslims studying Torah and the new testament ,we have proved it not only strengthens our faith but also promotes understanding.
We all believe this is what Gods work is all about.

djh22.

A happier, cleaner healthier community... That's headed for Hell. Regardless, and no offense, your community is not that clean knit. If the faith of these believers is strengthened by reading the religions texts of others religion... Well, I'd be hesitant to call them 'believers'. They're more like relativistic, post-modern Westerners. No power in anything anymore...

[djh22]

This peace will end the moment the person's life ceases though.

If that's what you believe then OK, it certainly isn't the view of my colleagues.

Not if this faith is in a god and not in our Lord and through His Son, Jesus Christ.

We don't believe in a God,we believe in The one and only God as did Jesus.

Thus you are not working in the "one" Body of Christ and all that is done is not by the leading of the Holy Spirit so it is then giving glory to all the gods all these people follow... there is no fruit to glorify the Lord and the Lord's work is not being done.

It most certainly is fruit to glory the Lord, the community is the proof.
You might not think it possible but with the exception of the Hindu and Sikh members we all believe in the same God.

I'm sure the community is much better, cleaner, more organized and everyone has a smile on their face... but where is Jesus Christ?

I don't know but I'm sure if he were alive today (in the physical sense) he would be in there with his sleeves rolled up doing something.

Basically this is all that is happening... these people with faith in their god, this life will be their only peace and heaven they will ever experience.
Hell for a temporary period of time, or peace for eternity?
Peace for a temporary period of time, or hell for eternity?

I'm really sorry you think this way.

What peace do you "REALLY" want to offer to people by your leading instead of the type of peace that the Holy Spirit wants to offer and use all ya's to get that type out to people?

I'm not the leader,just a volunteer like the rest,the group has been going since 2006 I joined 10 months ago,there is no leader as such,we take turns in Co-coordinating the work we do.As I said The Holy Spirit is with us and the community.

djh22.